Do you think there should be any kind of order when a werewolf transforms? Ex: hands change first..ect...
Also, do all werewolves change differently you think, or is it all the same?
TF Order?
-
Silverclaw
- Moderator
- Posts: 3203
- Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:07 pm
- Gender: Male
- Mood: Meh...
- Location: Where soul meets body
-
Terastas
- Legendary
- Posts: 5193
- Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:03 pm
- Custom Title: Spare Pelican
- Gender: Male
- Location: Las Vegas
- Contact:
The only thing I think would naturally come before anything else is the presence of fur. On the anatomical level, the human body is already covered in hair folacles -- its just that not all of them actually work, so the acceleration of hair growth to the point that it can be treated as fur would be less extreme than any shifts in bone structure, and in terms of the film itself, it would probably be eaiser and potentially more realistic to add fur to the real life actor and then work digitally from the furry model than to distort a fully-human actor and risk winding up with Playstation graphics like in Darkwolf.
By that same definition, the second most visible change would be to the nails (not the hands and feet; just the nails) because the proteins that make up our nails replenishes just as regularly as our hairs do. They might change color and elongate, but I wouldn't go as far as the formation of claws until the knuckles start to distort.
The third elements of the change would probably involve eye coloration. In terms of anatomy (or at least what little I can work with), this would be just as likely as anything specified in the category below this, but I'm specifying this to be beforehand because, of all the changes that don't involve bones or vital organs, eye coloration would be the easiest to apply to a live actor.
The fourth changes would probably be the ears, nose, and tongue because, though there is bone involved in their structure, it is to a lesser extent that certain shifts could occur before the finished product. In the case of the ear, for example, they won't shift towards the top of the head and the ear drum won't redevelop until the rest of the skeletal reformation occurs, but the ear itself could form to a canine point. Same case with the nose; it could turn black and grow more sensitive hairs, but it won't actually take the genuine shape until the jawbones distort into a muzzle.
Arguably, since the tongue is purely muscle, that would shift before the ears and nose, but in this case I think anatomy will have to take a back seat to cosmetics entirely because... Well, what I'm assuming is that, for the sake of realism, the real-life actors should stay on screen as long as possible, and actors and audience alike will probably take more kindly to being given pointed ears and a cold nose than a floppy canine tongue that won't fit in their mouth until the muzzle comes out, so it might be the recommendation of the effects crew that the tongue be held off for as long as possible.
After that, all the other factors would involve some bone distortion. Any of that could appear at random and be taken in whatever order produces the best looking result.
By that same definition, the second most visible change would be to the nails (not the hands and feet; just the nails) because the proteins that make up our nails replenishes just as regularly as our hairs do. They might change color and elongate, but I wouldn't go as far as the formation of claws until the knuckles start to distort.
The third elements of the change would probably involve eye coloration. In terms of anatomy (or at least what little I can work with), this would be just as likely as anything specified in the category below this, but I'm specifying this to be beforehand because, of all the changes that don't involve bones or vital organs, eye coloration would be the easiest to apply to a live actor.
The fourth changes would probably be the ears, nose, and tongue because, though there is bone involved in their structure, it is to a lesser extent that certain shifts could occur before the finished product. In the case of the ear, for example, they won't shift towards the top of the head and the ear drum won't redevelop until the rest of the skeletal reformation occurs, but the ear itself could form to a canine point. Same case with the nose; it could turn black and grow more sensitive hairs, but it won't actually take the genuine shape until the jawbones distort into a muzzle.
Arguably, since the tongue is purely muscle, that would shift before the ears and nose, but in this case I think anatomy will have to take a back seat to cosmetics entirely because... Well, what I'm assuming is that, for the sake of realism, the real-life actors should stay on screen as long as possible, and actors and audience alike will probably take more kindly to being given pointed ears and a cold nose than a floppy canine tongue that won't fit in their mouth until the muzzle comes out, so it might be the recommendation of the effects crew that the tongue be held off for as long as possible.
