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We all know when a werewolf bites a human, that human will also turn into a werewolf.
But what if a werewolf went around biting a few different species(too much coconut )
Would the bite change anything else you think?(assuming the ww doesn't eat said animal first of course)
I'm thinking it would work in changing regular wild wolves. But what about other closely related species; such as other canines, or even primates?
(I love the thought of a were-wolf chimp. lol )

Um....when a animal is bitten from a werewolf, the animal doesn't turn into anything. Instead it only gets hurt and not infected with lycanthropy. Only humans can be turned, not animals.

In fantasy lore, let's say humans and elves can be turn into werewolves.

To answer that, you'd first have to explain why it allows humans and/or wolves to become werewolves. If it's a syndrome of some sort caused by a virus or bacteria, it's unreasonable to think it would affect everything, but also unlikely that it would only affect humans and nothing else. Without knowing how/why it does what it does, all we can do is stab wildly in the dark (which I'm about to do).

If it was a syndrome that specifically passed on wolf-like traits, other animals infected with lycanthropy would develop a gestalt form that is half wolf and half their original species. If that was the case, however, while regular wolves could carry the syndrome, they couldn't become werewolves because they already have the features the syndrome would give them.

That said, the only way I could imagine lycanthropy being able to transform humans and wolves alike into the same gestalt form would be (and this is a real long shot) if lycanthropy had a memory bank of both the current host and the former host; that the passing of lycanthropy could have two possible results: If the recipient is the same species, it acquires the same form as the transmitter, but if the recipient is a different species, it acquires the form of the transmitter.

When you think about how people classically become werewolves, unless they were born one, it usually comes down to one of two scenarios: They get bitten by a werewolf, or they get bitten by a wolf. If you buy into the possibility I posed above, it doesn't matter which because they both end up passing on the wolf form. What that would in turn mean is that a wolf could become a werewolf if infected by a human or a wolf that was infected by a human.

When we get into cross-species infecting, that's when it becomes tricky. However, assuming the lycanthropic syndrome does copy/record the DNA of the recipient and pass on that of the original transmitter, I'm assuming there would be a dominant set that was copied from the body and the passive set that was transmitted into it. If a werewolf were to infect someone outside of his species that had no relation to his gestalt type, I think the result would be a form of lycanthropy with a passive set of the werewolf's dominant set (IE: a human form) and a dominant set copied from the recipient DNA's.

I know that didn't make a lot of sense, but what it basically means is that, if a human werewolf were to infect, say, a cat, the cat's gestalt form would be a mix of feline and human traits. If, however, the same cat were to be infected by a wolf, its gestalt form would be a mix of feline and wolf traits. The only exception would be if said cat was infected by a cat with lycanthropy, in which case I think the dominant set would match up against the recipient's DNA and "die," allowing for the transmission of the passive set.

Am I the only one that can imagine Ben Stein reading this out loud?

The only situation I've ever seen of a Werewolf's bite having an effect on a non-Human was in Cursed- where a normally loving and lazy dog was turned into a...a..Werewolf dog.
That was NOT easy to watch: I was laughing too much at the time.

Then there was Peter David's "Howling Mad", in which a werewolf bit a wolf, with predictable results (poor wolfy lost all its fur and claws). Fun book actually.

Considering lycanthropy usually is designed (either by nature or crazy sciencey folks) to turn a man into a wolf (or wolf-like critter), I'd be inclined to say that it's unlikely it'd effect anything else.

Besides, it's kinda a bit silly if the infectee was, like a dog.

So it goes from being a dog to, what? A bigger and wolfier looking thing? Suddenly is able to stand on two legs when it shifts?

Those of us who go with the virus-like agent premise, I'm pretty much inclined to agree with Aki. Lycanthropy would likely piggyback genetically specifically off humans. Something extremely close might work--a chimpanzee might briefly look lupine before getting mangled horribly. A surviving Australopithicus might even have a chance of living through the first shift and seeing wolf form.

Those who go with "hard magic" explanations (that is, "I reject your reality and substitute my own") can have considerable more liberty. A "soft magic" (that is, one kind of works with conventional science but fudges with anything from quantum loopholes to a gene that connects to the faerie realm) might do some sideways effects, such as having a wolf bitten by a werewolf now able to turn human.

In Wulfen Blood, I use the semi-soft magic explanation: The actual change is done by a Viroid (a virus-like structure, only quite a bit larger to contain the necessary genetic information) that "prepares" the Crosser for meeting the Wulfen Deity, Luin-Hra (which the Romans changed to Lunara). The trouble with the Pure Virus thing is that no virus I can readily find is large enough to contain other than the usual Virus stuff: reproduction information.
That's what a Virus basically does, anyhow: It invades a cell and hijacks the Cell's reproductive equipment to make more Viruses...period. The related illnesses are mostly due to WHAT the virus makes its home in. Plus, you eventually gain immunity to that particular virus, shutting it down.
That would be tragic for a werewolf: getting over the viral infection.

