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If you STILL insist that immigration from mexico isn't a problem, read this..

http://www.englishfirst.org/elcenezo/el ... s81699.htm

I don't think legal immigration is the problem, but I agree that illegal immigration needs to be taken care of somehow... However, I don't think that finding all of the people who crossed over and building a wall is gonna help, since for one there are too many of them, and quite frankly rounding a bunch of human beings up to dump them back over the border seems a little screwed up.

However, none of that changes the fact that this is f*** ridiculous. If you live in a country, you learn the f*** language. I wouldn't go to France and force them to learn English to understand me. That's bullshit, and I'm sure they would call me out on that crap. I'm not saying they can't speak Spanish to each other, but I'm sure that there are people in that town that do not speak Spanish. Why should they now be forced to learn to accommodate those who chose by their own free will to come here? I'm not saying that learning a second language is bad - but this is an English speaking country, so it shouldn't be thrust on anybody. Damn it, this is making me agree with George Bush. George Bush, damn it!

This appears to be old news, though.

All you have to do is make sure that the cutrrent immigration bill doesn't pass and grant amnesty. Call your senators and elected officials, and let them know you're against this. Then, you caN HAVE A BILL PASSED THAT MAKES IT ILLEGAL TO HIRE A WELL...ILLEGAL...ANMD THAT THOSE LAWS ARE ACTUALLY ENFORCED.

oH btw fenceds actually DO work. Traffic has been reduced substantially where new fences have gone up...especially near san diego many years ago. They just need to keep building them and enforcing laws.

Oh, and you need to petition your elected officials to make English the national language so all governemnt documents are made in english only. that way, immigrants who come here HAVE to learn english if they want to get the benefits.

This isnt racism folks. it's issues. We can't afford to take care of every poor shmuck on the planet, and we CANNOT allow foregin languages to become common as official dialogue. Look at Quebec. now all the frenchies who speak...wel...french, want to SECEDE from canada. Its what happens when you let large groups of people into a country. they try and re-create it in the image of the s***hole they left, and that includes speaking their own language.

Broaden your horizons, stop being ignorant to other cultures. Texas is on the border to Mexico, what do you expect? Look at Canada for example, they speak both english and french and they aren't anywhere near France!

This thread stinks of pure human ignorance. No matter how you look at it or try to justify it.

ShadowFang wrote:Broaden your horizons, stop being ignorant to other cultures. Texas is on the border to Mexico, what do you expect? Look at Canada for example, they speak both english and french and they aren't anywhere near France!

This thread stinks of pure human ignorance. No matter how you look at it or try to justify it.

Just because an American town is near the Mexican border doesn't mean the official language should be spanish.

Seriously.

America is an English-speaking nation. Get with the program or learn to live with not knowing what people are saying.

I don't go to Mexico and expect their border-towns to speak English. That's, well, dumb.

ShadowFang wrote:Broaden your horizons, stop being ignorant to other cultures. Texas is on the border to Mexico, what do you expect? Look at Canada for example, they speak both english and french and they aren't anywhere near France!

This thread stinks of pure human ignorance. No matter how you look at it or try to justify it.

It really isn't us who are being ignorant of their culture, but they who are being ignorant of ours by trying to change ours into theirs. We have a reason at least for wanting them to accommodate us - we and our culture were here first (and yes, I know the American Indians were in turn here before us, but I don't approve of how the colonists pulled this same kind of s*** back then, either... though at least the Mexican immigrants aren't violent or colonial). They can keep their culture for themselves, but they should also adjust to our culture if they want to live with us. If I moved into your house, I wouldn't chuck out your CDs and replace them with my own and tell you to respect my taste in music if you got pissed about it. Besides, they went out of their way to leave their culture.

It isn't ignorant to want our culture protected, too.

If I relocated to another country I'd learn the lingua franca. That's the long and short of it. It's just a token of respect.

If they can make Spanish the official language of a city in Texas, then make German the official language of Philadelphia. My ancestors had to give up their language, you can too.

It's a problem. A few months ago I saw a news report on a high school in Los Angeles that took down the American flag outside, replaced it with the MEXICAN flag and flew the American flag upside-d0wn under it. Get this, some of the kids in the crowd wore bandannas over their faces so they couldn't be identified by the authorities. Aren't the little anarchists darling?

The flying upside-down wasn't what incensed me. That's a legitimate use and I do it myself (it means the country's in trouble and it's a call for help). What supremely pissed me off was the flying of the Mexican flag over the American flag in a sovereign state of the United States of America. The act was tantamount to insurrection and at the very least, the kids' social studies teacher should have been called onto the rug for it.