After that, all the other factors would involve some bone distortion. Any of that could appear at random and be taken in whatever order produces the best looking result.
-
Silverclaw
- Moderator
- Posts: 3203
- Joined: Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:07 pm
- Gender: Male
- Mood: Meh...
- Location: Where soul meets body
Yes, I would like fries with that 
I dont think a werewolf would really be able to choose which parts of them change unless they were VERY experenced.
Maybe a little bit of everything would happen. Like as the fur grows in, the claws form. And as the ears grow to points, a tail would start to press out, ect. Not anything like, full wolf pelt done, move to getting a fully developed wolf head, ect.
I dont think a werewolf would really be able to choose which parts of them change unless they were VERY experenced.
Maybe a little bit of everything would happen. Like as the fur grows in, the claws form. And as the ears grow to points, a tail would start to press out, ect. Not anything like, full wolf pelt done, move to getting a fully developed wolf head, ect.
-
Terastas
- Legendary
- Posts: 5193
- Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:03 pm
- Custom Title: Spare Pelican
- Gender: Male
- Location: Las Vegas
- Contact:
Umm... Yeah, sorry I didn't clarify that far. I didn't mean to say that they would grow all of their fur, then move on to the nails, etc., rather I meant to say that, umm... Well, you know, it would start growing before all the bone reformation, but everything else would come shortly thereafter, so it wouldn't actually reach full length until at least halfway through the transformation.Silverclaw wrote:Yes, I would like fries with that
I dont think a werewolf would really be able to choose which parts of them change unless they were VERY experenced.
Maybe a little bit of everything would happen. Like as the fur grows in, the claws form. And as the ears grow to points, a tail would start to press out, ect. Not anything like, full wolf pelt done, move to getting a fully developed wolf head, ect.
So... Think of it this way: The order I specified could anywhere from one at a time to all at once -- just not in reverse.
Umm... Clarified?
-
Scott Gardener
- Legendary
- Posts: 4731
- Joined: Wed Dec 15, 2004 11:36 pm
- Gender: Male
- Mood: Excited
- Location: Rockwall, Texas (and beyond infinity)
- Contact:
If there's an order to this disorder
The general consensus seems to be that experienced shapeshifters do it better. Those shifting for the first time are generally expected by those of us in the field of theoretical lycanthropology to experience excruciating pain and to undergo forced shifts, while those who have had it for a long time or are born with it (assuming it doesn't delay until adulescence, which happens in some interpretations) have a lot more control.
But, in answering the question itself, I agree with the above that the anatomically easy stuff should happen first.
Part of what made American Werewolf in London so effective, besides pointing out that shapeshifting would be painful, is that it didn't happen as people were used to seeing it. His face changed last, and moviegoers were not used to the idea of a four-legged werewolf, so seeing David Kessler watch his hands stretch came as a shock.
One technique if you're wanting a disturbing approach is asymmetry. I'm surprised we haven't seen it, though I would expect it to cause problems. If the left side of the face shifts ahead of the right side, you can have the great shock of having the person turn his or her head and have one eye glowing, plus fur and a wolf ear.
But, asymmetry might not be anatomically that plausible, especially where the brain is concerned, which already has the biggest burden of the shapeshifting process, having to shed more than half its volume in a manner that preserves memory, or at least holds its memory in a restorable format. (Compressing the NTFS drive while rebooting into Linux?)
If you're aiming more for an elegant and beautiful approach, which is so seldom done considering the beauty of both the human form and that of the wolf, I suggest shifting the body in two steps. The first introduces minor changes except for coating the body with fur. The person becomes something similar to Old School werewolves, only much more polished and anatomically accurate, with facial features that are drawn more from real wolves than copying the consensus of horror movies. The second half shifts the body evenly at once, though I do in my mind fudge and give the head and face a head start.
I generally don't picture my own werewolves having fixed forms or stages of transformation, though I do write of those who shift slightly, become a wolf, appear fully human, and so forth. I do describe assuming "hybrid wolf form," but the wolf anthropomorph body isn't a hard-wired fixed form among my take.
