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First of all: Hi, I'm new, but too boring to open an "Introductions"-thread *g*

The question, that I always ask myself, is, how much human and how much wolf should a half-wolf be? Most anthro pictures (I guess about 99%) are nothing more than a furry human body with paws and an animal's head. Doesn't make much sense to me. And I'm glad, that the movie will show better ideas.
But if my search was correct, one of the most significant differences of the torso between human and wolf hasn't been discussed, yet.

My idea is, that half-wolves shouldn't have solid collarbones like humans, because they would restrict the movement of the scapula (or shoulderblades); I envision a half-wolf to be bipedal as well as quadruped, so their scapula have to be at the back of the ribcage when they're walking on two legs, and on its side, when they're running on four legs - see bears for references.

Your ideas on this? [or maybe the link to the thread I overlooked *g*]

Keep in mind that a bear can run as fast as a horse — on the flat, and uphill — for comparatively short distances. It's downhill where they run into trouble, they tend to tumble head over heels.

Good question, though. Perhaps have the collarbones jointed where they join the breastbone?

Oh, and

Why have a collarbone at all? We don't need them. My mate has a genetic condition that affects his skeletal structure, so he has no collarbone. It doesn't cause him any problems.

Collarbones theoretically help in climbing, but cats, squirrels and raccoons seem to do well without them too.

Welcome aboard Focrow.

It depends on how you like your werewolves really.
Some people like the WOLFMAN from Monster Squad or the Old B&W movies styled.
Some like the Howling Style.
Some like American Werewolf in London/Paris style.
Some like Buffy's Oz style.
Some like Underworld's Lycans style.

See where i'm going. Its just a matter of taste. Myself i like most of them at the same time, because i see them different breeds of a basic creature type.

From Wikipedia:

The clavicle serves several functions:

* It serves as a rigid support from which the scapula and free limb are suspended. This arrangement keeps the upper limb away from the thorax so that the arm has maximum range of movement.
* Covers the cervicoaxillary canal (passageway between the neck and arm), through which several important structures pass.
* Transmits impacts from the upper limb to the axial skeleton.

Even though it is classified as a long bone, the clavicle has no medullary (bone marrow) cavity like other long bones. It is made up of spongy (cancellous) bone with a shell of compact bone. The clavicle bone is the only bone that does not have marrow. It is a dermal bone derived from elements originally attached to the skull.

Hellhound, good call.

Focrow wrote:First of all: Hi, I'm new, but too boring to open an "Introductions"-thread *g*

The question, that I always ask myself, is, how much human and how much wolf should a half-wolf be? Most anthro pictures (I guess about 99%) are nothing more than a furry human body with paws and an animal's head. Doesn't make much sense to me. And I'm glad, that the movie will show better ideas.
But if my search was correct, one of the most significant differences of the torso between human and wolf hasn't been discussed, yet.

My idea is, that half-wolves shouldn't have solid collarbones like humans, because they would restrict the movement of the scapula (or shoulderblades); I envision a half-wolf to be bipedal as well as quadruped, so their scapula have to be at the back of the ribcage when they're walking on two legs, and on its side, when they're running on four legs - see bears for references.

Your ideas on this? [or maybe the link to the thread I overlooked *g*]

I fully agree with you (as one of the few on this forum, I'm afraid).

Your idea isn't bad at all, and very interesting.

Actually, in a Werewolf, Collar bones could serve a very useful function.
As the Were undergoes the Shift: part one, and becomes Gestalt, the Collar bones serve as anchors for the shoulder blades and pull them around partway to the sides of the Ribcage, giving the Were the classic "Long reach" on Werewolves. The shoulder muscles thicken to hold everything in place in its new position, and so the Werewolf has huge shoulder development, again common in Were' nomenclature.
When the second, 'mini-'shift happens to turn the Were' into a quadruped, they again pull the Shoulder blades to the lower edge (front edge) of the Ribcage, making for a natural quad posture, rather than the a**-high form that happens when humans (non-mutated) try to go on all fours.
Seems simple enough to me, compared to the hinging, overlap/slip joints that make for a Were's retractable muzzle.

Morkulv wrote: I fully agree with you (as one of the few on this forum, I'm afraid).

Your idea isn't bad at all, and very interesting.

I agree. This area needs to be explored more. The collarbone and upper torso area do seem to be a deep mystery to those designing werewolf anatomy for movies. They don't seem to realize that, in a wolf, the collarbone is absent and the ribcage is flattened along the opposite axis (instead of having a flat chest and back with curved sides, like a human, canines have flat sides, with a curved chest and back). As a result, even when they show a werewolf in a quadrupedal form, they generally have an upper torso that looks all wrong in that stance, like a crab trying to scuttle along.

okay i dont really understand all the sciency talk but the thought popped into my head. wouldn't the shoulders be more easily dislocated if the collar bone weren't in place? that might serve as a problem when catching the faster prey like deer or elk.

It could be that the collarbone dissapears into the ribcage

Focrow wrote:From Wikipedia:

The clavicle serves several functions:

* It serves as a rigid support from which the scapula and free limb are suspended. This arrangement keeps the upper limb away from the thorax so that the arm has maximum range of movement.
* Covers the cervicoaxillary canal (passageway between the neck and arm), through which several important structures pass.
* Transmits impacts from the upper limb to the axial skeleton.

Even though it is classified as a long bone, the clavicle has no medullary (bone marrow) cavity like other long bones. It is made up of spongy (cancellous) bone with a shell of compact bone. The clavicle bone is the only bone that does not have marrow. It is a dermal bone derived from elements originally attached to the skull.