But, in California it's a problem. There are towns in the Central Valley where if you'd swear we were still under the Spanish Crown, nobody speaks English. I think it's gotten to the point in that state where the Hispanics have reached a demographic critical mass. I can see California tipping over and becoming a Spanish-first state before Texas. And in truth, that's what scares me about those bloody kids in L.A. flying the Mexican flag over the Stars 'n Stripes.

Edit: Hold it, wait a minute.
I just read the article. It mentions "Texas Governor George W. Bush."
This article is at least eight years old. What's the situation in El Cenizo now? Did they get their asses handed to them on a majolica platter?

Where my ancestors come from was overrun by foreigners who couldn't be bothered learning the language of the country they relocated to, so much so that I only know half a dozen words of my ancestral tongue (and those mainly from answers to trivia questions). So what did my ancestors do? Their descendants got over it and got on with their lives, speaking the foreign language instead of their own.

In that case the foreign language was English. But I have faith that your (Americans in general, or at least the smart ones - and everyone I've met here is smarter than a lot of the idiots I hear reports of in the news media) descendants will be able to adapt to Spanish just as well as those of the Andersons of the Shetland Islands, my own ancestors, managed to adapt to English.

We're not going to "adapt" to Spanish. i can speak some spanish, but dammit, I'm not going to be forced to communicate in it. Nor will I be called close-minded or ingnorant.

One thing that may interest you, is that if you look at the website of that city, its homepage features an American AND A MEXICAN FLAG!!! Well, what is it guys? You gonna be loyal to Mexico. or the United States?

Dude. We are a strong nation, only when we have a SINGLE, COMMON, UNITED language. Knowing another language is fine. But it breeds resentment among the people who you are trying to become, if you force a minority language/culture/way of life on another people. NO ONE cares what race you are if you can speak our language. You're a brother as far as i'm concerned. But once you start speaking in a language that most people cannot understand it makes them suspicious and worried...and they think "Are those guys talking about me?"

And Jesus Christ. At least all I'm doing is asking people to take political action. I'm not asking rednecks to go to the border and shoot every Mexican they find. Yeesh.

And seriously...do you really want our first world country to turn into a mini-mexico? Because that's what's happening! I'm sorry guys, but they can't fix their problems, so they bring them here and expect US to put up with a degrading infrastructure, higher crime, more drugs? And if anyone complains aboput it we're called racists? please.

There is something here and then there is something that is not. Being able to communicate is very important. Location however has nothing to do with how people behave and it does not define them. The people that live in a certain area can influence those around them. This is where the true confusion lies.

Also you can not say that because this place forced this place to change their language then that place can change that place too and you should get over it.

The true answer to the question is who is going to be the better person? Are you going to learn spanish in order to be compasionate to those who can not speak english or are you afraid it will destroy who you are or what your country defines. If you believe this will destroy our constitution then you are a fool if you think you can determine this if you can not even speak spanish. You better learn it if you think there is a threat of a takeover. A secondary language would not destroy what America stands for, but individual(ALL sides) people could.

Try and think about it from the perspective of simplicity. We're running along, doing well, with EVERYONE able to understand anyone else. Suddenly, we're faced with this problem of not being able to understand a HUGE group of foreigners. You really think it will be easy for anyone over the age of 20 to just up and learn another language because people who came here didn't respect our culture? For Pete's sake, every other culture that has come here before, has assimilated and learned the language! This group, however, is different. They're NOT ASSIMILATING.

And what's worse, it causes normally welcoming Americans to resent newcomers and become SUSPICIOUS of their motives. Sorry, but every time the United States has been attacked without provication, it's been from a foreign people who either don't like us, or want to change our culture to service theirs. BORG ANYONE???

And yes, as long as we're on that, i AM worried about losing our AMERICAN culture, and having it replaced by Mexican culture. We don;'t want that. YOU don't want that. It's all about machismo, and more often than not, backed up by violence. Just look at how they run their own country. Now you expect us to sit back and let them turn ours into a s***hole like that? It's already happening here. gangs, violence, tagging...its everywhere, and if you think for a moment, that this crap is being done by bored rich American kids, you are ignorant to the point where it's pointless to even try and explain what's going on. You don't even have to theorize here. Wherever you have these large illegal populations, a city and its infrastructure starts to decay. Crime goes up, business moves out. That area is left with only low-income, unskilled people whose only means of staying together is their original language ( from the lousy country they left )

I'm sorry. I won't sit back and let it happen. Because...

