Real Werewolves, are they out there.

[Gevaudan]

I voted "Yes" for a few reasons.

1 - Weird stuff is real. The world does not exist quite as we believe it to. The fact that you can use two mathematical truths to prove that 1=2 is a fantastic example. There was also a time in which we were positive that the atom was the smallest thing in existence. This doesn't begin to be enough to make one believe in werewolves however it is enough to make one open to the idea that our reasons why they cannot exist aren't as absolute as they may seem which means that it may be possible for werewolves to exist outside our tiny sphere of understanding.

2 - World-wide agreement. There are myths about werewolves and like creatures all over the world. Again, not enough to act as evidence but enough to make one wonder if there is a reason beyond "people turning into animals makes for way cool myths."

3 - "Belief." Belief is merely an opinion which is not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof. An opinion is simply a personal idea, which is why it doesn't have to be valid to anyone else.

I fully acknowledge that there's nothing in there to make most other people believe in werewolves, however between my spiritual convictions, personal theories, and life experiences, it's enough for me to believe.

Okay, in response to each of your reasons, Rasah:

1. Most of us on here don't insist that they can't exist; we just state the facts as we see them. The only conclusion most have drawn from this is that it's extremely unlikely. The possibility is still there though, and I hope that most of us are open to it. Also, our sphere of understanding isn't as small as it may seem; science is constantly learning more every waking minute of every day, with a pretty large, reliable stockpile of information already behind it.

2. This argument demonstrates the fallacy of appeal to belief. Like you said, not enough to act as evidence, but yes, it does make one wonder.

3. Belief is a sensitive subject, so I'm not going to be the one to put it under scrutiny. Just be careful.

Welcome to the Pack, by the way! Tell us more about yourself in the Introductions forum.

[RedEye]

DO they or DON'T they...

Here's something that is still chewing on my tail, and will be for four more months.
Physics is a discipline of Mathematics, the science of Description.
Physics said that there were ten (10) dimensions, period. Most of these dimensions last for less than a tenth/millisecond; some last only a few pico-seconds.
The MATH worked. Nicely.
Then some nutbars came up with eleven dimensions, not ten. I stayed with the majority and said ten dimensions.
Turns out there really are eleven, and all of us were wrong. And I'm still paying off a "sucker" bet: one fancy meal a month at an expensive restaurant.

Now, your task: Apply above to: subj:Werewolves.

[Wingman]

Hmm, talking about the dimensions reminds me of my last math class, and talking about what a 3D sphere would look like while passing through a 2D area, and how to draw 3D representations of 4D objects. The coolest rectangle I will ever lay eyes on.

Really, this topic is mostly a matter of faith, and what you choose to see as proof. A guy runs into a burning building to save a baby, some people choose to take that as proof that their deity of choice exists and engineered their rescue, others might choose to believe that their rescuer was a werewolf.
Maybe an animal barking or howling wakes you up in time to notice that your house is on fire, and you might choose to believe that it was a werewolf or something. It can really apply to anything at all, just like how being a witch used to be able to apply to everything.

[Fallenwolf]

I think that there are werewolfs out there. i like the dimensions talk. im not the kind that thinks the gov. hideing stuff but i can tell you there is unexplaned things out there. i go on the fish found said to be gone for 10,000 years. i still think it could be true.my other thought is that if it is not true with the new resurch of genetics sune there may be wolf man hybrid thats just my take.

[Gevaudan]

The coolest rectangle I will ever lay eyes on.

How about a rotating tesseract?



Or a ten-dimensional hypercube?



I think I just broke the Internet.

[wolfward]

I completely agree with outwarddoodles. Nuff' said.

[wolfward]

Hasn't any one considered the existence of werewolves on other planets? They could be watching as we speak.....but then that's only a dream I had during english. Theoraticly speaking...werewolves are all around us. They could be your next door neighbor. Or your best friend or something....I'm just saying werewolves as well as other shapeshifters are masters of disguise. So next you look at someone you don't know sitting next to you....try talking to them. See if they let slip a few hints.....It's worth a try. Go for it.

