What exactly is gestalt form?

[Scott Gardener]

It's the mid form.

But, in most people's minds, it's a particular sort of mid-form, one with a wolf-like head (as opposed to the old school "wolf-man" human head with fangs and fur added) and a digitigrade stance.

Some people picture werewolves having three forms--wolf, Gestalt, and human. Others picture just human and Gestalt. Still others picture multiple forms, including wolf, human, and various in-between stages. Mine have no fixed between form and can assume any sort of in between form, though the Gestalt mid-form is a comfortable medium.

The word "Gestalt" means a combination of the best elements of several modalities. It's most often (outside of here) used in psychology to refer to a school of thought that combines several different psychology theories.

[Vuldari]

is it when a were is in mid transformation? and if not then wat IS it called when a werewolf is in mid tf

It's the mid form.

But, in most people's minds, it's a particular sort of mid-form, one with a wolf-like head (as opposed to the old school "wolf-man" human head with fangs and fur added) and a digitigrade stance.

Some people picture werewolves having three forms--wolf, Gestalt, and human. Others picture just human and Gestalt. Still others picture multiple forms, including wolf, human, and various in-between stages. Mine have no fixed between form and can assume any sort of in between form, though the Gestalt mid-form is a comfortable medium.

The word "Gestalt" means a combination of the best elements of several modalities. It's most often (outside of here) used in psychology to refer to a school of thought that combines several different psychology theories.

Basically, What Scott said is correct...I just feel like paraphrasing.


"Gestalt", (As we use the term here in reference to Werewolves), is when a Werewolf is in a form That is neither fully Human nor Fully Wolf, but Something in between that has all of the abilities of BOTH creatures.

( IE: Has a strong, beastly body with the powerful teeth and claws of a wolf, as well as its enhanced senses of smell, hearing and night vision, but also retains the human talents of bi-pedal locomotion, [Walking Upright on Two Feet], and advanced Manual Dexterity, [ForePaws/Hands with nimble fingers and opposable thumbs which can grasp and do anything human hands can do] )

Beyond that, the specifics of the visual appearance of the "Gestalt" form is open to interpretation. Fur or NO Fur...Tail or NO Tail...Digitigrade or Plantigrade feet...etc, etc...are all secondary.

As long as the form has a near equal mixed blend of Human and Animal physical capabilities, then I think the form fits our definition of "Gestalt".

(However, I personally feel that if the mix is less even, such as an almost-human WolfMan form, or a form that is purely quadrupedal and is almost indistinguishable from a normal Ferral Wolf, even if it is much larger, then it is not technically "Gestalt" but a different form instead.)

[Kirk Hammett]

I was confused over the use of Gestalt for a long time myself. I kept getting different answers (not me asking questions but me reading other people's ideas on Gestalts). I'd certainly never heard of the word before I came here.

Where did it originate?

[Set]

The word itself is German, and as far as I know it means "form". Just that. Form. Therefore it sounds funny to German speakers, who read "gestalt form" as "form form".

[Aki]

The word itself is German, and as far as I know it means "form". Just that. Form. Therefore it sounds funny to German speakers, who read "gestalt form" as "form form".

Wikipedia also attributes a number of other meanings to it, including the one Scott mentioned. I imagine 'Gestalt' is like 'Adroit'.

In French, adroit is right. In English, one who is adroit is skilled.

[Silver]

Actually, I'm the one that coined it here for Weres. I thought it appropriate. We usually want to think of the mid-form as one where the best of both worlds meet - strength and senses of a wolf, intelligence of a human.

It sorta caught on.

[RedEye]

Gestalt sounds better than "Half-Done" or "Half-Wolf"...I've always imagined it as a standard Wolf body minimally adapted to upright posture and digitigrade locomotion. The shoulder-blades would be part way relocated around the ribcage, from the back (Human) to probably at the side of the ribcage but not the front: Human S'blades are at the 1:00-11:00 position, Gestalt S'blades are at the 2:00-10:00 position (sides but at the rear) and full Wolf S'blades are at the 3:30/4:00-8:00/8:30 position, where the forearms are just long enough for good quad locomotion. Think clock-face...
That's why they have those shoulder muscles: to hold their shoulders in place!

[deruty]

So the word is German and specifically means (here) a wolf headed half/mid-form?

Commenting on the shoulder blades thing there but......exactly how do you guys come up with things like that? I mean there is no real or at least proven way a werewolf should be built.......is there?

[Silver]

Umm no, it means, kinda, the whole is better (more) than the sum of the parts.

The final package is better than a blend of the two, so to speak. And that's how I see the mid form. The very best of both, even a little better in some areas.

I do believe the word is German, however.

