No Fur Suits! They are a loss

[Matt]

Many times in WW movies, the costume is so heavy with fur alot of the anatomy is lost under it. There should definately be a covering, but I think we should be able to make out skin tone variations and texture differences (comparitively from human to wolf). I realise that WW movies of the past probably did this due to a constricted budget, but thats what this movie is here to not repeat. It needs to be more physical with flesh, as opposed to matted fur that really looks no better that any store bought ape suit.

Also, has a decision been made as to these werewolves walking on all fours or on two?

[Kaebora]

We've been shown the clay concept models of the cotume peices. It's part asthetic, part CG, so some blue or green masking will cover parts of the actor. Most likely the face and the lower legs. It wont be the garden variety WW costume. Don't worry.

[KaninZ]

That sounds like a great combo. One of the best representations of a werewolf that I've seen to date was in an episode from the new Dr Who series (Episode name was "Tooth and Claw"). They seemed to have a great blend of suit with animatronics/CGI going.
That being said they were also guilty of one of my biggest turn-offs in werewolf movies. When they were relying on the suit they used the old "only give them a quick glimpse so they can't tell it's fake" camera work. With the quality of suits and animatronics today that's so not needed. All you get is jerky camera work, disruption of the "flow" of the story while the audience experiences visual whiplash piled on top of disappointment with a cheesy aftertaste

[Silver]

Hey, just want to add my two here. We are NOT going to create fur tents with arms and legs. No left over shag carpet glued to a body suit . No heads made out of rubber with crocodile hinged jaws. Our goal is to use a combination of makeup, costume, animatronics, and graphics.

We want the Gestalt form to be a good mix of human and wolf. Now, you can't see skin tones on a wolf - not really. But you can see structure, movement, that kind of thing. That's what Anthony is aming for.

It's a ways from being set in stone - but we know there are several artists that would love to make a more realistic (if you will) and more asthetically pleasing Gestalt.

We want our guys to be believable in all forms and we're going to try for that.

Hope that gives you somewhat of an answer.

[twirrlacurl]

The only major problems with the fur suits i've seen is that the fur looks like torched barbie hair, and the other one is that they add too much fake drool to the head and mouth region..when really wolves aren't like a mastiff and they don't drool buckets and buckets... But I know Freeborn won't have the drool problem.

[Kaebora]

This thread talks about the costume possibilities, and what has already been worked on:
http://www.thepack.network/thepackboard ... highlight=

[Set]

Whatever they come up with is going to be good. Why?

...Because the Pack will eat them if it's not.

[RedEye]

For that matter, it's easy enough to use a "no-see" Kroma spandex suit, with patches of Fur in the appropriate places, for close ups.

In a way, being a bit slow in the Production of the film allows more and better CG to develop, and more spohisticated appliances to be developed, all on somebody else's dime.
Let them spend fortunes on the R&D; once it's out, Freeborn will have better-than-ever computer matte and C.G.shots already developed and in the mainstream. That means more and better Quality without having to pay the cost of development.
Every time someone uses a "First ever" effect, they pay through the nose for it. Later projects get things quite a bit less expensive.
The wait will be worth it.

[Scott Gardener]

Fur is one of the major challenges that is why so many werewolves look so bad on screen. Too much fur can indeed mute body features. But, too little fur leads to the hairless rat look. That was a problem mentioned in Underworld's DVD extras. Heck, Brownrigg mentioned the same problem at least once or twice. CGI doesn't get off any easier, since rendering fur involves a lot of work.

[RedEye]

One of the major problems with past Werewolf movies is that the Werewolf looks like he or she was attacked by a rabid blow-dryer, set on incinerate.
The Fur looks like and explosion in a mattress factory, and real Wolves don't look that way. Keep the Fur close to the body, just like real wolves do, and a fur-covered body looks much better, with the features actually enhanced, rather than muted.
Since there are going to be Renders, anyway, for the movie, why not use some natural-appearing color patterns of fur, like you see on the baseform: Wolf to begin with?
Having Werewolvbes with distinct color patterns in their fur would make them more real and more identifyable.
It would also lead to making them less horrific, and more beautiful, just like their wolf "cousins". They needn't be excessive; look aa the Wolficons for one example of fur patterning.
What's wrong with having a Werewolf look like a real wolf, in the fur department? It could be patterned, and close to the body, following the contours of the Were's body form, with the only really fuzzy parts of the body being the Ruff and the Tail. That would look really good!

[Kaebora]

Another option would be to use real fur. Of course many of the pre-production fans are animal lovers, and might resent that. But it is true that real hair would be easier to comb flat.

