overall werewolf abilities

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Vilkacis
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Post by Vilkacis »

Excelsia wrote:I know. I was generalizing. For example, there is no scientific law that says that a human would inevitably lose in every hand-to-hand battle with, say, a tiger or gorilla. But, there is no point in arguing that humans have any sort of chance against them whatsoever. (Knowing my luck, somebody will post an article of some freak coincidence in which a human went mano-a-mano against one of these and defeated it....and when I say defeat, I mean the human lives and the animal dies, if the animal gets annoyed an leaves it doesn't count.).
I seem to remember an article about a man who was in a field with a machete doing something or other. He was attacked by a Great Cat (I don't remember which kind). The interesting thing about this story is that as soon as he was attacked he dropped the machete and thrust his arm deep down the animal's throat and took hold of its tongue. I think he ended up ripping it up by the base. In any case, the struggle ended with the animal dead and the man relatively unharmed. If I recall, he was rather old, too.

Anyone remember this story? I think it was posted around here somewhere...

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Post by Vilkacis »

It was a leopard. He was 73. Here:
NAIROBI (Reuters) - A 73-year-old Kenyan grandfather reached into the mouth of an attacking leopard and tore out its tongue to kill it, authorities said on Wednesday.

Peasant farmer Daniel M'Mburugu was tending to his potato and bean crops in a rural area near Mount Kenya when the leopard charged out of the long grass and leapt on him.

M'Mburugu had a machete in one hand but dropped that to thrust his fist down the leopard's mouth. He gradually managed to pull out the animal's tongue, leaving it in its death-throes.

"It let out a blood-curdling snarl that made the birds stop chirping," he told the daily Standard newspaper of how the leopard came at him and knocked him over.

The leopard sank its teeth into the farmer's wrist and mauled him with its claws. "A voice, which must have come from God, whispered to me to drop the panga (machete) and thrust my hand in its wide open mouth. I obeyed," M'Mburugu said.

As the leopard was dying, a neighbour heard the screams and arrived to finish it off with a machete.

M'Mburugu was toasted as a hero in his village Kihato after the incident earlier this month. He was also given free hospital treatment by astonished local authorities.

"This guy is very lucky to be alive," Kenya Wildlife Service official Connie Maina told Reuters, confirming details of the incident.
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Post by Renorei »

Figures. :roll:

Despite freak coincidences like that, it's really not logical to argue that humans can hold their own with big predators. The overwhelming majority of bouts between animal and human will likely end with an animal victor. Also, I'd say that particular incident involved a significant amount of good fortune, and intervention by God as well. It's still rather safe to make a generalization that battles between humans and large predators result in animal victors. (And keep in mind, the numbers are skewed as well. In a small African village if somebody doesn't come back, no one will know what happened to them unless they find the remains. The predator sure isn't gonna go notify the villagers. However, you can bet any instance in which a human got the best of an animal like this, the entire county heard about it for the next ten years.)
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Post by Akela »

I beg to differ actually, your forgetting people have weapons. Give me an M-16 and I'll take on any three large predators. Even using simple tools would be fair as intelligence is a natural human so people using something like a spear is hardly less natural than an animal using its claws. Just IMHO
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Post by Apokryltaros »

Akela wrote:I beg to differ actually, your forgetting people have weapons. Give me an M-16 and I'll take on any three large predators. Even using simple tools would be fair as intelligence is a natural human so people using something like a spear is hardly less natural than an animal using its claws. Just IMHO
On the other hand, there is the use of common sense, and some people's lack thereof...
Things like, recognizing when you have an advantage, or not.
The leopard encounter reminded me of something I read in a book of "Darwin Awards," where a guy visiting a zoo in Amsterdam wondered whether or not a bear there was male or female. So, he climbed into the bear's enclosure (it was a moat dealie), and went up to the bear, and kicked the poor thing in the crotch.
Hard.
When Mister Bear recovered, he then proceded to maul the moron, who then died, as a result of his injuries.
The lesson is, kiddies, if you're going to kick something in the crotch, MAKE SURE IT STAYS DOWN AFTER YOU'RE THROUGH.
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Post by Lupin »

Excelsia wrote:Despite freak coincidences like that, it's really not logical to argue that humans can hold their own with big predators. The overwhelming majority of bouts between animal and human will likely end with an animal victor.
Well see, that just depends. One is more likely to hear of an animal attack when the human is injured then when they aren't. "Man encounters wild animal, shoots animal, animal dies." isn't going to make the news.
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Post by Renorei »

