THE PACK Message Boards

I thought about upbringing this topic for a long time, but couldn't decide wheter it would be a good idea or not. The idea behind this thread is to exchange informations about differences in cultures, since The Pack consists of people who come from various countries. The problem I've seen with this is that I would very much dislike to see people posting here kinda insulting things. Don't get me wrong - I doubt that the members of The Pack would post such things, but to avoid this, I would like to suggest 'checking-points':

First of all I want to give some general things that are used in Ethnology/Cultural Anthropology that I would like to be considered before posting something:

Definition of Culture:

The Culture of a group consists of shared, socially learned knowledge and patterns of behaviour.

General Approaches:

Holism:

Look for connections and interrelations between things, and try to understand parts in the context of the whole!

Comparativism:

Generalizations about humans are likely to be mistaken unless they take the full range of cultural diversity in account!

Relativism:

In studying another culture, do not evaluate the behaviour of its members by standards and values of your own culture! No culture is better than another and no one can have a superior or inferior culture!

Second I would like to make some suggestions about the kind of things to post here:

1: Phrases
2: Foreign Traditions
3: Experiences with members of other cultures
4: Questions that you have about other cultures

These are just suggestions. Hopefully I didn't sound to much like a schoolteacher, but this is a very interesting as well as a very risky topic to talk about.

After giving a intro, I would like to start with a phrase - or better, with the difference of a phrase in english and german language dealing with the same thing:

In english language people give their two cents to a topic.
In german language you give your mustard to everything.

One thing I've always noticed is that some countries and cultures have a 'bubble' and some don't. For example, in the U.S., there is an accepted distance to stand from someone when speaking. If you get too close to them (even if you don't bump into them) you are expected to apologize, because you have entered their 'bubble'. In many other countries, no such bubble exists. You can get as close to someone as you want when talking to them. People from the U.S. often find this disturbing, and might take a few steps back. But in other countries, standing really close to someone might not be unusual. Because of this 'bubble', U.S. movies often will show a man and a woman standing really close together (usually because one of them stumbled towards the other) as a way of building sexual tension. They will both then jump back and quickly apologize. I can imagine that, for someone from a country that doesn't use the 'bubble', this might be confusing.

Yes, this bubble can sometimes cause some conflicts. What I know is that this bubble is very big in the USA compared to that of - let's say the bubble of people from japan. Even the european bubble is smaller than the american one and this is often the reason why americans misinterpret the behaviour of europeans as sexual avances.

But surely "the bubble" dosen't exist online, at least not in a text based environment. I don't think i've noticed any noteworthy cultural misunderstandings on this forum.
If i didn't understand a foreign phrase i'd ask in a PM

hmm id love to talk to this but could we do it on AIM or MSN

It is interesting how little cultural confusion does happen, given how we've got people on both the Burger-and-Fries and the Bangers-and-Mash side of the planet here together. I guess coffee and tea can be shared at the same table.

Now, if all our DVDs could be one region code...

That would rock. One region code for DVDs. Sorry random yes, but I just ordered a DVD and rats it's the wrong region code so I have to exchange it. But truely it is very nice to be able to share ideas with others that are from different cultures.

Oh...I guess I didn't read carefully enough, I didn't realize that the cultural differences had to be the kind that affected online interaction.

hmm... i know when gaming on xbox live, we US peeps tend to over-mock peeps from other countries. probibly the only country that has bigger asses on xbox live would be Australia...

And nobody liked to be on a team with anyone speaking French... though for some reason, they seem to always win...

Hmm....
I've noticed the French haven't made themselves popular anywhere...
Et pour cela on s'excuse !

They do tend to refuse to learn any other languages (as a whole....) you should try to go to Paris and speak english to 'em... some bartenders will rather let you die of thirst then speak english...
not that trange really...seen their history with the english... it's ingrained pretty deep...

But with the exception of differences in point of vieuw, i have not really had any cultural clashes on the net. With people-to-people interaction it's much more tricky (body language, the bubble, etc...)
ofcourse i just love watching these things and practice them untill i understand or get an opportunity to ask their meaning

Renorei wrote:Oh...I guess I didn't read carefully enough, I didn't realize that the cultural differences had to be the kind that affected online interaction.

It wasn't meant this way. I just wanted to give a place for talking generally about cultural differences, not only about differences that afflict the online interaction. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough in the first place, but I'm still having some problems with english

My thought behind this thread isn't to make things clearer and to solve problems - also it could be used this way, too - it's meant to still my curiosity about knowledge of this differences.