I agree with your take on viruses RedEye, but I still use the word "virus" sometimes for lack of a better one. "Symbiont" or "bacterium" might be more accurate, albeit much softer terms.

There's also the simple fact that some animals can't get certain diseases-or "infections" that Humans can.
Since the "Lupus Inceptor virus/viroid" is so very specialized*- it might ONLY work on Humans-and nobody else.
That would keep it from turning a bitten cat into a Were'critter that spent all its time chasing itself.

*The "lupus inceptor virus/viroid" has to completaly re-write the Human genome to make the human into a bi-morphic metamorph, install a pile of "instinct" modules in the brain, and then turn half the skin cells into fur follicles. Quite a bit, really.

I prefer the type that only affects humans (takeing on the likeness of a wolf but not really a wolf) Which fits for most werewolf movies where they look little like real wolves or act like them.
But as a virus, bacteria, or symbiote organism it makes the most sense that the species line affected needs to be close to the one affected such as humans, which as others have stated would imply closely related species should also be affected to some degree, and if it also affects wolves than also able to affect close wolf relatives like dogs and coyotes.

In magic it makes even more sense to be limited, different requirements for even slightly different things (for most anyway that use the fantasy world rules: where certain things work within certain permaters.)

Cursed: the dog being infected was weird but not too far off. granted it came off a little too vicious and ugly.

The worst thing ever was Ginger Snaps 3 where leeches feeding on werewolf blood would turn all furry and monstrous. In such a case we would quikly end up with werewolf ticks, fleas, mosquitos, and then spread to other animals as a massive PitchBlack type of world epidemic with monsters everywhere. Not a well thought out concept.

Rhuen wrote:The worst thing ever was Ginger Snaps 3 where leeches feeding on werewolf blood would turn all furry and monstrous. In such a case we would quikly end up with werewolf ticks, fleas, mosquitos, and then spread to other animals as a massive PitchBlack type of world epidemic with monsters everywhere. Not a well thought out concept.

Yeah: they reminded me of teacup poodles in need of grooming. The attitude was already there...

There are quite a few diseases that are specific to only one species of animal. And there are also diseases that affect humans, but not animals.

I recall a book in which it was said that if one wanted to become a werewolf, eating the brains of an animal killed by a wolf was a sure way to do it. So, it could be that other animals can carry the virus but are not affected by it.

Long time not seen Merrypaws!

It could be possible that the Werewolf Viroid (or Symbiont) would make its home in the brain as a first location, then spread to the rest of the body by means of the circulatory system.
If, however, the animal died as a result of the Werewolf's bite (or two or three) the most likely place to find the viroid would be at the location of the bite mark, not the brain.

That could be where rabies comes from. Thats how the disease manifests in animals.

MoonKit wrote:That could be where rabies comes from. Thats how the disease manifests in animals.

except that humans get rabies as well. So a stretch for writing. I have seen something like this before though, some disease that mutates humans but kills other things.

the T-virus from Resident evil is a recent type, mutates animal life into zombies or other monsters but kills plant life (and for some stupid reason dries up water, seriously how dumb is that, no life so water vanishes WTF?)

Good idea limiting the effects of the werewolf virus to humans, though the other option could be good for more humorous stories.

The "shape shifting can only be inherited" model would eliminate the problem of non human organisms getting infected and wolf traits (or other traits if discussing other weres) being passed on to them (like leech-wolves ). I recognize and respect that this board mostly sticks by the "lyncanthopy is a virus/bacteria and can be passed on by bites or sexually transmitted" idea.

I did hope to be able to discuss this and if it has been discussed to death in other threads, I am sorry I did not find this board earlier. I have been a werewolf and other shape shifter fan for years.

RedEye wrote:The trouble with the Pure Virus thing is that no virus I can readily find is large enough to contain other than the usual Virus stuff: reproduction information.

RedEye wrote:
*The "lupus inceptor virus/viroid" has to completaly re-write the Human genome to make the human into a bi-morphic metamorph, install a pile of "instinct" modules in the brain, and then turn half the skin cells into fur follicles. Quite a bit, really.

hmm...well, wouldn't it not be the viroid actually making all those changes, apart from the DNA, but rather your body making those changes after the DNA is rewritten?

Also, given the present knowledge that over 95% of our DNA is "junk" DNA supposedly made of leftover stuff we don't use anymore, wouldn't it seem plausible that a viroid might quite easily be able to carry all the DNA necessary to make these changes if it isn't also carrying tons of useless "junk" DNA around?

Also how big would this viroid be? Keep in mind this would be something completely different from any normal virus or other microscopic organism....so why try to look for a conventional virus that can hold this much information?

It's within the realm of possibility that you could have something pretty honking big (like, the size of a large bacterium) which is still capable of modifying the DNA of a host. It doesn't have to enter the cell, it just has to inject the DNA into it...

Good point. In "Wulfen Blood", the Lupus Inceptor viroid is an order of magnitude larger than a regular virus, being just barely visible in optical microscopes (usually mistaken as a bit of efus in the serum it's in). It's about 1/100th the size of a paramecium, which makes it freakin' HUGE as a Virus.