[Thunderclaw]

Hasn't any one considered the existence of werewolves on other planets? They could be watching as we speak.....but then that's only a dream I had during english. Theoraticly speaking...werewolves are all around us. They could be your next door neighbor. Or your best friend or something....I'm just saying werewolves as well as other shapeshifters are masters of disguise. So next you look at someone you don't know sitting next to you....try talking to them. See if they let slip a few hints.....It's worth a try. Go for it.

I am with Wolfward on this. Apart from the fact we shared the theory before this website was even noticed by us, it is the most likely theory we have came up with. It would also be possible for others to exist on Earth, after all, the transformation is an ultimate disguise to the world.

[IndianaJones]

A werewolf posing in alternate normal human form can be sitting or standing in front of you in public! They can be fool you very easily.

[RedEye]

Hmm, talking about the dimensions reminds me of my last math class, and talking about what a 3D sphere would look like while passing through a 2D area, and how to draw 3D representations of 4D objects. The coolest rectangle I will ever lay eyes on.

A 3-D Sphere in a 2-D space would look like a circle. Don't forget the tame spacewarps you can handle: like a Moebius strip (has no depth or thickness, only length and width).
Then there is a Klein Flask, where the inside is the outside in three apparent, but unreal, dimensions. Add in Duration (Einstein's 4th Dimension) and it's a three-dee object in a four-dee space.
And the Hypercube (Tesseract) is nicely done, but writing the animation for it must have been crazy making. As for the ten-dee hypercube, remember, there are ELEVEN dimensions, not ten; and I still have two dinners to buy because of it.

[Kaebora]

According to string theory, there are eleven dimensions with a missing twelvth dimension. The 12th dimension hasn't been proven by mathmatics yet due to a lot of anomolies in the math, but supposedly if the five theories of string theory can be tied together by this 12th dimension, it can finally link together Quantum and Relative physics and give us the elusive "Theory of Everything". So for now the 12th dimension is just a hypothesis.

I fancy myself as a an amature conceptual physicist. I imagine the way the theories work in terms of visual imagry. I see this 12th dimension as the space existing between the bubbles of universes in the time-space foam. It causes universes to inflate, collapse, appear and disappear. It's what might even make our universe to appear as if it exists for a fraction of a second to a universe outside of our own on the other side of the 12th dimension.

The 12th dimension theory first brings to mind that an omnipresent God could still exist. Our universe is so very finely tuned for the existance of life that we figure it as an astronomical proboblility of such a universe's creation occuring. The second thing this brings to mind is that if a universe nearly identical to this one finished its star cycle and began to enter its super black hole stages, an advanced civilization may have escaped it by expanding a bubble universe to be identical and livable to escape to.

12th dimensional theory is yummy but all just speculation as far as I can tell.


And now back to your regularly scheduled topic...[/derail]

[W'rkncacnter]

Ahhh...super string theory. Let the college physics major speak!

Here's what I know. Beyond atoms and the subatomic particles which compose them (quarks and gluons), physicists have theorized that there is a hyper-subatomic particle whose behavior allows for a fusion of the behavior of objects of very large mass (planets and stellar bodies) and very small mass (the aforementioned quarks and gluons).

Planets and stellar bodies are moved by their own enormous momentum and the force of gravity, which is directly related to mass and has virtually no energy input. Small bodies, on the other hand, have virtually no mass, and their behavior is determined by electromagnetism, heat, and several other difficult-to-pronounce factors that have to do with atomic and subatomic structure. The problem arises when you try to relate these two sets of behaviors together; the way these two 'realms' of physics work are almost completely different!

Some physicists think that there must be some minimum object, some absolute bottom-end structure of simplicity, whose behavior dictates the movement and interactions of all matter. The current theory in this concept is super string theory, which states (in a nutshell) that every thing is made of minute 'strings' of probability and energy, whose movement and interaction falls into as many as ten different planes of collision, hence the ten dimensions concept.

The problem is that there is no way to test this. Any thing beyond the atom is too unstable and fast moving (thanks to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle) for it's existence to be quantified beyond the realm of theoretical mathematics. Because of this, many physicists say that speculation on string theory is pointless; what use is a hypothesis if you can't test it?

Other physicists think that the structure of the universe has logarithmic complexity; there is no final particle. As an old lady who whacked Carl Sagan with a cane once said, 'It's turtles all the way down!'