I was referring to hand to hand combat, people. True, intelligence is a natural thing, and we have a helluva lot more of it. But in a pure battle involving bodies only, humans fail, generally.
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Post by Vuldari »

Excelsia wrote:...And Vuldari, if you wouldn't mind, would you consider in the future not using tiny handwriting? I can read small just fine, but with tiny I have to open a word document or notepad and paste it in there, and that's just annoying. If you have something to say, don't be ashamed to say it loud and clear.
The point behind doing it that way was...I HAD to get that off my chast and say it...but I knew that if anyone read that right away (while tempers were still up) then that person would lash back about it rather than consider it more open-mndedly. So...I made it nearly invisable with the intention that NO ONE would notice that it was there for at least a day or two.

...and I still don't like the way you "generalize" by saying a human should NEVER win in a fair fight, bare fist to bare paw, against a werewolf.

All I'm looking for is the acknowlagement that it would be POSSIBLE...however unlikely.

Just admit that if 1000 Werwolves sparred with 1000 humans in a thousand seperate matches, that at least ONE human out of that thousand would be able to come out the victor. (Barring "freak accidents" and the bucket falling on it's head Bull #$%# you mentioned before.)

I would be able to agree with the odds of a Human winning against a werewolf to be < 5,000 / 1 ...but ZERO?! That's total Bull #$@#...
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Post by Lupin »

Excelsia wrote:I was referring to hand to hand combat, people. True, intelligence is a natural thing, and we have a helluva lot more of it. But in a pure battle involving bodies only, humans fail, generally.
Yes, but a human without a weapon doesn't tend to happen very often. We're very good at making weapons where none exist.
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Post by Renorei »

Vuldari wrote: All I'm looking for is the acknowlagement that it would be POSSIBLE...however unlikely.

Just admit that if 1000 Werwolves sparred with 1000 humans in a thousand seperate matches, that at least ONE human out of that thousand would be able to come out the victor. (Barring "freak accidents" and the bucket falling on it's head Bull #$%# you mentioned before.)

I would be able to agree with the odds of a Human winning against a werewolf to be < 5,000 / 1 ...but ZERO?! That's total Bull #$@#...
Calm down. All right, it's possible. Extremely, extremely unlikely, but perhaps it could happen.

Though I still think that some sort of strange stroke of luck would be the more likely cause for a human winning against a werewolf than just fighting ability.

But, whatever. A human could win in a fair battle against a werewolf, though it would, as you said, hardly ever happen.
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Post by Vilkacis »

Ya' all are bein' silly.

Pit an unarmed human against one of Apokryltaros' werewolves, and 0 out of 5000 is easily possible.

Pit an unarmed human against a Teen Wolf-like werewolf, and your odds may even go the other way.

What's the point of trying to force an admission out of someone else when your assumptions don't even match up?

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Post by Apokryltaros »

Vilkacis wrote:Ya' all are bein' silly.

Pit an unarmed human against one of Apokryltaros' werewolves, and 0 out of 5000 is easily possible.

Pit an unarmed human against a Teen Wolf-like werewolf, and your odds may even go the other way.

What's the point of trying to force an admission out of someone else when your assumptions don't even match up?

-- Vilkacis
I wouldn't say that: My lycanthropes can be easily defeated, like, say, immersing them in acid, dropping a piano on them, poison, running them over with a truck.
Simple stuff, really, and you don't even have to use holy water, or magic.
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Post by Vuldari »

Okay...I think I need to explain myself.

First off, I am so glad to see that no one was personally offended by my anger-toned message. I posted it quickly before rushing off to work, and I did not even take the time to second guess my words.
(I greatly discourage the use of profanity...even bleeped out profanity, as I feel they convey nothing but irrational anger and serve no good purpose, so I am really dissapointed in myself for phrasing my opinion so harshly.)

Now...I've been dwelling on this topic all day while at work, trying to figure out why I've gotten so worked up about it, and I eventually figured out the answer.

When it comes to the question of whether or not a Human can hold his/her own against a werewolf (or a bear or a cougar), it is not really the interpretation of the werewolf that I was getting so worked up about. It was the HUMAN factor.