Hellhound, good call.

maybe it would serve the same use in the lycan form?

Sure it would, but it would also restrict a half-wolf's movement to bipedal only. As far as I understood the bio-mechanics - which is not very much, btw.

Shadow_in_the_Moonlight wrote:okay i dont really understand all the sciency talk but the thought popped into my head. wouldn't the shoulders be more easily dislocated if the collar bone weren't in place? that might serve as a problem when catching the faster prey like deer or elk.

If it works on real wolves to not have collarbones, it ought to work on werewolves too.

Just had a satori...take a look at meerkat musculo-skeletal structuring.

They are digitigrade, stand bolt upright from time to time, and drop to all fours to move about. Course, a wolf running with a stiffly-upright tail like a flagpole would look pretty weird, but other than that, meerkats do what we're envisioning a werewolf would do.

That's why I gave the bear as a reference. They walk on all fours, can stand upright and fight this way, they even sit down like like bipeds
Also they don't have a collarbone and, as you can see in the picture, can move their shoulderblades to the back of their ribcage.

I'd say, in the Gestalt form, you'd want to keep the collar bone since Gestalt uses a generally upright stance most of the time, and has a range of movement similar to a human's. Which is rather wide.

To draw from Focraw's thing from Wiki:

* It serves as a rigid support from which the scapula and free limb are suspended. This arrangement keeps the upper limb away from the thorax so that the arm has maximum range of movement.

Humans are damn flexible. Especially compared to wolves. Somehow I think lowering the range of movement by removing the clavicle would be beneficial. Especially when you add in:

* Covers the cervicoaxillary canal (passageway between the neck and arm), through which several important structures pass.
* Transmits impacts from the upper limb to the axial skeleton.

So, sans clavicle, there's some, I dunno, "health risks" I guess, since you have important structures not being covered and impact not being transmitted across a "axial skeleton" (whatever that is..) and rather focused on your upper limb.

Sounds kinda bad to me.


But wolf-form werewolf, well, wolves don't have a clavicle. So that thing gets lost. It works for wolves because wolves aren't set up like humans.

Why have a collarbone at all? We don't need them. My mate has a genetic condition that affects his skeletal structure, so he has no collarbone. It doesn't cause him any problems.

Know the name of the condition? After scanning through Wiki's article on a collarbone I can't imagine how it doesn't cause problems.

I mean there's a good 10 or so ligaments/muscles that attatch to that thing.

It's called cleidocranial dysplaysia.
I guess I should have said it doesn't cause major problems. But the worst thing that's caused my the lack of collarbone is that his shoulders do slip out of place fairly easily, but that's because the muscles and connective tissues that keep them in place are weak. The physiatrist told him that with physical therapy that could be fixed.

PariahPoet wrote:It's called cleidocranial dysplaysia.
I guess I should have said it doesn't cause major problems. But the worst thing that's caused my the lack of collarbone is that his shoulders do slip out of place fairly easily, but that's because the muscles and connective tissues that keep them in place are weak. The physiatrist told him that with physical therapy that could be fixed.

Ah.

Well it seems you can do something NIFTY with it :



Sadly the other possible ways it can manifest aren't as amusing as being able to do that.

Yes. Photo reference for a collarbone-less Gestalt.

That *is* a very nifty thingie Wonder if he goes around freaking his mom and cousins and girlfriend...that's what I'd do. Silly human tricks, "Hey, check this out! —"

Do they have side photos of that guy?

The floating scapula (the shoulderblade) is standard for quadrupeds. It just sits there, unconnected to any other bones, and is held in place by ONLY muscle. So yes, the scapular muscles have to be developed or the bone just slips around in there.

Just an offtopic question: why do you all call it "Gestalt"? It's just the German word for [form, figure, shape, build, stature].
It just really confuses me, because I am German and everytime I read that word, I stumble, because it takes me a while to understand, what it is used for...

I hope, this won't kill the discussion.

Aki wrote:

PariahPoet wrote:It's called cleidocranial dysplaysia.
I guess I should have said it doesn't cause major problems. But the worst thing that's caused my the lack of collarbone is that his shoulders do slip out of place fairly easily, but that's because the muscles and connective tissues that keep them in place are weak. The physiatrist told him that with physical therapy that could be fixed.

Ah.

Well it seems you can do something NIFTY with it :



Sadly the other possible ways it can manifest aren't as amusing as being able to do that.

Whoa....that looks like my mate, where did you find that pic? He is in medical journals for it.
^_^

Focrow wrote:Just an offtopic question: why do you all call it "Gestalt"? It's just the German word for [form, figure, shape, build, stature].
It just really confuses me, because I am German and everytime I read that word, I stumble, because it takes me a while to understand, what it is used for...

I hope, this won't kill the discussion.

In English "Gestalt" generally refers to some kind of combination. The reason we use it here in the way we do is because, early on, we had a lot of discussions about what term we should use for the transitional form in a werewolf that is approximately halfway between human and wolf. We didn't want to use any words that were specific to a particular fictional world (such as "Werewolf: The Apocalypse") and we ended up agreeing on "gestalt" or "gestalt form" as the word we would use.

Aki wrote:Ah.

Well it seems you can do something NIFTY with it :



Sadly the other possible ways it can manifest aren't as amusing as being able to do that.

Wow! Can we get one of these people hired to be the guy inside the werewolf suit?

*grin* I bet Daniel wouldn't mind that!