Pack Problems?

Silverclaw · Post by **Silverclaw** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:49 am

Was just reading some different threads and noticed that a lot of people think this site is going downhill. I was just wondering what do you think the problem(s) are? And what would you suggest to do to fix said problem(s)?
I didnt make this thread for flame-wars, name-calling or whatever. Just so issues could maybe(hopefully) get resolved.

MattSullivan · Post by **MattSullivan** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:54 am

I find there are intolerant people here. That is, "If you have an opinion other than ours, you're a troublemakes or a hate-monger, and we will put words in your mouth" kind of intolerant

Kaebora · Post by **Kaebora** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:50 am

I think it's time to go ahead and hijack your thread for a moment. Silverclaw and Matt have a good point. There are people here who have brutally honest opinions that others may have strong opposing thoughts about. This isn't the root cause of flaming and such though. I feel that it may be due to the personal feelings people harbor towards certain individuals. Hate and love. Some people here have explosive personalities, and most people are afraid to speak up about it due to the impending danger of being excluded from the little click of friends that associate themselves with the said person. In addition to this, anyone with the truely thought provoking opinions are bashed ruthlessly and seen as attacking people, when they themselves are being attacked. This is a present danger in every society. Unavoidable, but possible to lessen to some degree.

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As I can tell, I see many opinions here that are not abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening or sexually-oriented, but do have a strong counter-point to the rest of the concensus. Those posts get slandered ruthlessly instead of discussed calmly. This adds to the problem.

A good guideline to follow? Do NOT post something that you KNOW will cause serious negetive feedback. If you poke the wasp nest... you're inevitablly going to get stug. Just... don't... do it.

There have also been personal attacks against Moderators and Admins too. Nobody had better force me into a corner of pointing fingers here, because I'm not the type that's afraid to call someone out if pushed to do so. I'm not a push-over admin, and I WILL call out bad behavior when I see it. If you dislike me for doing my job, its probobly because you're the one I'm calling out for bad behavior. We've been VERY leniant about the rules, and have given countless warnings to repeat offenders without any banning or deletions. For the most part, management here has just been regular members with a toolbar. We aren't flaunting power, we are enforcing the rules. If you don't agree with the rules, you do not belong in this forum. Period.

If I had it my way though, I'd remove this admin tag and just keep the responsibilities. Tired of people looking at the title and thinking im laying down some official law when I'm making suggestions. Very disheartening.

Ok. Rant over. Discuss.... calmly.

Kelpten · Post by **Kelpten** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:30 pm

Well, the purpose of this site was to discuss what the people wanted of the werewolf in general, and after a few years we've kind of gone over most of the topics. At this point it's difficult to find new things to discuss. That's one of the problems I'm seeing anyways.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:18 pm

I would say that the Pack has slowed down, yes. We don't have nearly as many active and involved discussions and have come to consensuses over a lot of the issues we had earlier.

I would not, however, say that the Pack is going downhill. Some of our members have, yes, but the Pack won't go down with them unless we let it. To date, only two members have denounced the Pack (well, technically only one since Vuldari just said he needed a break). We have over thirteen hundred registered users and counting, so I'd say the Pack is still holding up nicely.

I guess it's like we're starting to feel like we've said all that really, really needs to be said, and now a lot of us are just waiting to see Freeborn, the result of all our discussions. The "What Should A Werewolf Be?" forum isn't the most active part of the Pack board anymore, but with only one or two exceptions, we're still the same Pack we were before, aren't we?

Kaebora · Post by **Kaebora** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:27 pm

Terastas wrote:To date, only two members have denounced the Pack (well, technically only one since Vuldari just said he needed a break). We have over thirteen hundred registered users and counting, so I'd say the Pack is still holding up nicely.

Since I arrived here, I can count a couple dozen that left without saying anything. Five of which I talked to later on, finding out that they had some beef with one or more members. I'm not saying any names though.

