Methods of infection.

[Calypso Blue]

So next thing.. What makes you a werewolf.. some like genetics, some like the bite.. and if you're bitten and the next full moon you become a werewolf.. what happens if you're bitten DURING a full moon, under it.. would you change then?

[Guest]

Speaking in more general terms the wolf bite is one of the classical plot devices of the of the genre, and it works pretty well.

Assuming it's some sort of virus, then the bite makes sense because there's a chance of bodily fluids being exchanged and a virus being spread from one person to another. However, if it's indeed a virus, then it's far more likely to be spread during sexual intercourse, or sharing infected needles much like aids is. It should also be noted that things like aids can be transferred to a child while it’s developing in the womb, so it really is quite plausible that you could have an entire family of werewolves out there if this is indeed the method in which a werewolf is created.

If it's a curse, then a bite still works, as it's simply been established for so long. However, spreading such a curse through a bite simply isn't very effective. It's more likely that a person would be cursed by an item such as a ring or book then a bite. Nobody ever really accused magic of making complete sense though.

If I myself were making a movie, I'd make the actual becoming of a werewolf, a side effect of a spell. For example, say a lonely unpopular teenage boy finds a spell-book and reads of a spell that'll make him, strong, handsome, a man among men who will remain forever youthful, so long as they “follow the path of the wolf.” Considering how vague such a warning is, I could easily see people inadvertently transforming themselves into werewolves in return for things such as beauty and popularity.

Now, as to the actual trigger to the transformation, writers have a lot of lee-way there. There's of course the classic full moon bit, but that's been done quite a lot over the years. Emotions could be used just as well as lunar events to trigger a transformation. Perhaps the subject changes during an adrenaline rush, or when the subjects angry or sexually aroused. Then again, the subject could simply choose when and where he/she transforms. This would probably be the most useful method, as the subject could change forms in order to avoid being discovered.

[Guest]

No infection,its a hocus pocus dea with the devil kind of thing.

One thing I've noticed about the were community is they seem to
go into hero worship mode when they deal with their icon beasty.

"A beautiful magnificent predator" ' Gods gift to carnivores" " a deer should be pleased to give its life to such a wondrous killer"
and all that

I'd suggest two plot lines

teen full of know it all pride as a beautiful magnificent but cursed predator

gradually evolves into a flea bitten scaley fur patch missing mongrel dog

( from otherkin werewolf to Carpaccio devildog werewolf)

whilst at the same time maturing spiritually and mentally

hence the body goes downhill while the cursed soul matures and improves

Hence the tragedy
the older wiser better werewolf soul is doomed in the end
thanks to the deal with the devil

[dD]

That's right, werewolf saliva whether drunk or bitten onto someone is the cause of transformation.
That's awesome and lends itself to people who want to change through deals with spirits etc being able to so without being eaten.

[Guest]

No infection, its a hocus pocus dea with the devil kind of thing.

In my opinions specific deals the devil should be left out. It requires too much exposition, plus, it would take the werewolves down to the 2nd tier of villainy the moment you brought the devil into the picture.

One thing I've noticed about the were community is they seem to
go into hero worship mode when they deal with their icon beasty.

This is true, but most people aren’t were-fans or fur's. So they probably wouldn't worship their form initially, assuming they're even aware of it. Later on, if their mind descends into madness, then indeed they may worship their form, however, I see no reason to make that an inherent aspect of werewolf-dom.

I also have to take issue with the idea of werewolves inherently becoming more hideous as they progress. Should they age, of course, and age should be reflected in the wolf-man form. However, not only does this progressing evolution into a hideous beast serve no practical purpose, but it puts a very strong emphasis on close of shots of werewolves, which should be kept to a minimum in my opinion.

Simply put, when an audience doesn't get a clear picture of what something looks like, their imagination fills in the blanks, and the imagination is far more effective at scaring people make-up effects are.

That's right, werewolf saliva whether drunk or bitten onto someone is the cause of transformation.