...as it just so happens...
I AM HUMAN
...and it means very much to me to maintain the belief that, as a Human, I am capable of great things.
Excelsia wrote:In all of my previous posts, all I wanted was werewolves who can defeat all human foes. That hardly constitutes invincibility. Tigers, elephants, gorillas, grizzly bears, and male buffaloes are all capable of destroying any human in hand-to-hand combat (you know what I mean) but that doesn't make them invincible. None of these creatures are even remotely invincible. My vision of werewolves would have been that they could defeat all humans, but not all animals in general. Sure, they could hold their own against a lion, tiger, or bear, but not necessarily. Anyway, those are my thoughts on werewolf 'invincibility'. Invincible to humans (in hand to hand) but not invincible overall.

And yes, it is very very hard for me to let go of the idea that werewolves can defeat all humans. I find the idea of a human defeating a werewolf almost offensive. To me, that'd be like some guy saying "Yeah, I took down a bear last week." ...If indeed this occurs, I think it should be coupled with a lot of good fortune on the human's part. I want the audience to think, "Well, that human guy is pretty strong, but if that bucket hadn't fallen on that werewolf's head he might be dead." Luck should play a factor (IMO) in a battle in which a human beats a werewolf, not merely fighting prowess.
I also happen to find it very offensive to have it suggested that, being a human, I am a puny helpless weakling who is no threat whatsoever to the next nearest competitors at the top of the food chain, unless some "freak accident" happens to occur to defeat my opponent for me.

I know this is not true, and am confused as to why you are so eager and insistant to classify your own species as physically helpless.

(The average human being has enough strength in their body to break a lions or a bears bones with well placed blows, almost as easily as they can break those of another human. Though, admitably, a humans agility may not be as great as many preditors, it is not so far inferior that they would be incapable of outmanuvering those creatures, especially with our superior capacity to anticipate the creatrues movements, and knowlage of the effects of momentum on a swift moving body.
...and, (though I am definately "reaching" here), though the strength in the human jaw is but a small fraction of that of a Wolf or Bear or great Cat, if driven to it, a human is capable of ripping live flesh from a crature with thier teeth.

In nature, the bigger fish almost allways eats the smaller fish, and the bigger predetor nearly allways pushes the smaller ones around, but when human-like inteligence becomes involved, this "rule of thumb" no longer ramains as valid. The Neanderthals were bigger and stronger than the Cro-Magnon species of pre-humans but it was the smaller Cro-Magnons who went on to survive and become our ancestors. (If you beleive in evolution. If not...well...I guess I'm just talking nonsense to you...)

In the Human world, it is far less often true that the bigger, stonger opponent will more often come out the victor in combat. More often it is the one who fights "smarter" who comes out victorious.

Therefore...if you take an ordinary human...make them bigger, stronger, faster and give them claws and sharp teeth...thier only advantage remains their Brute Strength, while the inteligence remains equal between them and their Human opponent.

Granted...and "Advantage" is still an "Advantage", and this will enevitably lead to a greater rate of success on the part of the Werwolves. However, so long as a werwolves bones are not made of unbreakable Adamantium, and bloodloss still is a weakening condition, and their bodies nervous system is still succeptable to "blunt force trama" (blow to the back of the head/Neck...strike at the knees, elbows, shoulderblades, tail-bone...and all of the other vunerable joints and pressure points that exist on EVERY vertibrate mammal on the planet.), then it would be possible for an "average" human to take a werwolf down.

...as unlikely as it would be for one of us to do so before we got our guts sliced open, it would be possible.
)


...long story short (Too Late), I am not trying to contest the notion that werwolves should be powerful, fearsome beings.

What I AM trying to do is reinforce the notion that "regular humas" Are in-fact formidable fighters...even when un-armed.

It is a Matter of Pride.
...we stand at the top of the food chain for a reason. How could we have stayed here so long if we were so uttlerly helpless?
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Post by Figarou »

hmmmm.....




This is a true event in kick boxing. Kickboxer#1 tries to kick #2. #2 blocks with the knee. #1 breaks his leg and falls down. All what #2 did was block the kick with his knee and managed to break #1's leg!!


A human can get lucky if that type of situation happened when fighting a werewolf.



