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So, I've been thinking, about how many werewolves in an average pack are bitten, vs. born?

How do the current pack members view bitten werewolves? Are they an unusual, somewhat taboo phenomenon? Are they created only by necessity? Or, are bitten werewolves just another run-of-the-mill occurence, as a way of maintaining pack size?




I've just been giving the whole issue a bit of thought. Based on the tone of some of the posts in this forum, it seems as though many people think that bitten werewolves would be a rare occurence, only created when someone finds out about the secret. But, that could lead to problems.

For example, say there is a pack, and there's not another one in the whole state. If this was your average wolf pack, interbreeding and line breeding wouldn't be a problem. But these are humans, and that is taboo. So...do they keep biting new people to introduce new blood? Or...in this age of modern technology...do all werewolf packs know where all other werewolf packs are, and do they have some sort of exchange program so that young werewolves can marry others who aren't related to them, as a way of preventing the biting of new werewolves? (I hope that made sense.)

With the former possibility, bitten werewolves are a common occurence, and would likely outnumber born werewolves in a pack.

With the latter possibility, bitten werewolves would almost never happen. I can imagine how frowned-upon the possibility of actually creating a bitten werewolf would be. And...I can imagine the reasoning behind it, as well. Someone who is new to werewolfism is likely far more likely to become a liability and expose the secret, so they prefer not to bite people. This could perhaps be used as a way of explaining why werewolf sightings have continued to dwindle, as technology and communication continue to progress, allowing werewolves to breed with other werewolves who aren't related to them, thereby reducing the need to create new werewolves to prevent inbreeding.

There are of course, possibilities in between. But ultimately, I think that, overall, werewolves would likely view bitten werewolves as either a good, normal thing or a bad, rare thing. Most likely somewhere in between, but definitely not right there in the middle.

Anyway, does anyone else have any thoughts?

(And before anyone brings this up...yes werewolves probably WOULD have packs. Perhaps not in an attempt to replicate the social structure of wolves, but because people like to be around other people who are like them. That's why most minorities have friends that are also minorities, and most whites have friends that are also white. That's also why, when you see a gothic guy walking down the street, you can bet he probably has a ton of gothic friends. It's also why, if you see a preppy girl, you can bet she has a ton of preppy friends, if she isn't surrounded by them already. People naturally want to be around others like them. There are people who are exceptions to this, but GENERALLY, this is true.)

I'd say Bitten Weres would be common, and perhaps common enough in some packs to outnumber the Born Weres.

How about whenever a born werewolf dies, a human is bitten and joins the pack that got them?

In my little "perspective" on wolves, I'd wager Bite vs. Born to be a fair bit more in favor of born, say maybe 60/40...

Bitten wolves are relatively common, but not terribly so, and they'd be seen rather like an acceptable oddity... they're not outcasts by any means, but, like you said with the "grouping" idea, Excelsia, they'd tend to stay with other bitten, just as a matter of familiarity.

Some would, of course, strike up friendships and such with Born wolves, but it'd be like a white guy trying to befriend a bunch of black or asian guys... it'd take a while before everyone would relax enough to just accept him as 'one of the pack'.


Just as a bit of side-reference, to help me organize ideas in my head, I mentally tag bitten wolves as Newblood, and born ones as Freeborn (oddly, I started doing this even before knowing about "Devoured", let alone before it was renamed "Freeborn"), just to keep things categorized.

I don't see them being nearly so seperated; the very act of biting someone would indicate intent to bring them into the pack. Combine that with no actual difference between them and born werewolves, add maybe ten years, and they're indistinguishable both in prowess and social status.

I think born werewolfs would outnumber the the bitten ones, cause theirs definatly possibility that the bitten werewolf wouldnt be able to adapt so well to its life and well end up going nuts and exposing his own kind. But I dont think born werewolfs would have no problem accepting the bitten onces as their own.

That would just mean that those selected to be bitten would have to be done so carefully, which they should be doing anyway.

Lupin wrote:That would just mean that those selected to be bitten would have to be done so carefully, which they should be doing anyway.

I know but what if a guy a thought he was ready to be a werewolf and then got bitten and after a while he realize he wasnt ready.

I'd consider werewolves in general rare, but I would expect the bitten ones to outnumber the born ones. They'd probably consider selectively recruiting a few people in order to keep the lines going.

Not that they would be organized neccessarily enough to plan as a society to keep lines going. Rather, I see individual packs forming and breaking up, and individual werewolves getting lonely. Most new werewolves would probably be close companions of werewolves, who got brought in in convoluted love stories not unlike the one in the Freeborn teaser.

Let's face it; if any one of us were a werewolf, we'd probably consider giving it to close friends or loved ones long before we'd consider infecting random strangers, especially given the thing's potential to affect human civilization as a whole or threaten werewolves everywhere were it to be revealed.