Saliva itself is probably not a good method of infection in and of itself. If it were the saliva itself, then anytime a werewolf gave a person a decent kiss that person would become a werewolf. If it's a virus, then that risk isn't quite as prominent. If it's a magic, then we don't really know why a bite itself passes on the curse.

Anyhow, I'm not trying to shoot anyone down, just trying to get some critical thinking and debate going on. The more we talk about this subject and explore the different possibilities, the more useful our input will become.

Also, I’m sorry for forgetting to sign my previous entry under this topic. It was rather later and it simply slipped my mind.

[WolvenOne]

Dagnabit I forgot to sign my posts again!

Sorry everyone.

The first lines of the posts that're mine in this topic are.

In my opinions specific deals the devil should be left out. It requires too much exposition, plus, it would take the werewolves down to the 2nd tier of villainy the moment you brought the devil into the picture.

and

Speaking in more general terms the wolf bite is one of the classical plot devices of the of the genre, and it works pretty well.

Hopefully this'll clear up any confusion, and hopefully I won't make the same mistakes again in the future.

[Goldenwolf]

The reproductive ways I've come up with for my Kierrn is either being naturally born, or the bite. Being born that way can only happen between two Kierrn, and it is very rare. A Kierrn can change any human, however the likelyhood of that human surviving is rare (have to do this elaborate ritual and all that). If the human wants the change or is really strong, they can survive it. Most, however, do not survive. The other thing is the Kierrn do not have an unlimited supply of the substance needed to bring about the change. In fact, they only have a life time supply of around 6 or so tries. After that, they will no longer be able to do it. That way their numbers are controlled and we don't have a world crawling with werewolves

[Terastas]

It really depends on what kind of werewolf we're talking about. If you just want your stereotypical B-movie monster, then go with the "deal with the devil" routine.

If you want actual characters that people care about even though they have lycanthropy, your best bet is to classify lycanthropy as an infectuous syndrome and try to explain it scientifically.

In regards to the full moon, here's an idea: How about if, instead of the full moon having some magical influence on werewolves, they are instead photogenic, can shift at will, and prefer the full moon because, back in medieval times, a full moon was when you had the most light without the risk of overexposure faced with hunting in the daytime, so the full moon instead has a traditional value to werewolves instead of a supernatural one.

(BTW, I'm writing a ton about lycanthropy in a book I'm working on, so if you need any ideas, just drop me a line).

[Silverclaw]

I agree a lot with what Terastas said.

I would like to see it more as a genetic trait. Though I dont mind the bite idea. Any exchange of bodily fluids would "infect" a human.

[Silverfang]

If you want actual characters that people care about even though they have lycanthropy, your best bet is to classify lycanthropy as an infectuous syndrome and try to explain it scientifically.

In regards to the full moon, here's an idea: How about if, instead of the full moon having some magical influence on werewolves, they are instead photogenic, can shift at will, and prefer the full moon because, back in medieval times, a full moon was when you had the most light without the risk of overexposure faced with hunting in the daytime, so the full moon instead has a traditional value to werewolves instead of a supernatural one.

I would like to see it more as a genetic trait. Though I dont mind the bite idea. Any exchange of bodily fluids would "infect" a human.

I prefer the idea of it being a virus that alters someones DNA, rather some curse, go for more of a real life situation and it'll get more people interested as for being bitten;

f the human wants the change or is really strong, they can survive it. Most, however, do not survive.

Thats another good idea

[WolvenOne]

I would like to see it more as a genetic trait. Though I dont mind the bite idea. Any exchange of bodily fluids would "infect" a human.

The one problem with that, is simply the fact that it's, extremly unlikely that a virus could be spread by saliva. (Thank you high school health class!)

Virus's don't survive nearly as well in saliva as they do in blood, and even if a werewolf's gums are bleeding or something, when a person is bit, they bleed outwards. Thier own blood speeps out of thier body and that useually serves to wash away any forign fluids and keep any virus's from getting spread from one body from another.

