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I mean, there is no precedent for the non-evil, non-cursed werewolf in mythology. The good ones are usually under some curse, so where did the idea of the non-cursed, non-evil werewolf come from?

I do not have the answer to where the idea came from.

I had thought about non-evil, self -aware, in control of their own mind werewolves for a few years then found out quite a few other people liked the same once I had the internet.

Xiroteus wrote:I do not have the answer to where the idea came from.

I had thought about non-evil, self -aware, in control of their own mind werewolves for a few years then found out quite a few other people liked the same once I had the internet.

same here.


and plus, I have a feeling the non-evil werewolves have been around longer then your giving them credit for.

it's just a lot of people who watch movies like werewolves to be evil.


and plus with the legends a lot of people way back when thought a lot of things were evil. so I guess it went on from there.

Xiroteus wrote:I do not have the answer to where the idea came from.

I had thought about non-evil, self -aware, in control of their own mind werewolves for a few years then found out quite a few other people liked the same once I had the internet.

NO lidding! I had the same idea!

Well, the native americans had non-evil shapeshifters, so that idea is very old. In Europe, however, since wolves were seen as mindless predators who ate the livestock, they were always evil. Although the Native Americans were here first, the current America has been influenced more heavily by Europe, so that's where our culture got the evil werewolf. The concept of a good werewolf just recently resurfaced, I think from novels and the internet. There's my two bits.

Yeah, but who do you think did it first?

*nagowteena* wrote: and plus with the legends a lot of people way back when thought a lot of things were evil. so I guess it went on from there.

I agree with that. I suppose it's all just passed around from person to person, their thoughts and ideas. People fear the unknown, so when ever they come across something like that frightens them, they're obviously going to tell all the scary parts they encountered; and keep a closeminded view of what happened. I hightly doubt that there would be truely evil Werewolves, but you really never know. I just think hoomans in general are quick to judge others without getting to know them.

It is pretty basic really.
If evil exists then so can good.

cumulusprotagonist wrote:It is pretty basic really.
If evil exists then so can good.

BINGO!!!


and now it all depends who is on what side.

if there is good, there is evil.

if there is evil, there is good.

cumulusprotagonist wrote:It is pretty basic really.
If evil exists then so can good.

Yes, there is good, and there is evil, but there are also grey areas (I believe so, at least).

Kelpten wrote:In Europe, however, since wolves were seen as mindless predators who ate the livestock, they were always evil.

In European mythology werewolves were not always evil. They had accounts predating the 1600's of werewolves who were good-natured.

Examples:

A werewolf who saved a band of travelers

A werewolf Bishop

Thiess and his comrades, who battled witches for the safety of their village.

Ashkin-Tyr wrote:

Kelpten wrote:In Europe, however, since wolves were seen as mindless predators who ate the livestock, they were always evil.

In European mythology werewolves were not always evil. They had accounts predating the 1600's of werewolves who were good-natured.

Examples:

A werewolf who saved a band of travelers

A werewolf Bishop

Thiess and his comrades, who battled witches for the safety of their village.

YEah, but I think those first two were curses, and the third one was more of an astral-projection in animal form type thing.

theMoonlite wrote:

cumulusprotagonist wrote:It is pretty basic really.
If evil exists then so can good.

Yes, there is good, and there is evil, but there are also grey areas (I believe so, at least).

If evil exists then so can good. If evil and good both exist then so can everything in between. If this creates a line going from good to evil then the grey areas could exist outside of the line. Maybe there are two good and evil lines. One line is for external good and evil and the other is for internal good and evil. The gray areas are not involved in how it is basic to think of the possibility of a good and moral werewolf.

But since you went and started it.

Let us say the right of a line is heading towards good and the left is heading towards evil. Let us say this is external. The internal line has good heading up and evil heading south. Now we have a graph. The Cursed werewolf type could be in the second quadrant. That is they could be good internally but evil externally. A werewolf just like any other person could be anywhere on the graph depending upon the individual. They could even be outside of the graph off in inconceivable territory. Inconceivable territory to some people can exist on the graph, but inconceivable territory to most people is what lies outside of it.

If someone is externally evil that does not mean they are truly evil it means they are perceived to be evil by society. Only if the individual is internally evil are they truly evil. I am unsure how many people will understand this but there really is no way for someone to know who is and is not truly evil, regardless of what they have done. You never know everything that leads up to an externally evil act or everything surrounding it.

Dreamer wrote:YEah, but I think those first two were curses, and the third one was more of an astral-projection in animal form type thing.

Well, I was responding to a previous post about Europe's werewolves, not necessarily if they were cursed or not. I apologize for deviating from your topic.

In the account of Thiess, there was no mention of astral projection, but a physical transformation. If you are curious to read up on Thiess, I made a thread about it several months ago, so its around midway through this forum.

Actually, non-evil werewolves probably came first. In the old days of hunter-gatherer humanity, shapeshifting rites were likely performed before hunts, and wolves were likely an animal of choice. Hunters would don skins and envision becoming wolves to be better hunters. And, they fed the tribe. Lycanthropy may have been a mainstream profession some 20,000 years ago.

European thinking and its obsession with "good and evil" popularized evil werewolves, though pre-Medieval legends such as King Lycaon show that it didn't start in the Middle Ages. The idea of reinventing werewolves today as something other than monsters, however, probably dates to the eighties.