We also come back to the "Garou vs. Kindred" question posed in the World of Darkness games. It takes at least three years for a (lupus) Garou to be born, go through their Firsting and survive the Rite of Passage, whereas one vampire could Embrace forty people and turn them into Kindred in one night (Sabbat and Anarchs more than Camarilla). Bitten werewolves should outnumber born ones.

Shadow Wulf wrote:I think born werewolfs would outnumber the the bitten ones, cause theirs definatly possibility that the bitten werewolf wouldnt be able to adapt so well to its life and well end up going nuts and exposing his own kind. But I dont think born werewolfs would have no problem accepting the bitten onces as their own.

I think a Bitten werewolf would have the sense of self-preservation not to expose Werewolves. If people react unfavorably, he's going to be the first to die. PRobably on a disection table, too. And the guy who bite him and his buddies would probably watch closely for this and take them out if they posed a threat.

It'd be like this:
1. Chose someone least likely to expose
2. Infect
3. Observe
4. If going well, introduce to pack
5. If going bad...action depends on how the indivual reacts. Those trying to expose will likely be...removed.
etc.

i just keep wondering why some people would actually want to kill werewolves just so that they can see what they find when they dissect...

And imagine if the army gets a hold of the samples. Supersoldiers ahoy.

It's not that most people would want to dissect werewolves; it's that at least a few would. However, I personally believe that that's only a small part of the larger problem of exposure. The resulting social upheaval could be catastrophic.

I suspect that a fairly organized werewolf society, where there are enough werewolves to know about each other and exchange information such as rules about who to bite or not to bite, modern times might present at least a few members with the temptation to reveal one's self.

As recently as 50 years ago, it was a no brainer that one should stay hidden. The 1950s, when (at least in the U.S.--thankfully Europe was a bit more forward-thinking) entrances to restaurants were segregated by race, cultural ethics were such that a werewolf would likely be treated as inhuman. As recently as the eighties and nineties, or even today, social lifestyle differences such as homosexuality or the Wiccan religion are stigmatized.

But, given the number of other social revolutions going on, starting from the 1960s onward, newer generations of werewolves might be tempted to reveal themselves. The nineties might have had several close calls. Here in the U.S., where conservativism has made a comeback, that temptation may have temporarily subsided, but again in Europe, where things are moving forward pretty quickly, there might be at least a few werewolves who are thinking how nice it would be to walk into a bar, sit back with one's hindpaws on the table, and lap up a frothy beer without worrying about mass panic followed by military stormtroopers.

Aki wrote:

Shadow Wulf wrote:I think born werewolfs would outnumber the the bitten ones, cause theirs definatly possibility that the bitten werewolf wouldnt be able to adapt so well to its life and well end up going nuts and exposing his own kind. But I dont think born werewolfs would have no problem accepting the bitten onces as their own.

I think a Bitten werewolf would have the sense of self-preservation not to expose Werewolves. If people react unfavorably, he's going to be the first to die. PRobably on a disection table, too. And the guy who bite him and his buddies would probably watch closely for this and take them out if they posed a threat.

It'd be like this:
1. Chose someone least likely to expose
2. Infect
3. Observe
4. If going well, introduce to pack
5. If going bad...action depends on how the indivual reacts. Those trying to expose will likely be...removed.
etc.

Whoops, thier was a typo. What I meant to say is that I think they would have no problem accepting the bitten ones. But yeah your also right Excelsia.

I really like how the pack system is set up in Kelley Armstrong's books. There are more born ww's then bitten and the only reason the bitten werewolves are there is because the pack felt a sense of responsibility for those ww's. Just my two cents but i would not be opposed to any of the other ideas i think any of them could be a poteintial make up of a pack.

Well, in that book, it was thought that bitten werewolves only rarely survived, and in most cases, that was true.

This is true.... would this true in our view of the pack. Would bitten werewolves be welcomed with open arms or would they be a taboo something that only rarely occured because they passed a test or something of that nature.

There will always be those who are dissection happy, even though we know that they will find heart, lungs and liver like every other living creature. Nothing new there. Everything measured, weighed and cataloged and compared.

However, in born vs. bitten the born have lived with their nature all their lives and would thus deal with it much better than those who are bitten. Their adjustment would have to be as much mental as physical, and we all know that both can be stressful as well as taxing. It would take time for one bitten to overcome such things, not to mention the insane mood swings, learning to use their newly heightened senses. The newly bitten would benefit from hanging around the born, learning from them. Providing, of course the born was willing.

I have to agree that any organization for building a society would be work. I'd have to lean more toward the possibility of family groups, born bringing bitten in as additions to the group, as Scott G., suggested above. A family group would have its own traditions and rituals, same as we all do. Plus, a tight-knit family would likely be more protective and guarded with those brought in. By guarded I mean, hovering over, teaching, not letting roam alone...sort of thing.

Family groups would grow and shrink with births, bitten, young growing up and leaving to start their own family groups.

Communications between family groups, exchaning information and things of that nature would likely happen as it does with anyone else. Getting together for occations and just talking and such. Such things would help in making them blend in human societies as flawlessly as possible. I know this all sounds very human, but all in all don't they do their best to stay hidden and blend in?