It's not to say that it's impossible, it's just not very likely. If it is a virus, then it's far more likely to spread during sexual intercourse, much like aids is often spread.

of course, if this is mirroring aids exactly, then certain "segments" of the population would be at a much higher risk. So absolute realism, probably isn't absolutely neccesery here.

[Terastas]

Lycanthropy being infectuous would be the easiest to tie into a plot, and could also produce the most interesting results. Some people are immunte to some diseases, for example, but can pass them to others, which could be how lycanthropy survived throughout the centuries. It could also be that a lycanthropic shift is triggered by electronic impulses from the brain, and that maybe lycanthropy has been passed down from generation to generation through birth, intercourse and blood transfusions up until it's reactions are triggered again by spiritual weres like ourselves. That would make for a really interesting movie because, by that theory, half the population of America could have lycanthropy.

Ye' gawd, I'm bursting with ideas for this, and I'd love to share more but this is starting to sound way too much like the book I'm writing (I know that sounds selfish, but I'm imagining this worst case scenario: Every idea I submit gets used, then when I finish my book I get accused of copying Devoured).

One last thing I would like to suggest though is that a werewolf would consider someone referring to lycanthropy as an infection to be an insult, and would instead prefer to consider it a 'syndrome' or 'transfusion.' Someone newly infected or uneducated might call it that, but anyone that learns to live with lycanthropy should be offended at the implication that they have a disease.

[WolvenOne]

Lycanthropy being infectuous would be the easiest to tie into a plot, and could also produce the most interesting results. Some people are immunte to some diseases, for example, but can pass them to others, which could be how lycanthropy survived throughout the centuries.

I'll have to take your word on this. I know that some people don't seem to get colds or whatnot, but I have no clue if a persons immune system would allow them to escape from werewolf-ism while still being able to pass it on.

I'm simply not an expert on virus's.

If indeed some people are immune though, I would imagine that some werewolves, might chance becoming intimate with somebody if they're lonely enough. Of course they're likely to try to improve thier chances of not spreading it by using condomes and such, but it's my understanding that those things don't always prevent STD's and other viruses spreading.

Keep in mind, I only have a passing knowledge of this subject. If you really want to know the chances of such things spreading this way, I would ask somebody else.

Anyhow....

Werewolfism, isn't a condition that would exactly become immedietly known, and this would likely help spread the diesease very quickly in some cases. If, for example, a hooker contracted the virus a few weeks before the full moon, he or she could infect dozens of people before she/he became aware of the infection.

Another potential scenerio is of course the blood transfusion idea somebody floated earlier. In two weeks time, somebody can give enough blood for, two or three people, so it is theoretically possible that several people could contract werewolfism that way.

Hmm... actually, the more I think about this, the more likely it seems to me that a portion of the general population would need to have an immunity to this virus. Otherwise, an absolutely huge portion of the population could potentially be infected.

[Soty]

It really depends on what kind of werewolf we're talking about. If you just want your stereotypical B-movie monster, then go with the "deal with the devil" routine.

If you want actual characters that people care about even though they have lycanthropy, your best bet is to classify lycanthropy as an infectuous syndrome and try to explain it scientifically.

Why not have both? You could always have one (or maybe several?) initial werewolves who contracted it through some sort of psuedo-religious curse, but then the original werewolve(s?) pass it on to other less willing/ordinary people? It would create an interesting dichotomy, however then you might have to kiss the whole historic bloodlines and such good bye. Of course, no one's to say that these folks would have been the first to summon this sort of thing.

Would be interesting to see what sort of steps the institutions of old might have taken to abolish the knowledge of the very existance of such a ritual.

[Dr. T]

I always favored transfer of bodily fluids as the cause of what makes someone a werewolf. It's a more "realistic" approach and opens up the possibilites of more creative methods of transfer. Of course, you'd have the traditional bite, but you could expand upon the theme.