(Oddly enough, when I first started daydreaming about werewolves back in 1987, I came up with five discreet stages that were more or less the same as the five out of White Wolf's Werewolf: the Apocalypse, with two important exceptions. First, I conserved mass, so a stage III transformation was not a towering nine foot behemoth like the "crinos" form, and second, my stage IV form had more human qualities than the "hispo" monster wolf form in White Wolf. I dropped the five stages in favor of smooth shifting by 1990 or so, but I used my early work as a point of reference in my mind's eye for picturing some forms before the therianthropy movement and exposure to anthro art with more realistic wolf aspects gave me better points of comparison.)
But, in answering the question itself, I agree with the above that the anatomically easy stuff should happen first.
Part of what made American Werewolf in London so effective, besides pointing out that shapeshifting would be painful, is that it didn't happen as people were used to seeing it. His face changed last, and moviegoers were not used to the idea of a four-legged werewolf, so seeing David Kessler watch his hands stretch came as a shock.
One technique if you're wanting a disturbing approach is asymmetry. I'm surprised we haven't seen it, though I would expect it to cause problems. If the left side of the face shifts ahead of the right side, you can have the great shock of having the person turn his or her head and have one eye glowing, plus fur and a wolf ear.
But, asymmetry might not be anatomically that plausible, especially where the brain is concerned, which already has the biggest burden of the shapeshifting process, having to shed more than half its volume in a manner that preserves memory, or at least holds its memory in a restorable format. (Compressing the NTFS drive while rebooting into Linux?)
If you're aiming more for an elegant and beautiful approach, which is so seldom done considering the beauty of both the human form and that of the wolf, I suggest shifting the body in two steps. The first introduces minor changes except for coating the body with fur. The person becomes something similar to Old School werewolves, only much more polished and anatomically accurate, with facial features that are drawn more from real wolves than copying the consensus of horror movies. The second half shifts the body evenly at once, though I do in my mind fudge and give the head and face a head start.
I generally don't picture my own werewolves having fixed forms or stages of transformation, though I do write of those who shift slightly, become a wolf, appear fully human, and so forth. I do describe assuming "hybrid wolf form," but the wolf anthropomorph body isn't a hard-wired fixed form among my take.
(Oddly enough, when I first started daydreaming about werewolves back in 1987, I came up with five discreet stages that were more or less the same as the five out of White Wolf's Werewolf: the Apocalypse, with two important exceptions. First, I conserved mass, so a stage III transformation was not a towering nine foot behemoth like the "crinos" form, and second, my stage IV form had more human qualities than the "hispo" monster wolf form in White Wolf. I dropped the five stages in favor of smooth shifting by 1990 or so, but I used my early work as a point of reference in my mind's eye for picturing some forms before the therianthropy movement and exposure to anthro art with more realistic wolf aspects gave me better points of comparison.)
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
-
Howling Fan
- Legendary
- Posts: 262
- Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:50 pm
Forgive me for going back to the well, but if there must be a TF order (you asked), it's good to study the classics. Of course, I'm referring to none other than "The Howling" and "American Werewolf in London." Yes, I'm sure you're sick of members, including me, mentioning these two films, but honestly, has any other movie really come close to matching their greatness, not just the detailed TFs but also the characters and story? I would start, as these two films started, with the hands first: claws coming out of their fingers, palms puffing into paws, etc. Then the hair should start growing, as well as the body's growth. If the person is wearing clothes, these should start tearing, as in "The Howling." Now the fangs should start growing, gums bleeding, etc., but not too much. We'll save that for later. The eyes begin to glow now (choose your color: yellow, green, red, but not black or brown; it's hard to make those colors glow). Next, we see the feet transform (though "The Howling" failed to show us this treat, which is a shame cos I love the angled, wolfish limbs of the Bottin biped wolves). Finally, the hair continues growing as the ears perk up. After the ears are fully grown, the muzzle should start forming, stretching the entire mouth. At this point, the fangs will come in fuller. And since both movies failed to show us any tail growth, I'll have to throw in my own addition. I really think the full blossoming of the tail should come last, just after the muzzle growth. We should see a stub forming at the base of the spine in the beginning stages of the TF, like after the fangs first come in, but it shouldn't really grow and become furry until the end, like the finale to the whole experience.