Great info Scott! But what do you think was the first story back then that thought of werewolves like that?

*nagowteena* wrote: and plus, I have a feeling the non-evil werewolves have been around longer then your giving them credit for.

Chances are this is true, in many cultures and folklore etc mythical animals such as dragons, werewolves and such creatures were "good" or symbolic of good things however now most people believe that such creature were and still are "evil" this is mainly down to Christianity (no offense). When the church discovered that people idolised beings other than god the demonised these poor creatures and associated them with the devil in order to discourage people and this has lead to the mainstream belief that werewolves and other creatures are evil.

I'll try not to repeat what others said about good and evil...They are true. Yet I'm sure that most of the people feared all things that they couldn't control in that time, or had no reasonable explanation for it.They probably didn't care much if a werewolf was good or evil...It could have saved 100 lives. It was still considered something related to evil no matter what.( I guess, I can say that in that time the people were influenced ). If wolves were considered the servants of the evil, then I don't want to know what were werewolves considered.
Anyway...Even today! It's not really accepted,that just as there are evil werewolves , there are good ones. The two ( good&evil) cannot be separated really.Only balanced!
At least now we can see some changes that people try not to think of it as something negative.

The first story that took that line? Good Were's as well as Evil Were's?
Dunno. There are references in the Tain Bo Cualainge (Tahn-Boe-Coolnyeah) of a tribe or Clann of Irish Werewolves that fought beside Chucullan (the hero of the story) and that dates to the third or fourth century CE.
Regrettably, all the males (Warriors) were killed...

That's the earliest reference of Werewolf Hero-types I know of.

Fine-I'm late to this discussion. Here's what I say...


In the Western Hemisphere, people changing into animals was often
acceptable and fine, not necessarily evil, nor good (depends on the person.)


In the Eastern Hemisphere, where the animal was respected, the idea of
changing into one would be admirable. So, there were people who were fine
with wanting to become the wolf or the bear (Vikings and so on).

As for cultures like the Ainu in Asia, the aborigines in Australia, they lack
web access, so I can GUESS what they agree with. If I were to GUESS, I'd say
the same is true for them-of animals that are predators in their areas.
(In South America, there were no wereWOLVES, for example, since there
were no WOLVES.)

Jacob Thiess in Livonia was a considerable exception, since he lived a LOT
later into "modern civilization" than the other examples,
and because he was a devout, fanatical Christian.
When he was told to recant, and agree with the usual rap of
"I made a deal with Satan", he testified to being a more devout Christian
than his accusers.
I've seen the following attributed to him:
"I'm as Christian as any of you!"

I do know he refused services from a priest, since he considered himself
more devout than any priest. Since he said he and his were
"the dogs of God" and fought for the harvest, one can see why he concluded
that. (Whether or not it was true, it was consistent.)

From Sabine Baring-Gould's 'The Book of Were-wolves':

Olaus relates also in c. xlvii. the story of a certain nobleman who was travelling through a large forest with some peasants in his retinue who dabbled in the black art. They found no house where they could lodge for the night, and were well-nigh famished. Then one of the peasants offered, if all the rest would hold their tongues as to what he should do, that he would bring them a lamb from a distant flock.

He thereupon retired into the depths of the forest and changed his form into that of a wolf, fell upon the flock, and brought a lamb to his companions in his mouth. They received it with gratitude. Then he retired once more into the thicket, and transformed himself back again into his human shape.

[1. OLAUS MAGNUS: Historia de Vent. Septent. Basil. 15, lib. xviii. cap. 45.]

Ashkin-Tyr wrote:

Kelpten wrote:In Europe, however, since wolves were seen as mindless predators who ate the livestock, they were always evil.

In European mythology werewolves were not always evil. They had accounts predating the 1600's of werewolves who were good-natured.

Examples:

A werewolf who saved a band of travelers

A werewolf Bishop

Can you give me the links to those two stories, seeing as I can't find them on the internet?

Also, just as a quick note, my werewolves were more like the wolfman in design (Actually more like catboys with more fur and claws) before I discovered that others had similar ideas to me (Alpha Luna was my first skirmish with the idea)

Dreamer wrote:Can you give me the links to those two stories, seeing as I can't find them on the internet?

I found those two particular stories/accounts in a couple of non-fiction books at my school library. One book, I believe, was called "Werewolves" by Daniel Cohen. The other was "Werewolves and Other Mythological Creatures" (or titled something very similar). I discovered them while I was writing a research paper for my English class a couple years back when I was in high school.

If you go to a public or school library and find some books on werewolves, I'm sure you'd be able to find the accounts.

Well maybe the first werewolves were cursed and evil. But some time later they leanered to beat the curse or suppress it

I can't remember where I found it right off-hand, but I recently read a reference to a unique Medieval werewolf trial wherein the accused party claimed that she was indeed a physical werewolf and that werewolves were actually warriors of God who helped the angels battle the forces of Satan. Interesting, because I think that's the only Christian-based good werewolf I've ever heard of. I'll see if I can remember where I found that later.

Also, Redwolf, what is this Irish epic you've mentioned a few times, the one about Chucullan? And where did you find it? I can't find it anywhere and I'm always looking for new Old English, Germanic, or Celtic texts.