[Kaebora]

Hey, just want to add my two here. We are NOT going to create fur tents with arms and legs. No left over shag carpet glued to a body suit . No heads made out of rubber with crocodile hinged jaws. Our goal is to use a combination of makeup, costume, animatronics, and graphics.

We want the Gestalt form to be a good mix of human and wolf. Now, you can't see skin tones on a wolf - not really. But you can see structure, movement, that kind of thing. That's what Anthony is aming for.

It's a ways from being set in stone - but we know there are several artists that would love to make a more realistic (if you will) and more asthetically pleasing Gestalt.

We want our guys to be believable in all forms and we're going to try for that.

Hope that gives you somewhat of an answer.

Just a thought that occured to me, but if you want to cut costs, why not make just two suits? One for male, one for female. That way, you can composite the actors into the shots where multiple weres are present. Give the illusion that there are many when in actually there are only one or two being recorded over and over. Interchangable fur could give different patterns to the werewolf costumes for different shots to enhance the illusion. However, if the composite work is sloppy it could look quite bad.

[In_Cruce_Salus]

Another option would be to use real fur. Of course many of the pre-production fans are animal lovers, and might resent that. But it is true that real hair would be easier to comb flat.

Great idea, but like you said, most of the people here would start foaming at the mouth.

Why not use human hair? It would be like a full body wig. Though, I guess that human hair and wolf fur aren't very similar. My dog's fur is a lot finer than mine, and he has a lot more of it than I do. Still, using human hair for the werewolves' fur wouldn't cause the outrage that using real fur would cause (unless you just shave a couple of dogs. That's what we do to my dog in the summer).

[Set]

Real fur isn't cheap, you know.

I think most people just don't know how to work with fake fur. They make crappy choices when buying the stuff, and when they get it the don't know what to do with it, so it ends up looking bad. It's not that hard if you get decent quality stuff. I made a beautiful tail and ear set out of stuff that I found on sale at the fabric store. You can get very good results if you actually put a little effort into it.

By the way...human hair would probably cost more than mink! I've seen wigs made out of human hair, you have to give the store owner a few limbs to pay for the damn things. Getting enough of it to work with a suit would be difficult. There's issues with length, color, and the fact that they just plain don't make human hair with cloth backing like you find on fake fur.

[vrikasatma]

Real fur isn't necessary, and would look wrong anyway. Plus it'd be a pain to go to the trouble and expense of making the fursuits (you'd need at least 3-4 fairly well-matched ones to do one person) and then storing them in a walk-in refrigerator forever.

What I'd do, is get a good look at a taxidermy mount, or even buy one. Sure, it's still a dead wolf but that's just it, it's one, it's not a whole pack, like you'd need with real fur suits. The purpose of the mount: to serve as reference. A live wolf would be good, but it'd be a pain to get them to stand still for the artists to probe, look up close and circle around. We of course know that they wouldn't hurt the wolf, but the wolf wouldn't know that and would resent having his space violated like that. Get a taxidermied wolf and the artists can poke, stroke, fluff, touch, circle and everything else to their heart's content.

[edging away from the burgeoning fur debate]

What I don't like about (faux wolf) fur costumes is that the fur is one colour, and there are no patterns. Wolves have <i>manes</i>, like lions but shorter. Take a look in a wolf's mane, there are a number of cowlicks. They aren't just flat fuzz covering the neck, jawline and shoulders. They're hanks of guard hairs that grow out at different angles, and they're not all the same colour, like a cougar's or a horse's. Even the so-called "solid" coloured wolves have some variegation; for instance, you'll see red and silver hairs in a black wolf's pelage, and gold and black hairs scattered through a white wolf's pelage. Their hair is usually ticked, like on a tabby cat. Black edges on ears and eyebrows, et alia.

Edit: I just had a thought. Goldie makes her wolf masks with manes made of hair from horse tails. From what I saw, she buys them as dead and cut-off tails from the slaughterhouse.... ....but one need not go that far. Just get in touch with the local boarding barn and/or horse breeder and ask them for the hair left over from grooming and trimming tails. There should be no trouble finding those, you're in Dallas...

Anyway, if you're looking for hair to make up the manes, that's a thought.