Perhaps the "virus" lays dormant until the moon appears (and I was always a fan of varying degrees of TF according to the intensity of the moon). Before the actual TF begins, the "virus" becomes active and can be transferred. So, for example, maybe an infected girl is out with her friends prior to her actual TF. It's already nighttime, the moon is out, but not long enough for the virus to become strong enough in her blood to trigger the change. It is, however, active. She's drinking a coke and shares a sip with her friend, thereby passing the virus on. Now they're both infected and will both transfer later tonight.

To elaborate, in this scenario, the virus goes dormant durning the day. It is triggered by the moon rise (in any phase) and begins to coarse through the blood. Eventually, it will reach a point where it has become strong enough to trigger a TF, the amount of which depends on the phase of the moon. So, for a half moon, the infected may only be half the werewolf they would be on a full moon. Perhaps they remain upright, retain more of their human mind, don't grow as strong, even maintain a rudimentary ability to communicate, albeit in a primal form, sort of like the Incredible Hulk (i.e. "Werewolf kill", "Me hungry", stuff like that.) In the case of a full moon, the human is almost entirely gone and the werewolf is bigger, meaner and definitely more dangerous.

Back to other possible scenarios with a virus type infection. Of course, you have, sexual relations, wheter it's simply "making out" or full-fledged sex. The aforementioned sharing a drink or food. You also have something as simple as sneezing near someone, sharing a toothbrush, etc. It's wide open to possibilities.

[Vuldari]

To be kind to the people who have to make the special effects for this movie, I would advise against makeing Lycanthropy as easy to pass on as "sharing a Coke". Having packs of new Werewolves running around everywhere would suck up the SFX budget really quick.

Although, I do find the idea amusing. Maybe someday...in another movie...

[Terastas]

Hmm... actually, the more I think about this, the more likely it seems to me that a portion of the general population would need to have an immunity to this virus. Otherwise, an absolutely huge portion of the population could potentially be infected.

*nod-nods* That's true. That's why when I presented that possibility, I included the requirement of lycanthropy being activated by specific nerve impulses in order to trigger a shapeshift. The idea was that lots of people have it, but the syndrome would only be active in certain environments. I thought electronic signals from the brain concerning lycanthropy would be a good one because, as this is a horror movie, it would present to anyone in the audience that has ever had surgury or a Vegas weekend could very well have lycanthropy, but since they never thought about it, they never shapeshifted... Except thanks to the movie, now their thinking about it.
Of course, now the consensus is that lycanthropy is going to be a more adrenaline-based syndrome, so that whole idea I'd posted earlier is somewhat obselete.

Anyway, back to methods of infection: It is true that saliva filters a lot of bactirium and other impurities in the air, so unless lycanthropy was an exception, it would have to involve a direct connection from the werewolf's blood to the recipient.

I'm going to have to address this in parts, but don't worry, I'll tie all of these together:

- The current concept of lycanthropy is one that reacts to increased adrenaline.

- According to Don Henrie (the vampire from Mad, Mad House), practictioning vampires, for lack of a better word, drink blood in order to take the doner/victim's life magic. Don refers to it as Chi, which, based on the descriptions I've heard, is generated the same way the human body produces adrenaline. By that logic, vampires drink blood for the adrenaline in it.

- Vampires in the movies suck blood through their fangs, which in turn cause infection. The easiest explanation would be that a vampire's fangs are hollow and can transfer fluids straight to the bloodstream. Therefore, while the victim's blood is being transferred to the vampire, some small portions of the vampire's blood could be transferred to the victim.

So what I was thinking was that, since a lycanthropic shift is an adrenaline-based reaction, vampires require additional adrenaline and acquire it (in theory) through their hollow fangs, maybe a werewolf's fangs could have a similar structure. They wouldn't necessarily need to suck blood the way a vampire would since the shapeshifted form is a result of their own excess adrenaline, but in the event that they did decide to bite someone, a small ammount of their blood would be transferred to the recipient.