The problem of unwanted drama has been present since the beginnings of this forum. It only grew with the number of joining members. We aren't nearly as bad as places like Gamespot or Catgirlz.com, where drama is world famous. For that I'm greatful, but we have the ability to improve ourselves with internet ettiquete, so please, everyone make that effort to NOT START OR PARTICIPATE in negetive arguments.

It's all about the love.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:19 pm

Well, OK, only one or two that announced they were leaving. People come and go all the time based on their interests; that's true of any Internet community.

Drama is unavoidable too. In fact, when people complain that the Pack is "going downhill," I consider that to be drama too. It's unavoidable so you can't fault anyone that creates any, and, well, there's no point policing the ones that cause excessive drama since they always end up leaving in fits of rage anyway.

Scott Gardener · Post by **Scott Gardener** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:12 pm

It's been a turbulent year, but I wouldn't say it went downhill, at least not nearly as much as the statement suggests. There was a certain novelty factor in our early days, but compared to most boards that have aged, we haven't degenerated nearly as much as most. Most boards either fizzle in traffic or break down in quality so much that the intellectuals lose interest, leaving only the combative flamers. We have not had either problem, though we've worried about the latter happening.

We were down almost two weeks, and yet we're back, and we don't appear to have lost any of the regular members over the down time. You know a forum is doing pretty well when its members faithfully check in every day or two to see if it's back for two solid weeks, given how large the Internet is and how many other forums are out there to fill any given interest niche. But, two weeks of down time, and we're still back here, celebrating our return.

We've worried about conflicts and flame wars, and we do have some heated altercations here and there. But, compared to a lot of forums out there, it's surprisingly well-contained. People who exchange heated disputes on one thread often will share posts the next without prejudice. The ability of most of our members to "let it go" is quite admirable.

We've changed our lead lineup a few times since November 2004, with frequent posters slowing down and newcomers taking charge here and there. That alters some of the personality and flavor of the board, but I'd have to say that overall, those of you who post frequently today have done a good job "keeping the faith." I do agree that the number of threads requiring a lock-down has increased somewhat. But, growing pains are to be expected. If you look back around early 2006 or so, I believe many of us were anticipating this change over time, worried about what would happen. While there's no guarantee the site won't eventually go downhill, I don't feel it has.

I do think it's become big enough that it's spawned sub-communities--that is, some of us feel closer to some members than others. That is also to be expected when you get really large, which is why the idea of regional chapters, frequently bandied about and mentioned on our index title page, is gradually making more sense. Geography can inadvertently promote subdivisions, as there is a "mere exposure effect" among people, in which people tend to be drawn more in friendship towards people they have met in person. Even so, I feel I have a close kinship with some of you on other continents--which is nice, because people in my country are terrible about not getting out often enough or learning about the rest of the world. There's something comforting about knowing that in places as removed from each other as here just outside of Dallas, Texas; somewhere near Vancouver; somewhere in London in the UK; the Netherlands; South Africa; and New Zealand; there are other people interested in topics like werewolves.

MoonKit · Post by **MoonKit** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:38 pm

We gain some, we lose some. I'm not worried. I still like it here.

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:08 pm

Matt speaks out the biggest issue here and he is right, and I am guilty of trying to prevent someone of speaking out their mind. Kaebora took the words right out of my mouth when he says if you think it will get a negative feedback then try not to post it, this will inevitably happen anyway since we're not perfect but I really get upset when someone respond to the post that can have a negative feedback. I don't mind this on most topics but on some like when fredriksam told us about hes story, the whole Im for or against piracy was a bit uncalled for there IMO, everyone should have just said their opinion about the subject and not Matt's post, thats why I picked on Morkulv because I thought he was responding directly to Matt's post and that pissed me off. Well anyway as long as we don't repeat our mistakes then its all nice and dandy.

Dreamer · Post by **Dreamer** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:38 pm

MattSullivan wrote:I find there are intolerant people here. That is, "If you have an opinion other than ours, you're a troublemakes or a hate-monger, and we will put words in your mouth" kind of intolerant

Well, I disagree with you on many many things, but I don't think of you as a hatemonger (I think that PAraiah's closing down of your thread a really bad idea, as your statements didn't really seem that "Anti-Furry"). Also, didn't yo usay that

OK. I have absoloutely HAD IT with this place. As of this moment, I am choosing to disassociate myself with THE PACK. I'll be clearing out the CL forum, and do not intend to return OR post here ever again.