Also, humans and animals has weak points. You just need to know where it is. Will a sleeper hold work on a werewolf? Only one way to find out. :wink:
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Post by Apokryltaros »

Figarou wrote:
Also, humans and animals has weak points. You just need to know where it is. Will a sleeper hold work on a werewolf? Only one way to find out. :wink:
Do you know how awkward it is to lug around a matress in a fight?
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Post by Shadow Wulf »

In a upfront hand to hand combat, a human can beat a werewolf, with luck and skills, but its still a very slim chance which you dont want to take unless your left with no other choice. The thing about us humans that outpower animals is that we are smarter and know how to improvise in situations and try to make the tables turn on our enemies. If your being hunted down by a lion then you should try to buld traps, or climb trees and jump on to other trees, at this rate the lion will have trouble going after you cause thier not made for jumping tree to tree(like monkeys :D ). Ofcourse a werewolf is a different case sense they posses the human mind which makes them twice as more deadlier than humans, they can think, they know how to avoid traps, they can try to use your own traps agients you, they know how to do thing and when to do it. Now the thing is that we dont know if a werewolf would have some kind of rage that can affect thier thinking, if they do then you have an advantage cause that will affect thier way of thinking. So theres all sorts of ups and downs.
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Post by Renorei »

I have never said that humans are physically helpless. But, we are physically much weaker than many other species. The reason I am ok with that is because we more than make up for it with intelligence. We 'freaking rule the world. But not because our bodies are even remotely impressive, when compared to many other creatures in the world.

A human vs. werewolf/lion/tiger/bear/shark battle would almost always end up with an animal victor, in hand to hand, simply because we are not nearly as physically powerful as they are.

It is, however, our intelligence that lets us rule the world, that lets us dominate every other species. We do not rule with our hands. We rule with our minds.

That is why I am ok with not exalting the physical prowess of humans. Frankly, I don't care about our bodies. It is our minds which concern me.

Anyway, so that's my take on the issue. I am just as proud to be human as you are. But not because of my body. It is because of my mind. :D


And don't worry about the cursing. It's cool. Everyone gets a little hotheaded now and then.
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Post by Figarou »

Apokryltaros wrote:
Figarou wrote:
Also, humans and animals has weak points. You just need to know where it is. Will a sleeper hold work on a werewolf? Only one way to find out. :wink:
Do you know how awkward it is to lug around a matress in a fight?


Not if you have a sleeping bag. Just pull that out, get in and take a nap.
That werewolf will run away screaming!!


:scream: Ahhhhhhh!!!!! Sleeping human!! Must run away before he gets a hold of me!!!


*yawns* :yawn: To late. ZzzzzzzzZzzzzzzz
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Post by Vuldari »

Excelsia wrote:I have never said that humans are physically helpless. But, we are physically much weaker than many other species. The reason I am ok with that is because we more than make up for it with intelligence. We 'freaking rule the world. But not because our bodies are even remotely impressive, when compared to many other creatures in the world.

A human vs. werewolf/lion/tiger/bear/shark battle would almost always end up with an animal victor, in hand to hand, simply because we are not nearly as physically powerful as they are.

It is, however, our intelligence that lets us rule the world, that lets us dominate every other species. We do not rule with our hands. We rule with our minds.

That is why I am ok with not exalting the physical prowess of humans. Frankly, I don't care about our bodies. It is our minds which concern me.

Anyway, so that's my take on the issue. I am just as proud to be human as you are. But not because of my body. It is because of my mind. :D


And don't worry about the cursing. It's cool. Everyone gets a little hotheaded now and then.
Yes..."weaker"..."not as powerful" in comparison...

..."Usually" lose in a dirrect physical stand off, but not allways.

A human would have to either be stupid or extremely desperate to attempt to tackle a large predator of any type with thier bare hands, as the chances of survival would be frighteningly low. (though, by our nature, we rarely would attempt such a thing. "Tools" are as natural for us as a wolves claws, so a human would surely grab a club, sharp object or some other aide before engaging a dangerous foe.)

...and though YOU may find the idea of a Werewolf being taken down by a human "bare handed" as an insult to Werewolves, I personally LOVE rooting for the underdog.

It would be like...

*Human looks at own fists, throbbing from the pain of the fractured bones inside, raw and soaked in thier own blood from pounding on the rock hard hide of the werewolf that now lay unconcous at his feet. His eyes stare wide open in utter disbelief at what had just traspired*


"...No %$#*ing WAY!... Did I just *&%#@$ do what I think I did?! ...this CAN'T be real..."