I know that's a long shot (especially since I used a taboo word like 'vampire' to explain it), but it would explain the whole biting thing.

[Vuldari]

I never much liked the "hollow teeth" idea, which I've heard before.

In relation to the Bite being the point of transferance, I also seem to recall a deep scratch form a Werewolfs claws being equally effective. The way I see it, the critical point is that the skin of the Victiim is broken and either the fangs or claws of the Werewolf are deeply lodged in their flesh for a moment. It is only when the victims body is actively invaded by the attacking Lycanthropes, active, recently transformed and likely still alive, Werewolf Cells/ Virus/ Whatever, that the "curse" is passed on.

[Apokryltaros]

I always thought that the vampire's fangs were simply used to puncture the skin and that they caught the flowing blood in their mouths.

As for a possible means of infection/transmission of lycanthropy, I remember reading in an article about Komodo dragons in that, they have a bacterial symbiote in their blood stream, and that they usually kill their prey by infecting them with their symbiote, unless they opt to do something else, like, say, ripping off their hindlegs in one bite. They infect their prey with their symbiote through their bite, and they do this in that, their gums cover their teeth, and whenever they bite down on something, the teeth lacerate their own gums, and thus, inject a bit of blood into the wounds they make. Should the prey escape, the bacteria strain is extremely virulent, and the prey soon succumbs to the infection within a few hours at most, and is either dead or in no condition to resist when the Komodo dragon comes looking for its meal.


Perhaps lycanthropes can use a similiar method of infection? After all, I would think that a mouth full of lengthening fangs would produce some bleeding gums, or at least that, enough of the infectious agent, virus or bacteria or magical cursed fluid, etc would be present in the mouth so that if a changed werewolf bites someone, that person would then become infected, as well.

[guest]

I think people are overlooking the curse thing too much. Couldn't lycanthropy come about as a malignant spell against someone else. Say a witch decides they can cause more trouble by turning an innocent person into a killing machine against thier will. Or maybe somebody could seek their help in a nonselfish way, say to save their boyfirend/girlfriend from cancer or something, and the ceremony the witch performs is really one that grants Lycanthropy. Since it would be voluntary, although they were duped, you could have thier soul be destroyed, even if they keep thier conscious. I just like that tinge of trajedy, being damned for something you were unaware of even though you are a good person, just so fatalistic and could add something new to this kind of movie.

[NightmareHero]

I posted this in another topic, I hope it helps

But they're not a species. They're a venerial disease

If they weren't a new species, then they wouldn't have male and female members, and they wouldn't be able to mate and procreate.

I don't think of werewolfism as a disease, or a curse, but maybe some type of one celled virus that mutated inside of a normal wolf in ages past. The virus took some of the wolf's genes, and was then passed to a human by biting. The virus integrated itself into the human's DNA and thus made the virus AND the wolf DNA a part of the humans genetic makeup, allowing for it to be passed.

A disease implies poor health, and a curse implies doom and gloom. Neither I feel needs to be the case if a werewolf was born like this and has lived a healthy, natural life without too much tragedy. That of course doesn't rule out the possibilty for conflict in the story.

Virus/venerial disease, denotes something that is negative, and realistically speaking, there is no such thing as real "werewolfism" because there has been no documented case where individuals with an overgrowth of hair have actually developed into canine like creatures. Werewolfism in reallife is a nickname given to a genetic disorder in humans who develop an overgrowth of hair over their body, not a transformation into a canine like creature.

I think if this movie is to connect with the audience, and allow the audience to connect with the characters, then there should be no "pity" for the characters that have lived with it all of their lives, maybe some pity however with the newly transformed as they try to cope with the new sensations and the pain. werewolves should not be looked down upon if they are the protagonists, but should dare I say, be admired for their prowess and pressence. The conflict in this story should stem from character motivations such as greed and power, NOT from using a "hereditary virus" as the reason for their motivations, and the basis of conflict in this story, doing so otherwise would cheapen the plot and believabilty, if we are to believe that the intention of the filmmakers is to make werewolves more mainstream, and more "mythical", instead of "horror" creatures

[WolvenOne]

First off, except for general purposes of debate, the exact cause of werewolfism, for the purposes of the film, probably isn't neccesery.