Please Matt and everyone else, COme back and kiss and make up so that MAtt can come back. He's a vital member of the Pack, I like him and I want to be able to back him up with your efforts on getting "Camp Lycanthrope" made. So MAtt, please forgive us.[/quote]

PariahPoet · Post by **PariahPoet** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:09 pm

Why am I getting blamed for things? I didn't do a bloody thing!

In case you haven't noticed I am NOT a mod. Apparently Fig didn't think I was good enough for the job. So I have no power to close threads, so don't go blaming me for topics getting locked!

Morkulv · Post by **Morkulv** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:22 pm

MattSullivan wrote:I find there are intolerant people here. That is, "If you have an opinion other than ours, you're a troublemakes or a hate-monger, and we will put words in your mouth" kind of intolerant

Well, I too noticed that. Doesn't mean it can't be fixed though.

MattSullivan · Post by **MattSullivan** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:25 pm

I AM back. I ALMOST left out of anger, but I want to satay and make my opinions HEARD. ( not shove them down your throat until you believe them )

Xiroteus · Post by **Xiroteus** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:00 pm

I still believe we can have discussions in peace, having a difference of opinion does not mean you hate each other (At least not for me). Not bringing up anything that could have a possibility of getting negative feedback could limit many different subjects, intentions of starting said topic and opinions are important as well, I like to discuss different view points on many subjects, different opinion are not taken personally.

JoshuaMadoc · Post by **JoshuaMadoc** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 9:50 pm

PariahPoet wrote:Why am I getting blamed for things? I didn't do a bloody thing!

You were acting like a persecuted christian when i mentioned furries at a tone i thought was neutral. That bothered me extremely, and genuinely intimidated me to the point that i can't see the point to even sneeze at most threads.

In case you haven't noticed I am NOT a mod. Apparently Fig didn't think I was good enough for the job. So I have no power to close threads, so don't go blaming me for topics getting locked!

If that's the case, then you should at least take SOME responsibility.

Set · Post by **Set** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:23 pm

I think the main problem with this place is that some members don't seem to realize that you can state an opinion WITHOUT SOUNDING LIKE A JACKASS.

Seriously. Work on your people skills.

Lukas · Post by **Lukas** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:42 pm

Set wrote:I think the main problem with this place is that some members don't seem to realize that you can state an opinion WITHOUT SOUNDING LIKE A JACKASS.

Seriously. Work on your people skills.

yes i noticed you changed the way you say things a little differently then you used to (pls don't take this the wrong way and stab me

)

PariahPoet · Post by **PariahPoet** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:10 pm

Kit- because you and Matt word your posts as if all furries are friggin pedos and I'm sick of having to explain to people that it's not like stupid people try to make it out to be.

If you don't like us, fine, but don't be surprised when people get angry at multiple posts calling furries pervs.

If you say things that you know will be hurtful to people, don't be surprised and act like you're the one under attack when they get upset.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:48 pm

PariahPoet wrote:Kit- because you and Matt word your posts as if all furries are friggin pedos and I'm sick of having to explain to people that it's not like stupid people try to make it out to be.

If you don't like us, fine, but don't be surprised when people get angry at multiple posts calling furries pervs.

If you say things that you know will be hurtful to people, don't be surprised and act like you're the one under attack when they get upset.

Amen.

Like I said in Fredriksam's bootlegger thread, what really troubles me is that the two of you should know from your own experience that it's not kosher to bash furries and doing so never ends in anything positive, and yet you still do it. If you know something greatly offends an individual and yet you do it again, I'm going to assume it was your intent to offend in the first place.

JoshuaMadoc · Post by **JoshuaMadoc** » Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:56 pm

PariahPoet wrote:Kit- because you and Matt word your posts as if all furries are friggin pedos and I'm sick of having to explain to people that it's not like stupid people try to make it out to be.

