So, I just watched 'Sicko' and was wondering about certain parts of it. I'm not going to pretend I have a lot of knowledge on the subject. So I thought some of you may know more about it.
Is health insurance really that good in all those other countries? (England, Canada, France, Cuba, ect) Or did Moore leave out all the negative aspects of it? It seems too good to be true. (Also, free collage education in England!?)
Watching that movie got me very depressed. Sad to see what happens to all these people. It sucks that we(Americans) have to live in a country with such a s***, greedy government and big corporations. Enough to make you want to move out. ...Or violently rebel
Do you think America will ever have free, universal health care?
Nope, health insurance is always controlled the US Government, those bastards.
But, we can make our own insurance by making and growing natural medicine. Rather than crappy artificial medicine created by Multi-billion medical companies shared by private and sub-subsidiary small businesses.
Don't give them money by buying, as they are trying to create more medicine with new emerging diseases created by the World's Government for population-control.
SOCIALIZED MEDICAL CARE IS BAD!!!!! It standardizes everything and makes it impossible for the drug companies to make a prophet
and so, you don't hear about all these great medical advances coming from the UK or Canada do you? of course not, not unless the opperation or what not is considered elective *not needed to stay alive* and on top of that they get to tell you what is life saving, so if you need a surgery to keep your leg, they won't give it to you because it is elective and you don't need your leg to live. OH and that hospital in Cuba, I have a Cuban friend, and he said he lived in Havanna and knows where that hospital is, it's only for the Elite. Michael Moore is a one sided SOB, and notice how he usually goes up to companies or what not in his documentaries (one of his few redeeming factors) He didn't go up to the insurance companies here. The reporter John Stossel asked Michael Moore about these things here
and granted John Stossel is a little one sided too, but atleast his admits that the healthcare system is not completely bad nore perfect, and that there were more benifits to keeping its basic layout. NOT MAKING OUR ALREADY ALMOST BANKRUPT NATION PAY FOR EVERYONE'S MEDICAL CARE! ......stupid Bush and his stupid fiscal policies the man should be slapped with a frying pan
And I know there are some who like Michael Moore, but he is a one sided punk who doesn't give you the whole story, instead watch a good documentary full of just facts and not stupid made up statistics, and another thing YOU CAN'T TRUST STATISTICS, it's too easy to make them up. You want facts and numbers not percents
The US healthcare system has it bugs and does need revamping for people who can't afford health insurance, but we should not socialize it!
"Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere et cul illi pueri dicerent 'Sibylla Ti cupisne' respondebat illa 'Cupio mortere'."
nationalizing health care can't work in the US period! in Europe they have about 20-50 million people in there country, probable more
in the USA you have over 300 million people
you can't take health care made for medium or small nations and apply it to the 2nd most populous nation in the world it doesn't work
(for every afro avatar, a funky man loses his hair, please, think of undercover brother)
No, socialized health care isn't going to work in America. BUT...
Our government has spent close to a TRILLION dollars on this war in Iraq. For that much, they could EASILY pay out a stipend to provide health "discounts" to every legal American, to take some of the cost off. At the very least, we'd be getting SOMETHING for our taxes, instead of nothing from this phony "war".
MattSullivan wrote:No, socialized health care isn't going to work in America. BUT...
Our government has spent close to a TRILLION dollars on this war in Iraq. For that much, they could EASILY pay out a stipend to provide health "discounts" to every legal American, to take some of the cost off. At the very least, we'd be getting SOMETHING for our taxes, instead of nothing from this phony "war".
pretty much
(for every afro avatar, a funky man loses his hair, please, think of undercover brother)
Lukas wrote:nationalizing health care can't work in the US period! in Europe they have about 20-50 million people in there country, probable more
in the USA you have over 300 million people
you can't take health care made for medium or small nations and apply it to the 2nd most populous nation in the world it doesn't work
side note second most populous country is india....
"Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere et cul illi pueri dicerent 'Sibylla Ti cupisne' respondebat illa 'Cupio mortere'."
....try earlier they have 1 billion people now..... so it's gotta have been at least a century old
"Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere et cul illi pueri dicerent 'Sibylla Ti cupisne' respondebat illa 'Cupio mortere'."