[RedEye]

Why not have the "Gestalt" form as the BASE ( or natural form) of the Werewolf?
The Smooth (human) would represent one extent of their metamorphic ability, and the four-footed Wolf the other extremity of the form.
Why?
Well, first; it's the maximal adaptation of the two forms. Human smarts and dexterity, (although perhaps with only a two finger precision grip)* with Wolf strength and stamina and senses.
Doing this creates a separate and distinctive species and race, with specific strengths and weaknesses that are separate from both Human and Wolf in form and nature.
So, why wouldn't the Wolf do as well? Tool-use. Eye-height above the ground. Adaptability-to differing situations.
Using the Gestalt form as the base form also makes them more relatable; more understandable. They have similar weaknesses, especially in the spine (all upright walkers do) and similar strengths...like simply opening a door or using a telephone. As faculative bipeds, they share much more with us than they would as quadripeds, and they are more appealing; both physically and mentally.
That's my two bits...
* Precision Grip: The ability to touch thumb and fingers together so as to be able to pick something up. Humans have all four fingers in a precision grip arangement. My Were's have two fingers (index and middle) as precision grip and the others as "almost" touching. They aren't quite as dextrous as Humans (Smooths) but for all purposes, they can get by well enough.

Now...if I can just get some publisher interested in the manuscript...

[Vuldari]

Why not have the "Gestalt" form as the BASE ( or natural form) of the Werewolf?

Because a Werewolf is a Human that transforms into a Wolf...

A separate species which has the metamorphic ability to mimic the form and appearance of a Human or a Wolf, but which is Neither would be INTERESTING...but not a "Werewolf". It would be something else entirely...something new...something different.

[RedEye]

That's the point: one of the effects of the Viroid might be a change of base form from Human to Gestalt.
If they are still fertile with Humans ( which has been "documented" in myriads of movies), then they are still "Human enough" to be a species of Human, regardless of what they look like.
The "Smooth" form is just one of the three forms this mutated human can take. Let's remember that a Werewolf is a Metamorph, all the "shapes" are a part of that Meatmorph-ery(?).
Since the Werewolf is a metamorph first and foremost, they are either Humanoid in all forms (genetically) or they aren't Human at all, after the Crossing Over.
I chose to make them Mutated Metamorphic Humans with the "Gestalt" form as the new base form; it seemed logical at the time and still does.
They are Humans who turn into Wolves just like always; they just have a new base form; the Gestalt.
(Which looks like a Wolf that is slightly modified for upright activity...)
IMHO...

[Vuldari]

That's the point: one of the effects of the Viroid might be a change of base form from Human to Gestalt.
If they are still fertile with Humans ( which has been "documented" in myriads of movies), then they are still "Human enough" to be a species of Human, regardless of what they look like.
The "Smooth" form is just one of the three forms this mutated human can take. Let's remember that a Werewolf is a Metamorph, all the "shapes" are a part of that Meatmorph-ery(?).
Since the Werewolf is a metamorph first and foremost, they are either Humanoid in all forms (genetically) or they aren't Human at all, after the Crossing Over.
I chose to make them Mutated Metamorphic Humans with the "Gestalt" form as the new base form; it seemed logical at the time and still does.
They are Humans who turn into Wolves just like always; they just have a new base form; the Gestalt.
(Which looks like a Wolf that is slightly modified for upright activity...)
IMHO...

I was thinking about this while walking my dog today, and I think I finally get what you are saying. It's not a difficult concept...I was just hung up on the "Werewolves as a separate species" idea.

Just to clarify that I understand the concept...

Basically, if One were to become a Werewolf that, for whatever reason, was unable to Shape-Shift, (theoretically speaking, for arguments sake), after being bitten, they would still go through one PERMANENT transformation into a Gestalt form body. Their DNA has been re-written, and That is what they are now. However, With the shapeshifting ability, this WOLF-MAN would be able to temporarily change back into a form that resembles the Human that they Used-To be, as well as possibly change in the opposite direction into a full blown Quadrupedal Wolf.

...is that about right?

[RedEye]