Hehe...I just wanted to say all that regardless of relevance. Now, on to what this thread is actually about!

I think that while anything is possible in this universe of ours, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. I am closed to the statement that werewolves exist without definitive proof, and even then I would only accept such a claim if it made more sense to accept it than to doubt it (which seems to be a no-brainer, but you'd be surprised how often this basic rule of logic is ignored). To quote Rick Blaine, 'When you get there, ask me.'

[wolfie]

me personaly I voted yes my reasons are long and a bit to personal for a genral forum so I will simply say.
"some things must be believed before thay can be seen"

[Thunderclaw]

me personaly I voted yes my reasons are long and a bit to personal for a genral forum so I will simply say.
"some things must be believed before thay can be seen"

Very true. Life would be easy if everything you believed in you had seen. The true believers wouldn't need to see it, and that's what makes them special.

[Wolf Gal]

i think that werewolves r real because........................
im one that is why i go on this web site to see if i am not alone...

[RedEye]

MODERATOR'S WARNING

For this Board's purposes, there are NO actual metamorphic HomoLupan Beings. As in, no matter WHAT you are, there are no Werewolves!

The reason is simple. If (let's say for convenience) Werewolves actually existed, they would be in hiding from the greater number of single-form Humans on this planet, and perhaps in danger if found out.
As a matter of simple respect for individual privacy, this board has the policy that Werewolves don't exist outside of fiction and fantasy. That is polite. If they did exist, and they wanted a change in that policy...
Well, we'd find out; wouldn't we?

[Mr_Atrox]

MODERATOR'S WARNING

The reason is simple. If (let's say for convenience) Werewolves actually existed, they would be in hiding from the greater number of single-form Humans on this planet, and perhaps in danger if found out.

Precisely.

Good observations

[Scott Gardener]

Based on present day science, I might suggest that it's highly probable that werewolves exist somewhere, but highly improbable that they exist here.

Somewhere: given the prospect of an infinite universe that is expanding faster than the speed of light, then there's more universe beyond what we can ever hope to reach. If space is infinite, then one can only arrange all the matter in known space, a total of some 10 to the 80th power protons, neutrons, and electrons, give or take a base-10 logarithmic factor of 2, in a finite number of ways before one runs out of different possible configurations. This suggests that somewhere beyond known space, beyond the event horizon 13.6 billion light years away at which the universe is receding away faster than we can ever hope to catch up, could be an infinite number of alternate us-es, at least some of which are werewolves. All this assumes infinite space, which requires a flat or outward-curving universe, as opposed to a hyperspherical one. Evidence right now is leaning in favor of a flat one. But, then again, they said the same thing about Earth once.

Now, as to why we probably aren't the lucky ones, it also boils down to probability mechanics...

If one wants to be a werewolf one's self, one has to hope for a form of lycanthropy that is contagious--the ever popular "bite me" kind of lycanthropy. But, since a werewolf would have a decided survival advantage over a non-lycanthropic human, werewolves would be selectively favored over time. It would only take a few centuries before an outbreak of lycanthropy made werewolves overtake regular humans. Regular humans could suppress werewolves maybe for awhile, but not for hundreds of thousands or millions of years, especially since we didn't even have an organized society until some 15-12,000 years ago, and pretty loose even then. If contagious werewolves existed on Earth, we'd all be werewolves by now.

[Gevaudan]

Based on present day science, I might suggest that it's highly probable that werewolves exist somewhere, but highly improbable that they exist here.

Somewhere: given the prospect of an infinite universe that is expanding faster than the speed of light, then there's more universe beyond what we can ever hope to reach. If space is infinite, then one can only arrange all the matter in known space, a total of some 10 to the 80th power protons, neutrons, and electrons, give or take a base-10 logarithmic factor of 2, in a finite number of ways before one runs out of different possible configurations. This suggests that somewhere beyond known space, beyond the event horizon 13.6 billion light years away at which the universe is receding away faster than we can ever hope to catch up, could be an infinite number of alternate us-es, at least some of which are werewolves. All this assumes infinite space, which requires a flat or outward-curving universe, as opposed to a hyperspherical one. Evidence right now is leaning in favor of a flat one. But, then again, they said the same thing about Earth once.

