Werewolf MUSTS

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
Mr_Lycos
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Post by Mr_Lycos »

I strongly disagree with your comment, as the CG in Jurassic Park was superb.
Assuming the washed-out look of superimposed dinosaurs is your idea of "superb" then yes. Otherwise all of the up close work in JP was done by means of animatronic.

I will further explain my previous claim "There is no such thing as good CG".

Of course computer enhanced imagery has its place in films. Altering backgrounds, correcting for lighting or shadow detail, adding extra dusts/debris/splatter in complex action shots, adjusting colour, removing wires, et cetera.

The one area in which CG should NOT be used is in creating whoely digital characters. Computer technology is not currently able to create characters that can blend seamlessly with "on camera". The color-coding is always off (most CG creatures tend to have a greyish tone to them), the actors have nothing to react to (Some scenes in LOTR:ROTK had some ridiculous physical acting when trying to compensate for a CG gollum), Higher display technology further seperate the CG from the "real" (a fact further hampered by computers lack of 24FPSFR).

Filmmakers were crafting wonderful and "real" monsters decades ago. The Howling, The Thing, Tales from the Darkside, An American Werewolf in London, Dagon, Dracula (the 1992 version in this case), Alien, Aliens, and hundreds of other films actually produced a real physical monster on camera that actors and audiences could relate to. And they still look good when viewed today.

One possible good use of CG is editing two usable pieces of analog monster together. A man in a suit isn't able to have the "backwards" knees that many people want on a werewolf, use of CG could take animatronic, or puppetry Legs and graft that piece of film onto a "guy in suit" torso with a robot head.

CG is a tool. Don't make it your crutch.
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Post by Mr_Lycos »

C'on...you have to admin, Van Helsing had the best CG werewolves I've (and many other people) have ever seen!
yes the design of the werewolf was good. I'm also partial to Harry Potter's werewolf. But it still doesn't compensate for being a digital character.

If you can tell that its a digital creature when its been onscreen for under five seconds: its a distraction, and therefore not good filmmaking.
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Post by NightmareHero »

There are somethings that you can only do in CG that can never be done with animatronics, stop motion, or the like...Just because it doesn't look photorealistic, doesn't mean it doesn't look good. Most people have such a thing as suspending their disbelief...Excellence over perfection
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Post by Mr_Lycos »

There are somethings that you can only do in CG that can never be done with animatronics, stop motion, or the like.
I'll buy that excuse for lightning effects.
..Just because it doesn't look photorealistic, doesn't mean it doesn't look good. Most people have such a thing as suspending their disbelief.
Unrealistic visuals are exactly what upset my suspension of disbelief.

Realistic = Good
Fake = Bad

This applies to breast implants too. :D
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Post by NightmareHero »

Mr_Lycos wrote:
There are somethings that you can only do in CG that can never be done with animatronics, stop motion, or the like.
I'll buy that excuse for lightning effects.
..Just because it doesn't look photorealistic, doesn't mean it doesn't look good. Most people have such a thing as suspending their disbelief.
Unrealistic visuals are exactly what upset my suspension of disbelief.

Realistic = Good
Fake = Bad

This applies to breast implants too. :D
Exactly, YOUR suspension of disbelief, that does not necessarily mean everyone will share your views on the subject, nor does that imply that everyone in the general audience will pay attention to such details, but more likely the entertainment, enlightment, and enjoyment value of the movie.
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Post by Apokryltaros »

Well, then, Mr Lycos, what do you recommend that ReQuest do for special effects, aside from avoiding all computer graphics like plague-stricken lepers who are ringed with grenades?
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Post by Mr_Lycos »

I didn't say they should avoid graphic computers all together.... Just don't rely on CG characters.

A few othe roptions open to filmmakers might possibly include : live action, puppetry, animation, animatronic, servo-assisted costumes, stop-motion, and rigging stray dogs to explode with gunpowder.



That last one was a joke BTW.
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Post by ABrownrigg »

Wow, now that's unique.. dogs exploding with gunpowder. oooooooo

I will say this Mr. Lycos.... I believe that CG can be effective if used properly. If i were to put kung fu werewolves in this, I would avoid itt altogether. However, since I'm not doing THAT.... We're working on ways of mixing the three mediums... puppetry, makeup, and CG.. .Ultimately, the best option is the one that looks the most real.. not a puppet costume, and moves like apuppet.. or a cg model that moves like a video game.. but a real living creature, that moves like a living creature, and in ways that a man in a suit just can't duplicate.