*drops to his knees, partially in prayer to whatever god just saved him, and partially becasue of feeling faint from blood loss.*


...*...Oh...and I beleive that it is the dexterity of the Human hand, Combined with our intelligence that makes us so unique. Raccoons and Baboons have the hands...and Dolphins have the smarts...but only WE have Both.
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Post by Renorei »

Vuldari wrote: ...*...Oh...and I beleive that it is the dexterity of the Human hand, Combined with our intelligence that makes us so unique. Raccoons and Baboons have the hands...and Dolphins have the smarts...but only WE have Both.
If it weren't for the intelligence, we wouldn't know what to do with the hands. However, if we didn't have the hands, we could still utilize the intelligence, except that it would be in completely different ways.

(I have no proof of this and I really don't want to get into a whole other debate about human and animal intelligence, but I seriously doubt that dolphins are as smart as we are.)


*sigh* As much as I have enjoyed debating with you, Vuldari, I'd like to give it a rest. We have differing opinions, to which each of us are entitled, and there's nothing wrong with that. Truce?
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Post by Apokryltaros »

Excelsia wrote: If it weren't for the intelligence, we wouldn't know what to do with the hands. However, if we didn't have the hands, we could still utilize the intelligence, except that it would be in completely different ways.

(I have no proof of this and I really don't want to get into a whole other debate about human and animal intelligence, but I seriously doubt that dolphins are as smart as we are.)
Colin Tudge, in his books, "Variety of Life," and "Day Before Yesterday," suggests that it's because of the combined might of an enlarged brain coupled with prehensile hands that humans are the de-facto rulers of this world...
He suggests that if a codfish were to have been born with the intellect of Jane Austin, it wouldn't survive to long, given as how it would have no way of communicating its thoughts to other codfish (given as how the average codfish is as intelligent as a goldfish), no way of transcribing its thoughts, either, and that maintaining an enlarged brain is very costly.
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Post by Renorei »

Apokryltaros wrote: Colin Tudge, in his books, "Variety of Life," and "Day Before Yesterday," suggests that it's because of the combined might of an enlarged brain coupled with prehensile hands that humans are the de-facto rulers of this world...
He suggests that if a codfish were to have been born with the intellect of Jane Austin, it wouldn't survive to long, given as how it would have no way of communicating its thoughts to other codfish (given as how the average codfish is as intelligent as a goldfish), no way of transcribing its thoughts, either, and that maintaining an enlarged brain is very costly.

Many humans who do not have hands or cannot use them still manage to do very well without having them (many of them living completely independent of others.

Also, if it were only one codfish, I'd say that I agree with you. But, if it were all codfish, it'd be a completely different story, I think.

True, animals would have more difficulty utilizing their intelligence without hands. But, I have no doubt they could find a way. All tools, transcribed writing, and forms of communication would be different. The animals would design them in such a way as to suit themselves, in ways that we cannot even begin to imagine.
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Post by Apokryltaros »

Excelsia wrote:
Many humans who do not have hands or cannot use them still manage to do very well without having them (many of them living completely independent of others.

Also, if it were only one codfish, I'd say that I agree with you. But, if it were all codfish, it'd be a completely different story, I think.

True, animals would have more difficulty utilizing their intelligence without hands. But, I have no doubt they could find a way. All tools, transcribed writing, and forms of communication would be different. The animals would design them in such a way as to suit themselves, in ways that we cannot even begin to imagine.
What he meant, was that, if a single cod were miraculously endowed with an intellect comparable to that of an award-winning author's mind, dollars to donuts are that that particular cerebrally-enhanced cod isn't going to amount to much, given as how other codfish are incapable of comprehending metaphor, and how we humans don't speak codfish.
People without hands are still able to communicate with people, with speech, or the ability to use writing implements without needing hands (either with their feet or their mouths). I'm not saying that these people are incapable of living an independent life, I'm trying to say that as a whole, it is a combination of our intellect and our hands that lead us to world domination.
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Post by Renorei »

I still don't think hands are necessary for world domination, though they are helpful. Besides, my original point was that we don't rule with our hands, but rather with our minds. The hand is merely a tool of the mind. The mind is not a tool of the hand.
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Post by Apokryltaros »

Excelsia wrote:I still don't think hands are necessary for world domination, though they are helpful. Besides, my original point was that we don't rule with our hands, but rather with our minds. The hand is merely a tool of the mind. The mind is not a tool of the hand.
Without hands, we would have been unable to do things like utilize, or even make tools.
Our hands allowed us to manipulate our environment, and I assure you, we wouldn't be where we are today if we couldn't do things like pick rocks and throw them at wild animals.
I mean, let's see you practice horticulture or hunt wild elk without fingers.
I don't mean you as a werewolf, I mean, person-you.
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