And that's my two cents, as well as the reliable two cents of those classic '80s flicks.
And that's my two cents, as well as the reliable two cents of those classic '80s flicks.
-
Vuldari
- Legendary
- Posts: 3355
- Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 9:16 pm
- Custom Title: Aspiring "Reverse" Kitsune
- Gender: Male
- Location: Lakeville MN - (USA)
- Contact:
Indeed, it is definately a good idea to look back at the best TF's of films past for ideas on how to and how NOT to do a TF sequence, however, I strongly encourage the filmakers to "mix things up" as needed if the change makes logical sense, or provides better dramatic effect. Pesonally, I like Terastas' order better than the ones you descibed. ...IMHO.Howling Fan wrote:Forgive me for going back to the well, but if there must be a TF order (you asked), it's good to study the classics. Of course, I'm referring to none other than "The Howling" and "American Werewolf in London."
Howling Fan wrote: Yes, I'm sure you're sick of members, including me, mentioning these two films, but honestly, has any other movie really come close to matching their greatness, not just the detailed TFs but also the characters and story?
(On a completely seperate note, though those two films were definately the Best "Werewolf" films, I would hesitate to describe either as "Great" films in general. ...again, IMHO.)
-
Set
- Legendary
- Posts: 3236
- Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 5:34 pm
- Custom Title: Devil in disguise
- Gender: Male
...Am I the only one who thinks the fur should come near-last? I dream about werewolves alot, and every time they TF the fur is almost always pretty much one of the last things to start growing/changing. I realize that it would make more logical sense for the fur to come early but I'm rather fond of my oddball dream shifts. They tend to go in this order:
Eye color changes first. For example for a person with brown eyes changing into yellow, the yellow would form a ring of color on the outside of the iris and work its way in gradually changing the brown to yellow. For a blue eyed person going through the same thing the eye would first turn green and then change to yellow. The shape of the eyes is also morphing at this point.
The fingernails start to grow. This does tend to end up with the person looking like they have claws. If the nails are to change to black they do so now. Pads begin to form on the hands and feet.
Next is the head. The face starts to form a sort of mini-muzzle as it stretches and the nose blends into the lip. The nose becomes more wolf-like but not comepletely yet. Canine teeth begin to get more pointed but do not grow to their full length until later. Ears become pointed but do not start to move up to the top of the head until after the fur begins to grow, which doesn't happen until later.
Mmkay now for the legs. The feet gradually change from plantigrade to digitigrade but don't lengthen a whole lot at first. The toenails become wolf-like. By now the pads are pretty well formed but don't take on the more wolfish form until the entire leg begins to transform.
The ears move to the top of the head at the same time the tail begins to grow. As they do the fur begins to come in. The rest of the body then completes any skeletal changes needed, the muzzle itself not full length until the very end of the TF.
Kind of strange, I know. But I like it. *shrugs* It tends to happen faster when the were is feeling angry or, in the case of a female, having "that time of the month". (and I don't mean the full moon) Gods forbid the femme were is both. That would be a right quick TF eh?
Eye color changes first. For example for a person with brown eyes changing into yellow, the yellow would form a ring of color on the outside of the iris and work its way in gradually changing the brown to yellow. For a blue eyed person going through the same thing the eye would first turn green and then change to yellow. The shape of the eyes is also morphing at this point.
The fingernails start to grow. This does tend to end up with the person looking like they have claws. If the nails are to change to black they do so now. Pads begin to form on the hands and feet.
Next is the head. The face starts to form a sort of mini-muzzle as it stretches and the nose blends into the lip. The nose becomes more wolf-like but not comepletely yet. Canine teeth begin to get more pointed but do not grow to their full length until later. Ears become pointed but do not start to move up to the top of the head until after the fur begins to grow, which doesn't happen until later.