But thank you for your concern, as it is also one I hold close to me. As tests are done, they will be posted here, for you to comment on what you think looks the most real, and not real. Sound good?


Sincerely,

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Post by ABrownrigg »

Ohh, and Mr. Lycos.. Just noticed your rank.

Welcome to The Pack.
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Post by Figarou »

ABrownrigg wrote:Wow, now that's unique.. dogs exploding with gunpowder. oooooooo

I will say this Mr. Lycos.... I believe that CG can be effective if used properly. If i were to put kung fu werewolves in this, I would avoid itt altogether. However, since I'm not doing THAT.... We're working on ways of mixing the three mediums... puppetry, makeup, and CG.. .Ultimately, the best option is the one that looks the most real.. not a puppet costume, and moves like apuppet.. or a cg model that moves like a video game.. but a real living creature, that moves like a living creature, and in ways that a man in a suit just can't duplicate.

But thank you for your concern, as it is also one I hold close to me. As tests are done, they will be posted here, for you to comment on what you think looks the most real, and not real. Sound good?


Sincerely,

Anthony Brownrigg
(director)

Hmmmmmmm....the only way I see a CG model looking or moving like a video game is when it looks blocky in appearance.

Like this....
http://shadowfang.charreddirt.com/sfkeep/moonrage1.jpg
http://shadowfang.charreddirt.com/sfkeep/moonrage2.jpg

The ones in Van Helsing was no where near this.
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Post by Mr_Lycos »

I just thought of a new test to determine which type are you: Digital creature or "Traditional" F/X creature complient.

Since both of these movies were with 24 months of each other, the technology is pretty close.

Which looked more "real" to you: The Mr.Hyde from VanHelsing, or The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?
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Post by Figarou »

Mr_Lycos wrote:I just thought of a new test to determine which type are you: Digital creature or "Traditional" F/X creature complient.

Since both of these movies were with 24 months of each other, the technology is pretty close.

Which looked more "real" to you: The Mr.Hyde from VanHelsing, or The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen?

I really don't understand why this is a big deal.

Look at Yoda in Star Wars Ep5. Its a puppet. They had to build a special stage so the guy can operate the puppet from below. Because of this, Yoda's movements was limited.

Now look at Yoda in Ep2. Its not a puppet no more. Its CGI. That fight scene with Count Dooku made everyone stand up and cheer. No one complained that it should've stayed as a puppet. If it was a puppet, would that fight scene be in the movie?


Right now I really don't care what will be used in this film. Puppets, costumes, or CGI. As long as its the proper item for the scene its being used in.
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Post by Vuldari »

Mr_Lycos wrote:If you can tell that its a digital creature when its been onscreen for under five seconds: its a distraction, and therefore not good filmmaking.
I agree that not even the best CG I've seen has ever fooled me into thinking it was real. I too often wish Old School Puppetry and makeup was used more frequently, however, I've never seen a puppet or animatronic that quite fooled me either.
So you can tell that it is not real within 5 seconds. Big deal...you knew that before it even appeared on the screen. If a shred of realism has to be sacrificed to help a scene play out better, (closer to the way the director intended it), I'm all for it.
Figarou wrote:
Look at Yoda in Star Wars Ep5. Its a puppet. They had to build a special stage so the guy can operate the puppet from below. Because of this, Yoda's movements was limited.

Now look at Yoda in Ep2. Its not a puppet no more. Its CGI. That fight scene with Count Dooku made everyone stand up and cheer. No one complained that it should've stayed as a puppet. If it was a puppet, would that fight scene be in the movie?


Right now I really don't care what will be used in this film. Puppets, costumes, or CGI. As long as its the proper item for the scene its being used in.
I think that is a great example.

Don't throw out CG characters just because some scenes won't look quite as real.

(PS: I just remembered... Did you know that BOTH characters were fullly CG in that scene? :wink: )
...sometimes it CAN be that good.
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Post by Silverclaw »

Using different ways to make the werewolves is a good idea. Just try and have it all consistent. Like when I'm watching some movies I pick out those things when its not done well. "Oh, thats definently cgi. Oh, they brought out the rubbery puppet now. Oh, thats a dude in a furry suit." :lol:
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Post by Mr_Lycos »

I've never seen a puppet or animatronic that quite fooled me either.
Now without cheating (by, say, listening to a directors commentary) tell me which scene in Interview with a Vampire had a full-character puppet.