So...after all my blabbering, I'd have to say that the bitten would likely occur as often as the born, making an equal mix of both.

I think it would work as the wolf pack system. Young wolves will run off to find other packs and mate with them. Just as wolves do.

Of course werewolf packs would need a way to advertise themselves to lone wolves wanting to join the packs. Being they aren’t always very distinguishable from other humans. I don't think the werewolves will, but it would be practical to have all the packs connected with each other in some way, so they all knew where each of them are located. They may already know this though because of territorial lines. So I wouldn't doubt packs would know about each other mainly through knowing which land is whose territory. The best time to probably look for other werewolves would be to know their meeting place on full moon nights.

Yet in a human world, a werewolf can't travel miles away looking for another pack. Once they get there they'd then need to find a house and a job. So a werewolf may want to know ahead of time where they're going to live rather than just wondering off.

Bitten werewolves would need to fit somewhere in there. I don't think werewolves are going to bite who ever they think is suitable with out them knowing. It would need to be an idea introduced to them first. Because that may take a long time, and many people may not be so welcoming of an idea, bitten werewolves may be rare. Despite that they may be important for diversity and minimizing any inbreeding.

A born werewolf also has the advantage of being a werewolf their entire life. Which means they'd be used to avoiding being discovered, shifting, and would probably be more trusted by others.

*pictures a WW online dating site...*

this is what i think how it would work. bitten werewolves are discouraged but is needed. A werewolf looks for a human mate because their are no werewolves out side the family. then the human that is chosen gets "bitten" to prevent inbreeding and introduce new blood in the gene pool. but bitten werewolves are discouraged because they are a liabability to the pack and the whole race, and too maney werewolves could bring more and more chances of sightings. but if a human gains knollage of the existance of werewolves. they would probably kill him then change him. and the police departments would just call it a wild animal attack.

i would think that werewolves would have packs because its just nature to want to be with thier own kind and also to increase the chances of finding a mate that is already a werewolf.

I think it's pretty much already been covered. No werewolf pack could survive as a family unit without having a decent ammount of bitten werewolves (or risk becomming inbred). Plus, keeping lycanthropy restricted to a family unit poses a great risk to the pack because of exposure via association -- if one werewolf is recognized by a hostile source (like a Helsing wannabe), the first people that will likewise be targeted are the members of his family. Therefore, bitten werewolves are essential to the pack.

Personally, I think the percentage ratio depends on the size of the pack, but whatever the case, the bitten werewolves would be the majority. A small pack like the one in Freeborn would likely be 100% bitten, but once the pack is large enough, there will be a few pairings (either between two werewolves, or by one werewolf infecting their intended significant other) and add a few born werewolves into the mix. At any rate, it would be incredibly rare, I imagine, for born werewolves to outnumber the bitten.

Hmm... bitten or borned. Like in the movie Blade there was pure blood vampires who were borned to a vampires and the bitten ones were the lower minions.

In this case I would think the bitten ones are not so weak as the pure blood weres. They can resist silver and stuff better that those who are borned to be werewolves. I dunno 'bout the hierarchy, do the pure ones hate the bitten ones or what.

Moonstalker wrote:In this case I would think the bitten ones are not so weak as the pure blood weres. They can resist silver and stuff better that those who are borned to be werewolves. I dunno 'bout the hierarchy, do the pure ones hate the bitten ones or what.

You really can't compare werewolves to vampires in the sense that vampires, especially in modern representations like Blade and Underworld, exist in strict hierarchies in which rank is defined down to the details by politics, senority, and humanity (born vampires > bitten vampires > human familiars), whereas werewolves live in a family "pack" unit. Even the most staunch and werewolf-supremecist of packs would have to regard bitten werewolves the same way a normal family regards their in-laws.

There might be some resentment towards newly-bitten werewolves due to their lack of control of their lycanthropy or their ignorance of what it means to be a werewolf, but beyond that, I think bitten werewolves wouldn't be treated much differently than born werewolves.

I think born would out number the bitten.

If there are a lot of bitten werewolves then all the bitten werewolves would then mate with each other, producing born werewolves. The new generation of born werewolves could then mate some fo the others in the pack, and do so untill they can't. Inwhich they then bring in new werewolves. (which may instead cause an effect where the wolves go back and forth between how many bitten werewolves they have versus how many born.)

I personally let it play out in my mind.
Lets take 6 bitten werewolves, they get in pair and create two more werewolves.
The offspring of born werewolves then are able to get in pairs again without inbreeding, and lets say they once again create two pups each pair.
After that new werewolves would need to be brought in because the werwolves could not mate with anyone of their own generation and not inbreed.
Yet that that point that would create 6 bitten to 12 born. A 1 to 2 ratio.

I did only choose six to start out though.

Of cource, also on the other hand. Alphas are the only ones that mate, and I doubt that werewolves are all going to be pairing up to have babies as much as they can. A lot may want to skip taking care of babies because they may be too hard to take care of.