Simply put, doctors, scientists, and whatever, probably don't know of the existence of werewolves, and the werewolves themselves probably wouldn't have the resources to study what makes them tick.

That being said, it seems it has been settled that there's SOMETHING within a werewolves blood that causes other people to become werewolves themselves. It may be a virus, or maybe some sort of venum, or maybe a magical curse. However it really doesn't matter what it is, in the end result is the same, whomever gets the blood in thier system, becomes infected with werewolfism.

This means that werewolfism should be able to be spread around in various ways. Sharing needles, having unprotected hanky-panky, heridtically, and of course, being bitten could spread it.

Now, biting a person may not "always," infect a person, but the bleeding gums thing is resonable.

Plus there's the simple fact of the matter that after a person transforms thier gums may've been cut up by the growing of thier teeth. More like then not that'd heal up before too long, but for a few hours at least there would be traces of infection within the werewolves mouth.

There is of course the fact that a werewolf probably isn't going to try biting a person unless they're trying to kill him, because of this it's hard to venture a guess how often a werewolf bite could infect a person with werewolfism. It could be 1 out of every 10 bites, could be 9 out of every 10, who knows really. I would venture to guess that the the chances for infection via this method are fairly high.

As for claws, wolf claws really arn't meant for ripping flesh, so I wouldn't guess that werewolf claws would be too good at it either. Even if they could though, unless they're bleeding, I cannot see anyway for the virus to spread unless the werewolf were gushing blood or something.

On an unrelated note. I like the idea that the change is triggered by strong emotions or an adenaline rush. Constantly struggling against your inner beast just seems like what the werewolf legend to all about to me.

Anyhow, I hope this was helpful, laters all.

[Apokryltaros]

I don't think of werewolfism as a disease, or a curse, but maybe some type of one celled virus that mutated inside of a normal wolf in ages past. The virus took some of the wolf's genes, and was then passed to a human by biting. The virus integrated itself into the human's DNA and thus made the virus AND the wolf DNA a part of the humans genetic makeup, allowing for it to be passed.

Um, a virus is not a cell, and all virii cause disease. It is true that some virii can introduce new DNA sequences into a new host from a previous, though. In most cases, though, these virii cause cancers as a result.

[NightmareHero]

I don't think of werewolfism as a disease, or a curse, but maybe some type of one celled virus that mutated inside of a normal wolf in ages past. The virus took some of the wolf's genes, and was then passed to a human by biting. The virus integrated itself into the human's DNA and thus made the virus AND the wolf DNA a part of the humans genetic makeup, allowing for it to be passed.

Um, a virus is not a cell, and all virii cause disease. It is true that some virii can introduce new DNA sequences into a new host from a previous, though. In most cases, though, these virii cause cancers as a result.

then maybe perhaps a one celled bacteria that acted like a virus. "Viral Bacteria" bacteria that is readily present in transformed werewolves mouths.

[Apokryltaros]

I don't think of werewolfism as a disease, or a curse, but maybe some type of one celled virus that mutated inside of a normal wolf in ages past. The virus took some of the wolf's genes, and was then passed to a human by biting. The virus integrated itself into the human's DNA and thus made the virus AND the wolf DNA a part of the humans genetic makeup, allowing for it to be passed.

Um, a virus is not a cell, and all virii cause disease. It is true that some virii can introduce new DNA sequences into a new host from a previous, though. In most cases, though, these virii cause cancers as a result.

then maybe perhaps a one celled bacteria that acted like a virus. "Viral Bacteria" bacteria that is readily present in transformed werewolves mouths.

A bacterium does not act like a virus.
A bacterium, unlike a virus, is alive, and has its own cytoplasm and all bacteria are one-celled..