That's exactly the part where you're acting like a persecuted and presumptuous christian. I already have a more-than-basic idea of what furries are and their less than stellar history, because i was a furry for 3 years before realizing that my crusade was to be for an uptight secret society with extreme temper problems, and yet you never asked me or Matt, most likely because you were much too aggravated to even hear anymore of what i have to say. And believe it or not, there are more people with similar problems than i first expected there would be.

If you don't like us, fine, but don't be surprised when people get angry at multiple posts calling furries pervs.

Again with the assumptions. I hardly ever call furries "pervs". In fact, the correct technical term(s) would either be "oversensitive" and "idiot". But then again, why even bother succumbing to such trivial taunts? Is the community that i once served really that vain? Because if they were, then that would be justification for me to accompany myself with the jaded and more "civil" minority of furries who are the true victims of the stigma that furries themselves have created.

If you say things that you know will be hurtful to people, don't be surprised and act like you're the one under attack when they get upset.

Unfortunately you don't have much right to dictate my words. I will only say what's necessary, meaning it WILL hurt one way or the other, and i absolutely loathe having to speak with wreaths upon wreaths of flora wrapped around my tongue. My only best advice to you is to swallow everything you hold dear, and concede.

In fact, learning to laugh at yourself is also a great way to not be the real furry that "bullies like to pick on".

IndianaJones · Post by **IndianaJones** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:05 am

Let's just say that everyone here don't really agree with each other. But we all have similar interests, but different opinions (of course) and beliefs. New members join and some old ones left, or just ignore it.

The belief of what a true fictional fantasy werewolf can be everyone's opinion and creation. But the portrayal of it is pretty hard because of all the hardships, conflicts, and life that a werewolf must go. So, those who know what a werewolf really is might be disagreed. It's crazy, man.

If werewolves do really exist in this world, they are going to eliminated and hunt down to extinction, unless the human society accepts werewolves, but I would doubt that. Christians and Muslims are almost everywhere on Earth, so they will want to get rid of the "so-called" devil's soldier or demon. That's bullshit.

PariahPoet · Post by **PariahPoet** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:06 am

kitetsu wrote: That's exactly the part where you're acting like a persecuted and presumptuous christian.

Can we leave Christians out of this as well? Take a look at the way you say things. Twice you've talked about Christians whining about being persecuted. It sounds very much like this is your view of all Christians.
This es exactly the same reason why you're pissing off the furries. You don't say anything directly (other than "oversensitive" and "idiots" in your last post ^^), however, you normally imply negative things about groups like furries and Christians. Why wouldn't this hurt people's feelings?

Silverclaw · Post by **Silverclaw** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:11 am

I agree that people should be a little more considerate with others feelings when posting.

Sorry, I got an off-topic question: whatever happened to the 'Problem with Freeborn?' thread and the 'Are we Ruining Werewolves' thread?

Kaebora · Post by **Kaebora** » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:12 am

PariahPoet wrote:Why am I getting blamed for things? I didn't do a bloody thing!

In case you haven't noticed I am NOT a mod. Apparently Fig didn't think I was good enough for the job. So I have no power to close threads, so don't go blaming me for topics getting locked!

Please check that attitude. Nobody mentioned your name even once before you posted that. Please stop assuming someone is talking about you unless they actually physically say your name. There are no hidden meanings in what I type, and I'm fairly sure there isn't in anyone elses posts. It isn't nice to get personal in public.

I'll say right now that it's this kind of reaction to posts that causes some of the biggest problems, and it happens with a lot of people. Misinterpretation.

The purpose of this thread is to address how to improve ourselves to avoid excessive conflict. Not to nit pick and point fingers at people.

Silverclaw wrote:Sorry, I got an off-topic question: whatever happened to the 'Problem with Freeborn?' thread and the 'Are we Ruining Werewolves' thread?

Hmm. I thought someone already got on that. Make a topic if they haven't yet.

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