I like to learn new phrases, I like to hear stories about interactions with other cultures. Like Nishah said:

ofcourse i just love watching these things and practice them untill i understand or get an opportunity to ask their meaning

Hopefully I made my point clear

The weirdest cultural clash I ever lived through was a visit from a couple of Japanese Kendoka (practitioners of "Kendo") that stayed for about two weeks in our house.

the first one concerned a gift that was given to us. Normally, you never open a gift while the giver can see you. This is to avoid having him see the look of dissapointment in your eyes if you don't like it. Now, we all knew that from previous meetings in japan... But Matsu, the japanese visitor, insisted we open it to respect our customs... which made for a strange 5 minutes as each group was dancing around not to insult the other....

The next rather funny event was eating.... We ate bread and all sorts of meat, cheese, veregtables and made just standard sandwiches.... Matsu and Kenishi each look at eachother and started making "japanese selections".... meaning you take a bit of everyting you want to eat and put that "in your rice bowl".... result : a cheese, ham, chocolate paste, pickles, tomato sandwich.... that they ate with knife and fork untill they saw us use our hands.... That was hilarious...
I guess just as funny as they found our attempts to be polite at their table...

Did you know that you can NEVER verbaly refuse a drink in japan ? You have to nod a hearty yes while you cover your cup with your hand... that's the way to say "No"

I don't think I've ever really came upon much confusion with cultural differences across the internet, besides a few slang terms. Yet funnily enough you don't have to be on the other side of the country to have noticeably different slang. As I moved to where I'm currently at, around 30-45 minutes away from my old house and school, I noticed my new school uses different sayings. Apparently I never learned what “Mickey D's” and “Wally's World” was until I moved here.
(It means McDonalds and Wall Mart.)


Keeping to the topic of slang, I've noticed the excessive amount of slang in the 'Werewolf Fan community' (for lack of better words.), which has confused other people when I attempted to use it outside of here.

They do tend to refuse to learn any other languages (as a whole....) you should try to go to Paris and speak english to 'em... some bartenders will rather let you die of thirst then speak english...
not that trange really...seen their history with the english... it's ingrained pretty deep...

I, personally, think that no one has a right to complain about this. In America people who don't know Spanish can't serve someone who can't speak English. (Though I just noticed you don't live in America, so I'm guessing you may not be famaliar with that scenerio.) (Which, if you ask me, the person has every right to not serve the person, being they have every right to not have to learn Spanish. I'm not saying the Spanish person has to speak English, just if he doesn't, it's going to be tough living here.)

Yeah like my mother, but atleast she knows enough to get by with alot of stuff. The thing is one of the biggest mistakes that foregners do when they come to the US or other countries to live thier and get a job is that they do not learn the language enough to atleast say the basic stuff you have to say, and as you stay thier your knowledge will start to grow of the language and in no time flat you'll speak it fluently. I have had some hispanoc friends who came here and did not know a word of english and they had a HARD time trying to understand what to do in class, but within a few years he spoke it fine, but with a HEAVY acsent, I always liked hearing people from other countries trying to speak english, it just amuses me. When I lived in the west I always got mistaken for a Mexican cause I guess 70% of hispanics over their are Mexicans.

outwarddoodles wrote:

They do tend to refuse to learn any other languages (as a whole....) you should try to go to Paris and speak english to 'em... some bartenders will rather let you die of thirst then speak english...
not that trange really...seen their history with the english... it's ingrained pretty deep...

I, personally, think that no one has a right to complain about this. In America people who don't know Spanish can't serve someone who can't speak English. (Though I just noticed you don't live in America, so I'm guessing you may not be famaliar with that scenerio.) (Which, if you ask me, the person has every right to not serve the person, being they have every right to not have to learn Spanish. I'm not saying the Spanish person has to speak English, just if he doesn't, it's going to be tough living here.)

Don't take me wrong... i'm not complaining... i'm fluent in french so i don't care but it's just the matter of client service, even in your own native environment...
Nobody can force anyone to learn a language besides his native language but it will defrost mant situations if the person sees you're trying to adress him in his/her own language... which is exactly what I will always try...
after one day in a foreign country everybody should be able to say "hello", "goodye" and "thank you" in the native language... my opinion only of course

But i don't quite get your point... you have to speak spanish to serve foreigners ? or something ? I really don't understand sorry

Nishah wrote:

outwarddoodles wrote:

They do tend to refuse to learn any other languages (as a whole....) you should try to go to Paris and speak english to 'em... some bartenders will rather let you die of thirst then speak english...
not that trange really...seen their history with the english... it's ingrained pretty deep...

I, personally, think that no one has a right to complain about this. In America people who don't know Spanish can't serve someone who can't speak English. (Though I just noticed you don't live in America, so I'm guessing you may not be famaliar with that scenerio.) (Which, if you ask me, the person has every right to not serve the person, being they have every right to not have to learn Spanish. I'm not saying the Spanish person has to speak English, just if he doesn't, it's going to be tough living here.)