Eggs Actley! Remember, for all the Hype; a Werewolf is nothing more than a Metamorph.
I suspect that as an energy saving and story preserving bit of development, that it's a linear sort of Polymorphery: Three forms: Smooth (Human), Gestalt (Tha' WereWuff), and the Full (Wolf quadruped).
The Gestalt is the base form because then there is only one level of Shifting to do-in either direction.
9-to-5, you're Smooth (maybe with some odd hangovers, like cup and point ears; odd teeth, and funny nails and feet). Everything not 100% human is hidden or hidable.
After Work, at home; you're Gestalt. You spend the least energy maintaining this form; you're basically a Wolf, modified for upright stance and having hands instead of forepaws.
On the Weekends, you do the little shift that slides your shoulderblades to the front (now bottom) of your ribcage and makes you a complete quadruped, differing from a real Wolf only in your hands and high forehead; maybe with some remenant of your Smoothskin hair between your ears.
Having the Viroid rewrite your DNA to Gestalt form saves you energy: you are actually spending energy being Smooth, rather than Gestalt.
You have one rule: never get drunk at a party-unless it's with your fuzzy friends...you'll 'slip' into the Gestalt form as you get smashed.
It's an idea I'm using in the manuscript--and I now have another agent peddling it.
Anyway; you have the idea. The Werewolf is actually a Metamorphic Gestalt. And if they spend a year without shifting, guess what: the hinges all solidify ( just for some suspense...)

[Kelpten]

I like the idea for this kind of werewolf, but it doesn't really work with my own version because it has no gestalt form. I worked out a kind of double DNA for the diferences between the forms that could switch between the two depending on what form the werewolf is in, relying on a fantastic cell division rate to enact the actual transformation (which would also acount for the regeneration ability). But I'm not a genetisist and I'm sure there are plenty of problems with this (like what happens to an old cell that now has diferent DNA with all the old organelles?) Yah, lots of problems.

[Silver]

I like the view that goes - a were is a human in natural form, a gestalt, then pure wolf form -the last two being a temporary form that always reverts back to human. It could go in the reverse direction if you're inclined to the view that wolfs can be were-humans.

It's a matter of 'evolution' if you will. The natural form is always the one reverted to. Unconcious, wounded, dead, the form that is the resting state. If that were Gestalt, the chance of being discovered and killed by the fanatics is much stronger. Natural selection. Wolves and humans aren't monsters. Gestalt are.

[WerewolfKeeper3]

My story has some twists in it, that deal with subject.
I wrote that that my werewolves have spells to prevent humans from discovering their identity if they are killed and revert to human. But i also say that my werewolves are not human, never have been human, and despise their human form.

I actually had an idea about this one while writing:
In my story, the werewolves have another world, that sits right next to ours in a different dimension. Please don't ask me to explain, i would probably confuse myself trying to. Anyway, in this world, when the spell is broken by the hunters they revert from a full from to, what i guess you would call a gestalt form.
So...
What if it depends on what world your in, for the form you revert to?
And, yes, i am asking help with my story.
You are most likely the ones to read it when i get it published, so i could use the help, if you don't mind.
(By the way, i like Red-eyes idea about the gestalt form being the original. This is a great place to gather ideas from. Although, with you, you'll probably only say in some passing statement "and yes, there are werewolves like in the movies, but we're not exactly like them." Or "what story did you read? Him? yeah, he's right, some werewolves do that." You never really have kept any ideas you've gotten the same have you?)
I don't steal other peoples visions of what they think something should or should not be. I wouldn't be a writer, let alone a person, if i did that.
(Whatever. )

[Shadow_in_the_Moonlight]

We usually want to think of the mid-form as one where the best of both worlds meet - strength and senses of a wolf, intelligence of a human.

It sorta caught on.

one question (sorry. i came in a bit late) would or wouldn't the were also have a humans conscience in the mid-form. and how might that effect the were's ability to hunt? or would their human intelligence compinsate for that by allowing them to come to the realization that hunting is necessary and no differant then, say , eating a hamburger?

[Shadow_in_the_Moonlight]

I for one prefer to think of the gestalt form as looking something like the ones in Christy Grandjeans work

http://www.goldenwolfen.com/index.php?f ... werewolves

notice how the back paws are in the form of a wolfs but the front are shaped almost intirely like a humans, but with the fur, pads, and claws showing its lupine roots. also the longer hair coing from the mane.

[WerewolfKeeper3]

Something tells me the werewolf would not have a problem. Wolves and Humans have similar instincts to each other. They'd probably compensate for each other in that form. I like Goldie's drawings too. I based some of my characters on the images i've seen on the web. I like hers especially.

[Shadow_in_the_Moonlight]

yeah me to. my personal favorite of her work is "I eat you!" very funny, very funny indeed.

[RedEye]

I for one prefer to think of the gestalt form as looking something like the ones in Christy Grandjeans work

http://www.goldenwolfen.com/index.php?f ... werewolves

notice how the back paws are in the form of a wolfs but the front are shaped almost intirely like a humans, but with the fur, pads, and claws showing its lupine roots. also the longer hair coing from the mane.

Using the same artist; I'd go more for SLC Howling, Crinos Kirelle, Trevor; and for realistic Werewolf-Human relations: Wolves of Somhain-
all in the same set of drawings.
In the latter, we see the Were's slowly involving themselves with their Human hosts-not as monsters, but as mannerly guests.