[RedEye]

Good idea, the Taxidermy mount; but why not just use photos?
Lemme explain: You need a wolf- or Werewolf shaped form (styro works well) and some muslin. Wrap the form in the muslin, or use double knit fabric covered with gaffer's tape (non-shiny Duct tape, usually but not always black). You now have a form. Take a picture of a wolf, or several
wolves with similar markings and mark on the form where the colors go and what the colors are. You now have a sort of three-dee paint by numbers dummy, and when you cut the fabric off the styrofoam form, it keeps it's dimensions and then you can flatten it out on a work table, and from that, make the suit out of 'fake-fur'.
The tape and markings will automatically give you a flat reference of the round body.
I have had several pairs of Ren-Faire boots made using this method: My foot and leg ( to the knee) was covered with a cheap nylon stocking, then the tape was put over my foot and leg in little patches, until when it was cut off, the makers had a sort of cast of my foot and leg to the knee, which was used to make the pattern for the boots. They fit perfectly, and I still wear them, since they are so very comfortable. I even went to the trouble of having a sole/heel combo put on one pair so it would last longer.
It shouldn't be that hard to transfer real Wolf fur patterns to the actor's suits, and then do the coloring of the "fur" to match the Wolf's coloring.
I've used the "tape and stretchy fabric" system to make patterns for facial appliances for friends, back when I was into costuming. They made great bases for building on top of, for latex and foam effects.
So, it should work here, too.

[Kaebora]

Well, I was kind of putting more emphasis on the reduction of how many suits are made by using compositing technology, and not how the fur is to look realistic. I'm a student of digital media, not costuming.

[vrikasatma]

Good idea, the Taxidermy mount; but why not just use photos?
Lemme explain: You need a wolf- or Werewolf shaped form (styro works well) and some muslin. Wrap the form in the muslin, or use double knit fabric covered with gaffer's tape (non-shiny Duct tape, usually but not always black). You now have a form. Take a picture of a wolf, or several
wolves with similar markings and mark on the form where the colors go and what the colors are. You now have a sort of three-dee paint by numbers dummy, and when you cut the fabric off the styrofoam form, it keeps it's dimensions and then you can flatten it out on a work table, and from that, make the suit out of 'fake-fur'.
The tape and markings will automatically give you a flat reference of the round body.

Photos are good if they're taken in good light, but they're 2D. Speaking from a sculptor's standpoint, photos are okay but a three-D reference is better. There's really no substitute for touching when it comes to getting a real experiential fix on something. Sculptors are kind of like scientists in that regard.

The idea with a taxidermy form wrapped in muslin and duct tape is a great idea, more economical (a lifesized mount would cost anywhere from $650 - $900, a form would cost about one-quarter that), and best of all it spares a wolf's life.
Anthony, Silver, if you decide to go with that route I can pass along a couple taxidermy supply resources, one very good one being just a half-hour north of me.

[Silver]

Okay, I just want to make it clear that Anthony, and not me, is making all these decisions - I'm the writer and co-producer. The special effects guys are the ones doing the important work of making our Weres look real. Long as there's no confusion about that.....

There's a lot of good stuff going on here. I agree that a lot of fake fur is just not pretty enough or accurate enough (like the manes). If I were dong it, I'd be blending lots of little bits and pieces to make the fur look the right length, with enough variety to give a realistic affect. Of course, I'm no expert on this stuff.


My guess is that, money being available, we'll get some people to custom make what fur we use. Again, my guess....there will be a lot of other tricks used as well.

[Set]

You might want to look up professional 'suiters and see how they put some of their stuff together. Those people have talent.

I could never make anything like this...

[Vuldari]

You might want to look up professional 'suiters and see how they put some of their stuff together. Those people have talent.

I could never make anything like this...

The air-brush work on that is nice, but I'm not terribly impressed with it's construction overall. It still looks like a stuffed animal toy more than real fur.

[outwarddoodles]

You might want to look up professional 'suiters and see how they put some of their stuff together. Those people have talent.

I could never make anything like this...

The air-brush work on that is nice, but I'm not terribly impressed with it's construction overall. It still looks like a stuffed animal toy more than real fur.

You kidding?

Those look great!

[vrikasatma]

Yeah, fake fur will never have the look of *real* fur. But, real fur is cost-prohibitive and socially unacceptable, so there's the trade-off.

When I opened that link and saw the thumbnails, I said "WOW!" Proceeded to bookmark and I'll be referring to it for reference/inspiration when I'm putting my puppet together.

[RedEye]

That mask is spooky-good. There's just one little goof, and that's the ears; they are obviously stick-ons (look at 5 of 9), but otherwise, the thing makes me wonder if there's a decapitated Wolf nearby.
What we don't see is the movement capacity of this piece, but if the ears would twitch and the eyes move- and maybe the mouth and lips move as well; I'd be h ard put to say it wasn't a 'cousin'.
Excellent, excellent work!

[vrikasatma]