Don't take me wrong... i'm not complaining... i'm fluent in french so i don't care but it's just the matter of client service, even in your own native environment...
Nobody can force anyone to learn a language besides his native language but it will defrost mant situations if the person sees you're trying to adress him in his/her own language... which is exactly what I will always try...
after one day in a foreign country everybody should be able to say "hello", "goodye" and "thank you" in the native language... my opinion only of course

But i don't quite get your point... you have to speak spanish to serve foreigners ? or something ? I really don't understand sorry

I don't think that anyone (in their own native country) should be forced to learn an additional language besides the language of that particular country in order to serve people.

However, if it so happens that the person already knows the foreign patron's language...I think it's kinda rude not to use it to complete the transaction. Anyone who is visiting another country should prepare themselves by learning some important phrases before they get there. However, if it just so happens that what they already know isn't enough, and the shopkeeper or bartender or whoever just so happens to speak the foreigner's language...I see no reason why they shouldn't use it.

Also...I think that anyone who plans to permanently immigrate to another country should be forced to be fluent in that country's language before they get there.

But i don't quite get your point... you have to speak spanish to serve foreigners ? or something ? I really don't understand sorry

Yeah, I think it's because you aren't here in American and you're not familiar with the situation I'm talking about. You see, people in places with a lot of immigration are incapable of giving service to immigrants that do not speak the English language. Now places are starting to refuse costumers that cannot give their request in English. Apparently people are getting upset about this.

Also...I think that anyone who plans to permanently immigrate to another country should be forced to be fluent in that country's language before they get there.

Um....Freedom of speech? I don't think anyone should be forced to learn another language. I recommend that immigrants should learn the native language, but not force them. Nor should we force the natives to learn the foreign language.

Wouldn't life be so much easier with universal translators?!?

In my new workplace during the mid-week, I'm at a clinic owned by Vietnamese, with a number of Hispanic front office employees. So, we've got three languages going. I feel like I'm in a DVD, and I keep looking for the subtitles menu.

What's really weird is when two people are conversing in their native language, and then they switch to yours. So, you hear half the conversation and are left to wonder about the other half.

A bit of trivia. Of all the countries on Earth, the United States actually has the third largest Spanish-speaking population.

There's been a push here in the U.S. by some to make English the national language, since the overwhelming majority of us here speak it, and, unfortunately, many of us don't speak anything else.

My own opinion is that the idea is good, but not the people backing it. The movement is largely organized and backed by people with a known dislike for immigrants from Mexico, who often speak only Spanish. The movement is an attempt to reverse a slowly growing trend towards bilingualism. Many basic government services offer Spanish translations, but, unfortunately, most upscale and high end services targeted to the wealthier population do not, creating and reinforcing a social class seperation phenomenon.

Social class seperations are principally based on economics, but it reinforces an all-too-common human tendancy, to insist that one's own cultural group is better than the others.

It seems to me like that most Americans are being like the germans back then and saying that THEY are the MASTER RACE, but this time instead of kicking out Jews of our country, its illegal imegrant. Is anyone else seeing a pattern here?

outwarddoodles wrote:

Also...I think that anyone who plans to permanently immigrate to another country should be forced to be fluent in that country's language before they get there.

Um....Freedom of speech? I don't think anyone should be forced to learn another language. I recommend that immigrants should learn the native language, but not force them. Nor should we force the natives to learn the foreign language.

I think of it like this. You're forced to pass a driving test to make sure that you can drive well before you're allowed to go out on the roads. This is to make sure that you don't endanger others.

Not being fluent in the native tongue could endanger others (and yourself) as well. If you don't speak English and you call 911 because you can't find your cat, but all the dispatchers can hear is someone frantically talking (in another language), they will send policemen or an ambulance to your house anyway. Eventually, they will probably figure out that you're just worried about your cat. Meanwhile, a more important situation could have been going down elsewhere, but they wasted time with you.

Or...say a pair of immigrants (mother and child) rush into a hospital. The child's been bitten by a snake and is now unconscious, and the mother doesn't speak good enough English to tell the doctors what kind of snake bit the kid. They won't know how to treat him.

I have plenty of other examples of ways in which not knowing the country's native tongue could cause immigrants to endanger themselves and others. Freedom of speech is an important right...but when taking it to the extreme is putting people in danger, something needs to be done.

Shadow Wulf wrote:It seems to me like that most Americans are being like the germans back then and saying that THEY are the MASTER RACE, but this time instead of kicking out Jews of our country, its illegal imegrant . Is anyone else seeing a pattern here?