Mmkay now for the legs. The feet gradually change from plantigrade to digitigrade but don't lengthen a whole lot at first. The toenails become wolf-like. By now the pads are pretty well formed but don't take on the more wolfish form until the entire leg begins to transform.
The ears move to the top of the head at the same time the tail begins to grow. As they do the fur begins to come in. The rest of the body then completes any skeletal changes needed, the muzzle itself not full length until the very end of the TF.
Kind of strange, I know. But I like it. *shrugs* It tends to happen faster when the were is feeling angry or, in the case of a female, having "that time of the month". (and I don't mean the full moon) Gods forbid the femme were is both. That would be a right quick TF eh?
-
Kzinistzerg
- Legendary
- Posts: 2335
- Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:28 pm
-
Figarou
- Legendary
- Posts: 13085
- Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:27 am
- Custom Title: Executive Producer (Red Victoria)
- Gender: Male
- Location: Tejas
werewolf 1 (in human form) "Oh man, its starting to get cold out here and I forgot my jacket at home."
werewolf2 (in human form) "Well, since your good at controlled shifting, just grow fur on your body."
werewolf1 "Do you know how silly that sounds?" "I may end up looking like the Classic wolf man."
werewolf2 "Heh, you're right. That does sound silly. But try it anyways. I want to see if you CAN look like the classic wolf man."
werewolf2 (in human form) "Well, since your good at controlled shifting, just grow fur on your body."
werewolf1 "Do you know how silly that sounds?" "I may end up looking like the Classic wolf man."
werewolf2 "Heh, you're right. That does sound silly. But try it anyways. I want to see if you CAN look like the classic wolf man."
-
Kzinistzerg
- Legendary
- Posts: 2335
- Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:28 pm
-
Blade-of-the-Moon
- Legendary
- Posts: 514
- Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 6:47 pm
- Custom Title: Lurking Spirit
- Gender: Male
- Location: Under the Mountains of Tennessee
- Contact:
-
Howling Fan
- Legendary
- Posts: 262
- Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2004 10:50 pm
"(On a completely seperate note, though those two films were definately the Best "Werewolf" films, I would hesitate to describe either as "Great" films in general. ...again, IMHO.)"
I meant that they were the greatest werewolf films, not greatest films of all time. Of course, that honor would go to the original "Star Wars" Trilogy! (non-fans, please don't bite my head off)
I assumed, since this is a WW message forum and website, that people would understand that I was speaking about WW films in general, not film of any genre.
I meant that they were the greatest werewolf films, not greatest films of all time. Of course, that honor would go to the original "Star Wars" Trilogy! (non-fans, please don't bite my head off)
I assumed, since this is a WW message forum and website, that people would understand that I was speaking about WW films in general, not film of any genre.
-
Terastas
- Legendary
- Posts: 5193
- Joined: Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:03 pm
- Custom Title: Spare Pelican
- Gender: Male
- Location: Las Vegas
- Contact:
With loads of practice, that might be possible, but I don't think any werewolf would ever go through the trouble of learning how to shift partially just so they could not worry about stuff like dressing appropriately... Plus, the arrangement I set up was just the external stuff -- there'd also be some rearranging of the internal organs to better fit the werewolf form (but the camera wouldn't need to show that), so forcing only a partial shift could lead to some messed up anatomy.Figarou wrote:werewolf 1 (in human form) "Oh man, its starting to get cold out here and I forgot my jacket at home."
werewolf2 (in human form) "Well, since your good at controlled shifting, just grow fur on your body."
werewolf1 "Do you know how silly that sounds?" "I may end up looking like the Classic wolf man."
werewolf2 "Heh, you're right. That does sound silly. But try it anyways. I want to see if you CAN look like the classic wolf man."