Hint: Its NOT the guy who gets cut in two with a scythe.
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Post by Scott Gardener »

If the sky were the limit, I'd use digital CGI to polish and perfect traditional puppeteering and costume effects; pure CGI still looks a little artificial.

I'd get the guys who did Underworld and put them through Goldenwolf boot camp. As screwy as the werewolves looked in Underworld, they looked like they were really there, at least in the scenes where they were up close and interactive. Obviously, Underworld suffered from the Hollywood syndrome of looking nothing like what a werewolf should look like, which is why I'd put each effects team member through a grueling six month tour of Yellowstone National Forest, Goldenwolf's and Kyoht's artwork, the Wolf Education and Research Center, and whatever else would get into their heads how a werewolf should look. (Heck, if we're dreaming, we could have each team member infected with a different fan's form of lycanthropy.)
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
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Post by Darth Canis »

Scott i could not agree with you more. If only goldie's and kyoht's art could be brought to life now that would a werewolf movie i would pay to see a dozen times. Their art is just so true to everything that i believe would encompass werewolf anatomy. What should a werewolf be? Kyoht's and Goldenwolf's art period nothing else i have ever seen has come closer to my vision of a werewolf or were creature.
The little girl who always wanted to fly an x wing and be raised by wolves... Come to think of it she still does.
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Post by Darth Canis »

Scott i could not agree with you more. If only goldie's and kyoht's art could be brought to life now that would a werewolf movie i would pay to see a dozen times. Their art is just so true to everything that i believe would encompass werewolf anatomy. What should a werewolf be? Kyoht's and Goldenwolf's art period nothing else i have ever seen has come closer to my vision of a werewolf or were creature.
The little girl who always wanted to fly an x wing and be raised by wolves... Come to think of it she still does.
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Post by Darth Canis »

Scott i could not agree with you more. If only goldie's and kyoht's art could be brought to life now that would a werewolf movie i would pay to see a dozen times. Their art is just so true to everything that i believe would encompass werewolf anatomy. What should a werewolf be? Kyoht's and Goldenwolf's art period nothing else i have ever seen has come closer to my vision of a werewolf or were creature.
The little girl who always wanted to fly an x wing and be raised by wolves... Come to think of it she still does.
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Post by Darth Canis »

Scott i could not agree with you more. If only goldie's and kyoht's art could be brought to life now that would a werewolf movie i would pay to see a dozen times. Their art is just so true to everything that i believe would encompass werewolf anatomy. What should a werewolf be? Kyoht's and Goldenwolf's art period nothing else i have ever seen has come closer to my vision of a werewolf or were creature.
The little girl who always wanted to fly an x wing and be raised by wolves... Come to think of it she still does.
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Post by Darth Canis »

Scott i could not agree with you more. If only goldie's and kyoht's art could be brought to life now that would a werewolf movie i would pay to see a dozen times. Their art is just so true to everything that i believe would encompass werewolf anatomy. What should a werewolf be? Kyoht's and Goldenwolf's art period nothing else i have ever seen has come closer to my vision of a werewolf or were creature.
The little girl who always wanted to fly an x wing and be raised by wolves... Come to think of it she still does.
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Post by Darth Canis »

Scott i could not agree with you more. If only goldie's and kyoht's art could be brought to life now that would a werewolf movie i would pay to see it a dozen times. Their art is just so true to everything that i believe would encompass werewolf anatomy. What should a werewolf be? Kyoht's and Goldenwolf's art period nothing else i have ever seen has come closer to my vision of a werewolf or were creature.
:howl:  :oo
The little girl who always wanted to fly an x wing and be raised by wolves... Come to think of it she still does.
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Post by Darth Canis »

gah sorry about that spamming it kept saying there was an error for this page and never showed me the finished product. Again sorry :(
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Post by Vuldari »

Darth Canis wrote:gah sorry about that spamming it kept saying there was an error for this page and never showed me the finished product. Again sorry :(
I've been getting the same error...something about failing to e-mail...

Anyway...if that happens, you can delete the unintended post afterward.
Look at the upper right hand corner of your post. There is a "Delete" icon next to the "edit" one.

Edit: It says "DEL" and it is up there with the "quote" button too.

FYI...if you get that message, Your post DID go through. No need to post again.
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Post by SGrayWolf »

Agreed, a little research goes a long long way when it comes to certain creatures in movies (and about anything really). If folks from many prior werewolf movies had checked out (and applied) the werewolf's form and anatomy (from the relevant online communities), there would have been much, much improvement in their werewolves appearances.
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