I am terrified of socialized Health Insurance because, after being in Canada, I know why it is not superior. Many Canadian's I talked to on my drive from Alaska back to New York, envied our hospitals and capitalizing world since, well, money means progress. There is no drive for health care advances or trying to one-up other people. The Canadian's are just finding this out.
The great biproduct of our society is that we do operate on some of the latest technology because ye who has the best can profit. And, in health care, profit greatly if you work under capitalistic means.
In places like Canada there is no health-care growth and little opportunity to manifest a fight for a flat-lining system.
Besides, once we all see the price increase in taxes for health care (because, ultimately, working people will pay for the non-working peoples and it will be on the backs of workers to afford health care for everyone) there will be an outcry. I mean - think now, what three things do we suffer for in just property tax? Education, education, education!
And I am glad high schools are getting new, sponge track to bounce on (wait, how many million is it going to cost?)... But the people who pay taxes will pay.
Same goes for health insurance. Be prepared for the realization that, as my favorite saying goes, the road to hell is paved with good intentions...
The thing is though, that in nations other than the US that have national health care (where a basic level of care is provided), the populous tends to be healthier, and they are beginning to see longer expected lifespans than that of Americans. I've been treated in American and German facilities (and can provide some comparison).
The thing is that national health care provides a basic level of medical care to everyone. In the US, there are millions with health insurance. But, health insurance is their biggest monthly bill (in WI, where I used to live, healthy, non-smoking, no-medical-risks-at-all families were paying $600-$800 PER MONTH for two adults and two children). This was only sometimes overshadowed by a mortgage on a house. Not included are the millions of Americans who are uninsured. Best for them to not get sick or injured (which isn't something you can completely control).
I still think that the health care system here is ridiculous
If we are the richest country in the world, you think we would be able to do a LOT better. Something has to change.
I agree with Matt that tax payers money would be a hell of a lot more useful with issues like this then the pointless war Bush wants to fight.
Even if you dont like Moore, at least he does brings up some good points for the public to know about.
Silverclaw wrote:I still think that the health care system here is ridiculous
If we are the richest country in the world, you think we would be able to do a LOT better. Something has to change.
I agree with Matt that tax payers money would be a hell of a lot more useful with issues like this then the pointless war Bush wants to fight.
Even if you dont like Moore, at least he does brings up some good points for the public to know about.
....like what.....all his points are one sided and are easily argued against even with the most rudementary knowledge of healthcare
"Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere et cul illi pueri dicerent 'Sibylla Ti cupisne' respondebat illa 'Cupio mortere'."
I have a feeling that what might be meant by Silverclaw's comment is that Moore gets more of the public thinking about healthcare, regardless of how factual his statements really are.
....moore only does documentaries on things that the public is already interested in.... IE 9/11 Bowling for Colombine, and now Healthcare this Election's major issue
"Nam Sibyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla pendere et cul illi pueri dicerent 'Sibylla Ti cupisne' respondebat illa 'Cupio mortere'."
Mixed feelings about socialized medicine in America, but at least it would level the playing field. Right now we have both the best and the worst health care system in the world. There's no point having artificial hearts and advanced vascular neurosurgery to repair ruptured brain aneurysms to the person who can't have the procedures. I meet people in the ER all the time who are there because we're the only health care providers who won't turn them away. They can't afford basic health care, and $300 a month drugs are out of the question. Yet they pay taxes and therefore fund Medicaid, a welfare system that provides health care services to others. Even worse, I see a lot of people who abuse the Medicaid system--people who are able-bodied but claiming disability (commonly anxiety problems when they evidence lack of coping skills with life) and people on Medicaid going to the ER to get same-day service for kids with runny noses, because they don't want to wait a few days to see a primary care doctor. Remember, the person dying from cancer because he can't afford chemotherapy, but is working full time, is footing the bill for the kids' upper respiratory infections.
A breaking point will happen, when this absurdity reaches public attention and outcry. But, until then, one of the biggest examples of government waste and needless suffering resulting from it is happening quietly all around us over here.