Nah. It's Citizen Kane.Howling Fan wrote:I meant that they were the greatest werewolf films, not greatest films of all time. Of course, that honor would go to the original "Star Wars" Trilogy! (non-fans, please don't bite my head off)
-
Apokryltaros
- Legendary
- Posts: 1295
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:27 pm
- Custom Title: Imperial Weirdo And Insect Expert
- Location: Cleft of Dimensions
- Contact:
-
ABrownrigg
- Site Admin
- Posts: 1192
- Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:29 pm
- Contact:
OFFFICIAL SHIFTING ORDER:
Extremities first. (i.e. hands,feet, tail, ears,)
Eyes actually happen as well at this time, but eyes are just special.
Then torso, muscles, major bones, and face..
Fur fuzzes out at this time as well, but will finish its growth last.
I've done a few tests, if fur comes in first, then it looks like a human plushie getting blown up like a baloon. Ya gotta have the sweat, the skinstretching... brings out the drama, helps justify the emotions the characters are going through. I hope this doesnt dissapoint anyone, but its cinema.
Anthony Brownrigg
Extremities first. (i.e. hands,feet, tail, ears,)
Eyes actually happen as well at this time, but eyes are just special.
Then torso, muscles, major bones, and face..
Fur fuzzes out at this time as well, but will finish its growth last.
I've done a few tests, if fur comes in first, then it looks like a human plushie getting blown up like a baloon. Ya gotta have the sweat, the skinstretching... brings out the drama, helps justify the emotions the characters are going through. I hope this doesnt dissapoint anyone, but its cinema.
Anthony Brownrigg
-
Apokryltaros
- Legendary
- Posts: 1295
- Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2004 5:27 pm
- Custom Title: Imperial Weirdo And Insect Expert
- Location: Cleft of Dimensions
- Contact:
It sounds perfectly all right with me.ABrownrigg wrote:OFFFICIAL SHIFTING ORDER:
Extremities first. (i.e. hands,feet, tail, ears,)
Eyes actually happen as well at this time, but eyes are just special.
Then torso, muscles, major bones, and face..
Fur fuzzes out at this time as well, but will finish its growth last.
I've done a few tests, if fur comes in first, then it looks like a human plushie getting blown up like a balloon. Ya gotta have the sweat, the skinstretching... brings out the drama, helps justify the emotions the characters are going through. I hope this doesnt dissapoint anyone, but its cinema.
Anthony Brownrigg
Though, your balloon analogy now reminds me of how Siskel and Ebert said the transformation scene An American Werewolf In London looked like an "inflatable wolfman."
"I was all of history's great acting robots: Acting Unit 0.8, Thespo-mat, David Duchovny!"
-Calculon
-Calculon
-
Kzinistzerg
- Legendary
- Posts: 2335
- Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:28 pm
-
Figarou
- Legendary
- Posts: 13085
- Joined: Sun Nov 28, 2004 5:27 am
- Custom Title: Executive Producer (Red Victoria)
- Gender: Male
- Location: Tejas
ABrownrigg wrote:OFFFICIAL SHIFTING ORDER:
Extremities first. (i.e. hands,feet, tail, ears,)
Eyes actually happen as well at this time, but eyes are just special.
Then torso, muscles, major bones, and face..
Fur fuzzes out at this time as well, but will finish its growth last.
I've done a few tests, if fur comes in first, then it looks like a human plushie getting blown up like a baloon. Ya gotta have the sweat, the skinstretching... brings out the drama, helps justify the emotions the characters are going through. I hope this doesnt dissapoint anyone, but its cinema.
Anthony Brownrigg
I'm not dissapointed. Having the fur grow 1st is silly anyways.
I like that order and think it will look great on screen..
as as to the comment about not showing the internal changes, I was watching a movie on cable the other night (Underworld, I think) and they showed the heart beating faster and harder, ribs shifting and such from inside the torso..was pretty cool..but definitely not necessary..
as as to the comment about not showing the internal changes, I was watching a movie on cable the other night (Underworld, I think) and they showed the heart beating faster and harder, ribs shifting and such from inside the torso..was pretty cool..but definitely not necessary..
To Sleep..Perchance To Scream