Now, as to why we probably aren't the lucky ones, it also boils down to probability mechanics...

If one wants to be a werewolf one's self, one has to hope for a form of lycanthropy that is contagious--the ever popular "bite me" kind of lycanthropy. But, since a werewolf would have a decided survival advantage over a non-lycanthropic human, werewolves would be selectively favored over time. It would only take a few centuries before an outbreak of lycanthropy made werewolves overtake regular humans. Regular humans could suppress werewolves maybe for awhile, but not for hundreds of thousands or millions of years, especially since we didn't even have an organized society until some 15-12,000 years ago, and pretty loose even then. If contagious werewolves existed on Earth, we'd all be werewolves by now.

Nice observations Scott. I agree that there is the possibility of that happening, but I have a couple of comments:

1. How is the universe expanding at faster than the speed of light? Wouldn't that take an infinite amount of energy (E = mc squared), and wouldn't that mean that the universe is traveling backward in time?

2. If there are alternate universes that have a form of lycanthropy, and if we can somehow reach them, we need to be careful that we don't accidentally visit any antiuniverses with antimatter. Imagine getting bit by an antiwerewolf: both of you would explode in a flash of light and be annihilated!

[blackwolfhell]

Well...have you all been thinking about alternate universes? I read a book where dragons can change into humans by expelling their size into an alternate universe, like a closet. Or maybe werewolves just create a new skin everytime they change and shed it when they go back to being human? In my opinion, they can exist. The catholic church say demons and spirits exist, why not this?

[Shingmanituu]

I posted 'yes'.I have no doubt that ''werewolves'' COULD exsist.
I think its possible,just not 'proven'. The human race finds new ''species'' every day.And because 'real werewolves' as in the shapechanging kind,may appear human to everyone,no one 'looks' for them in human populus.They may be so well concealed in the human race,that they may never be found unless they want to be.(wich would be rather foolish,given MOST human reactions to things they cannot understand) and other species mimic and metamophose,so it is theoreticly possible.We actually,as humans, turn on and off multiple genes a day,resulting in physical(phermone,hormone and behavioural) differances.We mimic as well, as we ''mirror'' others moods, behaviours and reactions,we try to ''look'' catlike when we wear fabrics with a leopard or tiger prints to mimic their ''catty'' appearance.

I also want to point out that the term 'real werewolves',can be hard to define...........as a 'Real werewolf' is a man and a wolf combined.It doesnt specify HOW it is combined,or what the 'criteria' is of the ''real werewolf's'' mixture of man and wolf. If we take it rather literal, meaning ''man and wolf'' through the translation of the word, werewolf,on a linguistic level (wer-man and wolf-wolf) it signifies a 'mixture' of the two species..........Humans are a 'visual' species,so it is 'natural' to desire/preceive that ''werewolves'' should be 'visually' transformed,to be catagorised as 'not human',thus to be werewolves.We along with most primates recognise 'like species' visually.Face/anatomical recognition is the major form of human species recognition.Anything that looks human and doesnt change,is preceived human. in essance......A human ''cant'' be anything like a werewolf'' if the flesh remains the likeness of a human.To often we forget we have non superficial selves and our psyche is one of these overlooked places.Mentally, humans can be 'werewolves''. Example.........
A were-wolf could be a body of a man ''mixed'' with the mind,spirit,thought or behaviour/instincts of a wolf. This would still imply a ''mixture'' of man and wolf,without a physical mergeing of the two.So yes, i beleive werewolves most commonly exsist in this manner,though i do NOT rule out the possibility of shapechangers.

[John Wolf]

I don't know if it's possible for some sort of physical transformation, though they are not likely to come on here or anywhere else (the real types) since they would right away be traced by goverment agencies, captured and disected alive.

humans can really suck, the goverment anyhow.....

[WolfeGuardian]

For years I've always wanted to say yes, say there can be some people with characteristics of a werewolf and such, anyhow at the moment i am saying yes for my own reasons and view on things.

[DarkOriaes]

I believe that it is possible. Because for every Legend, for every Myth. It stems from the truth, from a fact. You see too much information as well as hear enough stories of lore to think that it just wasn't made up on a whim.

[blackwolfhell]

but we can take many things in the world and say their real, like universal healthcare.