Another example: the U.S. government spends billions trying to combat illegal drug trade, even going as far as invading countries in South America from time to time, destroying crops and peoples' livelihoods. Meanwhile, it foots the bill for countless prescriptions for Vicodin, Soma, and Xanax. While some people genuinely need medicines to control panic attacks and serious mental illnesses, Xanax is not one of the better choices of drugs by which to do it. Same with Soma and back pain. Vicodin is a great drug for legitimate pain; in the ER setting, I prescribe it fairly commonly for problems like broken bones. But, I have seen people who all but openly admit prescription drug abuse, and we taxpayers are footing the bill.
Taking a Gestalt approach, since it's the "in" thing...
That's one of the difficulties: we have a fragmented healthcare system. It's literally every person for themselves, like leaving a theatre when the show's over.
Moore convienently ignores the fact that the US is the single most prolific producer of new and useful medicines in the world, and it's all fueled by a free market economy: ie; Capitalism.
Capitalism has its downsides, as well as its upsides; just like everything else. The Pharma. companies don't do this for fun: it's to make money, and lots of it. That is the driving force that brings us medicines to treat what was previously untreatable: money.
It also drives the improvements in therapy (Medical care and related), so people get better and live longer and more productive lives, so they, the people, can make more money as well. Its a cycle.
Also, there are research programs that often uncover not merely the object of their research, but a lot of connected things as well, all of which become medical knowledge, and thus beneficial to all.
And, Scott; a lot of times a doctor will prescribe what he/she knows, rather what is newer and better (maybe). It's a habit, human nature.
What is new, and good, is the energy put into natural health; exercise, self-upkeep, and good diet. That will save more lives than just about anything else: healthy people just don't get sick!
Last edited by RedEye on Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
RedEye: The Wulf and writer who might really be a Kitsune...
Do any of you political philossophers know of a good way to combine the "Healthcare for all" benefits of socialized medicine, with the innovation of our capitalist system?
Preventative medicine can only do so much. I was the picture of health when my appendix went crazy and had to be surgically removed. I STILL owe major cash to the hospital, because i was between jobs and had no insurance.
Okay, many of you know I had cancer. When I was diagnosed, I didn't have health insurance. I got grandfathered into Blue Cross on my parents' policy while I lived in California and since I was a kid, they had to cover me. They couldn't refuse because I was overweight or had shingles or whatever. But once I moved out of California, I lost my insurance and nobody in Oregon would cover me, because my BMI was over their limit (something unrealistic like 20) and because I'd been diagnosed with colitis.
I don't have to tell you what a panic I was in, facing advanced cancer with NO way to pay for treatment. I weary Heaven with thanks for the hospital I was referred to, they did the surgery and kept me for four days and forgave the whole bill. Then the cancer centre which also has a program for indigents. The chemo and radiation hit me like a cathedral dropped from 100 feet up so I couldn't work.
After the cancer treatment was over, I was accepted to the state high-risk medical insurance pool. It's expensive, it's about $300 a month, but I know that I get my money's worth with just one doctor visit a month. Further afflicted with bursitis, cataracts, detached retina and osteoarthritis, it's a slam dunk that I get back my premium every time, and then some.
I got lucky. Unspeakably lucky. Not every state has a high-risk insurance pool but I understand Governor Schwarzenegger has mandated that everyone in California have health insurance. Thumbs up on that.
Cover everyone with a health plan. Everyone. <b>EVERYONE. </b> As a first priority. Give the people healthy bodies and minds and they can take it anywhere from there. Medical care isn't a commodity, it's basic infrastructure. Who's gonna fire your guns, build your roads and bridges, write your newspapers and books, pay your taxes, cook your food, go to your colleges, build your trains and cars, dig your canals, pick your oranges and grapes, play music, if everyone's sick and dying? People first, things second.
As for the argument that medical science wouldn't make a PROFIT...maybe not, but if the medical industry was backed with the power of millions of Americans paying taxes...that's a pretty reliable source of income. You treat medicine like it's a commodity to be traded, bought and sold on Wall Street, you're subject to Wall Street's fluctuations. Tax revenue doesn't change: it's always there. As a business person, which would you choose? The paycheck that gets bigger and bigger until one day it collapses and leaves you with the choice of a) Roof over your head or B) Full stomach, PICK ONE — or the paycheck that...well, only just covers rent, utilities, fuel and food, but always comes?
...Or violently rebel 