If they are illegal, then we have every right to throw them out. Just because they're new here doesn't make them above the law. If someone wants to come live here, they can follow the proper procedures.

EDIT: Furthermore, it's not like Americans are all one race. If you're referring to caucasians, I can guarantee you that the majority of caucasians are of mixed ethnicities. For example, I am Irish, Italian, and German.

I am Puerto Rican, American, French

More political banter. If you're easily offended, don't read.

There's a rather strange symmetry going on with the issue. Hispanics are basically hybrids of European settlers and invaders from around the 1600s, when Spain and Portugal were world powers, and various Native American tribes. The temptation is there to see the new trend as the latter set of genes getting even.

That said, I'm not a big fan of the idea of reparations for deeds done past a certain reasonable statute of limitations, like, say, within a person's lifetime. One could otherwise theoretically argue that everybody's entitled to payback for the misdeeds of everyone else. If I were declared world emperor, one of the first things I'd do is wipe the slate and say that nobody alive today owes anyone else land so-and-so's ancestors took four hundred years ago. (That goes for you, too, Palastine.) Yes, the damage is done, but I think you would find some of the other decrees and resolutions of the Gardener Regime quite equitable as far as setting things straight.

Furthermore, I do agree that for any given geographic area, it makes sense that people universally share a language, for the sake of ensuring access to basic neccessities, such as health care. It's not practical for every firefighter, police officer, nurse, and doctor to learn later in life two or three extra languages. As a physician myself, I can assure you there's already enough to learn just to be a decent doctor.

But, kerpong, the ball goes out of the Nazi court, back to the Liberal court.

If it were one, two, or a few hundred people who didn't speak the common language, then it would be the failure of those individuals. When it's whole seperate communities isolated from the rest of society, then there's a fundamental flaw in the society at large. The Fascist approach is to say that the society isn't being strict enough about who can cross the border. But, that's overlooking much bigger problems, like education deficits.

I do agree that we need a sharper distinction between legal and illegal immigration. We need to crack down on illegal immigration, but we should also streamline the process of legal immigration. Closing the borders and trying to stop immigration is like not teaching teenagers about sex--it's going to happen anyway, because there's something driving the process. In the case of immigration, the only realistic way to stop it is to make our country so sucky a place that no one would want to move here. (Granted, there are some who would be quick to insist that the Bush Administration is working on that.) As it is, there's something about being here that's better than being over there, or at least beneficial on some level.

A lot of people come to the U.S. from Mexico, work here, and send money earned from their jobs back to their families back home. They travel back home over holidays, or sometimes return home while another family member moves here. This has a net effect of outsourcing labor to Mexico right here inside the United States. (Well, I'm right here inside the United States. Some of you are scratching your heads, since those of you in Europe have different neighbors over your fences.) Rather than trying to stop this, we could instead recognize that we're getting good, dedicated, hard-working laborers, and figure out a system that uses this to our mutual advantage, both the U.S. and Mexico. If we could streamline a process for people to get across the border and gain citizenship if needed, it could eliminate a lot of behind-the-scenes dealing, and reduce sympathy for those who are doing it illegally.

Think of it as similar to the music industry and Internet music distribution. People became a lot less sympathetic for illegal file-sharing once iTunes got up and running and Napster got refurbished as a legitimate service. But, when the music industry simply stomped out everything associated with the mp3 format (calling for a court-ordered injunction against the first Diamond Rio mp3 player, suing mp3.com for a service that did not even distribute music except to those who could prove they owned a copy, and their legendary suit against a twelve year old girl who didn't know any better), people sided with the pirates like it was that Johnny Depp movie.

Right now, we're actively encouraging illegal immigration through irrational and convoluted labor and tax laws that people who read English can't understand either but can be put in prison for not following, and an imbalanced health care program that offers more benefits to illegal immigrants than legal ones. Come on. What should we expect? If we put half that energy instead towards schools that teach English, we might be able to fix a few of the things we gripe about without having to resort to anyone hating anybody.

I think that the number of immigrants allowed into this country should be a number that (considering the number of births per year) will not cause the population to rise. So basically:

# Immigrants allowed per year = # deaths per year - # births per year

It would be a little different every year. Some years, maybe a lot of immigrants could come in, some years, maybe none. But, I think we're overpopulated as it is. Immigrants aren't helping the situation.

Also, I think the government should encourage people to have few kids or no kids at all.

NOTE: Before being critical of these ideas, bear in mind that I have no idea what the actual statistics are for the U.S. population. I don't know whether it is rising, or falling. Also, I don't know how many immigrants come here each year on average. I doubt that the system I have suggested would work...it's really more of an ideal pipe-dream than a realistic plan.