I LIKE having high wages.
I like not having super-overpopulation.
I like not seeing gangs of homeless children running through the streets.
I like being able to drink the water.
I like not having to pay a corrupt police officer to get my car back if it disappears.
I like the fact that we've more or less eradicated diseases that still plague Mexico today.
I like the fact that we have a certain amount of STANDARDS. I like having a CLEAN ENVIRONMENT ( have you seen Mexico City's air?? )
I WOULD LIKE...to be able to go to a soccer match, and not have to hear 80,000 mexican and latino fans, BOOING our national anthem.

I LIKE...not being a part of Mexico.

Quit trying to force others to be multicultural it breeds resentment and racism.

Also I have been told by many people that English is a hard language to learn. I have also heard that spanish is an easier language to learn than it would be to learn english for the first time.

It is wrong to force someone to do something they do not want to do. The thing you can not allow is a law to be passed forcing people to learn spanish. This goes into that jagged slope I occasionaly speak of. If such a thing were to occur you should not procrastinate by saying this is no big deal we will react when it is a big deal. By then it might be too late.

If people started getting arrested for not speaking spanish, it would probably be a big deal to many people. This should also be a big deal to immigrants and foreigners as well, the individuals that care about other people.
________________

It is so easy to go with the flow...
The flow gets disrupted.
Fighting occurs.
Fighting stops.
It is so easy to go with the flow...

Repeats
Repeats
Repeats
Repeats

Pollution
Genocide
Nuclear Winter
The world is over.

I don't see how its so damn difficult to learn. And learning a language because it is "easy" isn't a good reason to learn. just as it is for ANYTHING in this world. The harder something is, the more rewarding it is when you accomplish that goal.

MATT you probably SHOULD learn spanish or befriend somone who is bilingual and form a bond of trust. Then find out what is what on both sides. These fears are plausible if America becomes overpopulated. All in all it is the people who are already here who would pollute the air worse (if anyone). What would cause this pollution? Is the real antagonist what you think it is?

Do not divide people based on what they look like, where they come from, what language they speak, etc... If you can not determine which side a person is on find someone who can.

Learning spanish could just as easily be the solution.
Forcing people to, would not.

Try compasion and talking with people before using force. It would be EXTREMELY racist to think that all immigrants who enter america start commiting MAJOR (name calling not included, and even then...) acts of cruelty towards other people. Find the good people that come in and work with them to find a positive solution.

MattSullivan wrote:I don't see how its so damn difficult to learn. And learning a language because it is "easy" isn't a good reason to learn. just as it is for ANYTHING in this world. The harder something is, the more rewarding it is when you accomplish that goal.

I am guessing you do not want to learn Spanish.
I am guessing you do not want to be commpasionate.
If you are not willing to compromise then you may never achieve anything remotely close to your goal.

So you refuse to speak spanish and then the sum of all your fears occur. I am not saying you should be forced to speak spanish, I am saying you should choose to. Politicians and Coorporations may sooner learn spanish than spend billions of dollars on a war. So people scream out in vain at what is right and just.

Personaly, I would rather achieve something than nothing.

However, I have no reason to believe that there is a threat of a takeover. Give me a really good one, and maybe I will put my money where my mouth is.

(((My PS3 will not allow me to type anything else in the post above, the post above.)))

Is there or has a large group of people immigrated into America who are interseted in oppressing people based on race? Interested in commiting genocide even if only on a small level? A group of people who truly truly want to take things away from others and do not care who they hurt in order to do so?

If so race is not the issue. Morality is the issue. Do not complain about immigrants complain about individuals who are hurting other people.

If nothing works when you take a moral approach then maybe closeing off the borders could become justified. But you would have to allow EVERYONE to try and solve the problem. In order to do this SOMEONE would have to learn spanish.

Also, you say crime has risen. What is this in proportion to the population?

Now the solution would become...

I want everyone to know that I appreciate sympathy for "the devil"...
Or being able to forgive those who have done wrong.

The solution would be to first clean up and then strengthen the police force. Make morality (use phsycoanalysis) a requirement to become a member of law enforcement.

MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!!! ALWAYS be willing to compromise with bad people if it is the only or the best way to make the world a better place. It would be foolish to do nothing simply because you would have to give something to a bad person. Granted you would have to take into consideration what said individial would or could do with it.

I believe that there are many coorporations who could be happy without having to cross the line. But still certain people in some of them could have done bad things in the past, present, and/or the future. Revive the morality in the powerful people who have it in them and get them on our side to weed out the powerful people who are unstable. The ones who would blow this world up to pieces if they do not get what they want. Prove certain individuals are unstable and maybe even some of the wicked will help.

As long as the unstable are left to abuse their power in ways that even disrupt a lot of the wicked, a solution to this problem will be hindered. Is it not the job of good to keep evil in check?

No matter which side of the immigrant debate you are on you should want to achieve something instead of nothing. Matt do you truly believe that the American culture is at risk of being destroyed? If you believe these bad things can and will happen then no matter how much you disagree with learning spanish, you MUST deciede which ideals are more important, not learning spanish or stopping the COMPLETE destruction of America's culture. Should everyone in a town be forced to speak spanish, NO. Should people from other towns force that town not to speak spanish, NO. Should YOU learn spanish, maybe. Maybe you should learn Spanish so that other people who think like you do will not have to, or are you afraid that if you do learn it, you will lose your ideals?

It wouldn't be destroyed, but it has the potential to go in a very bad direction. I'm not talking just about pollution, though I agree, the pollution in Mexico City is HORRIBLE...haven't been there myself but I have a friend that lives there and this was by his own admission. He told me that you can't hear birdsong because there are no songbirds there, they die from it.

This is partly due to its locus, like San Jose CA used to be incredibly polluted. There are laws in place here in the States that would keep our air quality from going the way of Mexico City.

However...this country has *some* corruption now, but do we really want it to get so corrupted that in order to get anything official done, you have to pass C-notes around like business cards?
Do we want to live like prey animals lest we get in the crossfire in a gangland shooting? There's gang activity in every town and city in California, one of the reasons I left. And it's starting to get a foothold here because nobody did anything about stopping it there.

You asked about rising crime. There was a report recently that said that while property crime is down, violent crime is on the upswing for the first time in thirty years. Less burglary, more robbery.

One thing I'd like to bring up...your point of always be willing to compromise with "the bad guys" just made me sick. That's like telling a woman who's been beaten to a pulp by her father or husband that she shouldn't have pissed him off.

Gee cumulus. let me guess. You're Mexican? ( and btw, i already wrote that i know a great deal of spanish )

"You said: MOST IMPORTANTLY!!!!! ALWAYS be willing to compromise with bad people if it is the only or the best way to make the world a better place."

Compromise? COMPROMISE? Screw that man. These people need to apply by OUR laws, and OUR values.

Matt..seriously..chill out..all of you need to..We are open to our opinions..Sorry Matt not ur words just because you insist aren't always facts to everyone else..Just keep in mind that their may be some folks on here who are indeed mexican..you can't just go around insulting them..Mexicans are human too an need jobs to support their families an to be able to have a place to call home like the lot of us..Think about all that before you post this kinda of nonsense again..You have attacked Mexicans before, because of YOUR beliefs. At ur age you should know better..We're adults here so I'm just telling you how it is..Chill Out

Now guys, don't start throwing the R-word around ( racist ) I'm attacking illegals in general. The main thrust of the problem comes THROUGH mexico.

Do not forget. I wrote a movie with a mexican as the main character. It has its own freakin forum here. I'm just talking about a political issue.

*sigh* No name calling please guys. Political threads always end in flame wars.

Well, is the problem that some Mexican immigrants CAN'T learn English? Or is it really that they WON'T learn English? If it's the former, then I'm all for having more ESL classes or whatever else is needed and can be reasonably provided to assist them in learning the language,which CAN be tricky, we have plenty of words that are spelled alike, or sound alike, and we're up to our eyeballs in slang terms that can confuse the heck outta someone. However, if it's the latter....THAT'S what I have a problem with. If I went to Germany, I'd try to learn at least some German, if I went to Japan, I'd try to learn Japanese, if I went to England, I'd learn...uh....nevermind. I don't know exactly how true it is, but I've even heard that some (not all, but some) Mexican immigrants here CAN speak English, but they refuse to, either because they want to keep their culture, OR because (again, this is just heresay, I'm not claiming it's true), they want to be able to talk about us to our face without us understanding it. Hopefully, that's just a stupid rumor. I'd hate to believe that they really want to be able to insult us openly and do so because they can be reasonably sure that all of us have no idea what they're saying. Anyway, if they WANT to learn English and for whatever reason aren't able to...that's one thing. But if they flat out REFUSE to...that's where I would take offense.