Now, about 95% of the Human Genome being junk: maybe it's the sub-scripts fof specific organ development, or maybe it's our history as a species, left there as a backup. Nature is too parsimonius to leave junk lying around, and we still don't know how the genes exactly work yet, other than certain genes seem to be involved with certain developments or processes in the human body.
That's what the Inceptor viroid does, though; it rewrites (or reprograms) some of these "junk" genesets into being something other than what they were; namely becoming the instructive bits that allow the human form to become bi-morphic with a Lupus as the other "morph".

One thing the Viroid does do, is to cause the cells it infects to remain "Same as Host" while being as different as a jackrabbit is from a jackass; all the while secreting a chemical trigger that, when it reaches a certain level, initiates the Crossing Over process. Note, though; that the first thing it does is modify the bone marrow to start producing I-Cells (super anti-infection cells) and R-Cells (like stem cells, able to become any part of the host's body at need-including more bone marrow!). Then after infection has passed a specific point, the Wolf-Measles appear; skin cells becoming fur follicles for the new Wulf's fur. If you look closely, you can see what the new WUlf's coat will probably look like, by the color of the mutated skin cells (once Crossed, they disappear and look like skin again.
Thus, my Werewolves remain young into their eighties and never get sick,
not bad as infections go...

RedEye wrote:Good point. In "Wulfen Blood", the Lupus Inceptor viroid is an order of magnitude larger than a regular virus, being just barely visible in optical microscopes (usually mistaken as a bit of efus in the serum it's in). It's about 1/100th the size of a paramecium, which makes it freakin' HUGE as a Virus.

Now, about 95% of the Human Genome being junk: maybe it's the sub-scripts fof specific organ development, or maybe it's our history as a species, left there as a backup. Nature is too parsimonius to leave junk lying around, and we still don't know how the genes exactly work yet, other than certain genes seem to be involved with certain developments or processes in the human body.
That's what the Inceptor viroid does, though; it rewrites (or reprograms) some of these "junk" genesets into being something other than what they were; namely becoming the instructive bits that allow the human form to become bi-morphic with a Lupus as the other "morph".

One thing the Viroid does do, is to cause the cells it infects to remain "Same as Host" while being as different as a jackrabbit is from a jackass; all the while secreting a chemical trigger that, when it reaches a certain level, initiates the Crossing Over process. Note, though; that the first thing it does is modify the bone marrow to start producing I-Cells (super anti-infection cells) and R-Cells (like stem cells, able to become any part of the host's body at need-including more bone marrow!). Then after infection has passed a specific point, the Wolf-Measles appear; skin cells becoming fur follicles for the new Wulf's fur. If you look closely, you can see what the new WUlf's coat will probably look like, by the color of the mutated skin cells (once Crossed, they disappear and look like skin again.
Thus, my Werewolves remain young into their eighties and never get sick,
not bad as infections go...

Not bad at all as far as infections go. As I said in other posts I look forward to reading your stories. Also I do enjoy your posts.

RedEye wrote:
Now, about 95% of the Human Genome being junk: maybe it's the sub-scripts of specific organ development, or maybe it's our history as a species, left there as a backup. Nature is too parsimonius to leave junk lying around, and we still don't know how the genes exactly work yet, other than certain genes seem to be involved with certain developments or processes in the human body.

Well, I'd have to disagree with you on that one.... nature does leave junk around on occasion... I mean, snakes still have the remnants of their pelvis from when they had legs, human males still have a notch on the back of their skull which used to attach to a neck muscle we no longer have....on the genetic level there's bound to be scraps left over as well.

Think of it as a lego set...you have 10 boxes of legos, and you only use half a box to build something.... you still have all the pieces lying around. Later on you might swap pieces off, add to the lego model, or replace a part entirely.

Although, there is one theory for this junk DNA..... way back when life was first evolving, a symbiotic "viroid" of sorts may have invaded the cells of our microscopic ancestors... inserting its own DNA into the works, essentially restructuring the entire inner workings of the host cell, and taking the role of the Mitochondria which now convert energy for our cells. In the process, it also left all the junk DNA that it needed to survive outside before it had integrated itself into our cells...

So rather than a virus, which conventionally is geared solely towards its own reproduction.... a symbiote would both preserve itself AND the host cell, transforming both itself and the host cell in the process to serve each other's purpose.

So, if your "viroid" isn't simply a large virus but rather a symbiote which remains in the host cell and forms an entirely new organelle in the host cell, it could probably more easily modify the cell's structure, and more importantly serve to trigger a transformation, since DNA modification alone, which is more geared towards slower, permanent changes, couldn't necessarily do something as dynamic as that.

This might also work better in terms of your body's ability to fight the lycanthropy "infection"... the very first step in the process might be the symbiote being consumed by a white blood cell, only to rewrite it from the inside, and turn your body's own immune system into a tool for converting the rest of your cells...this way, the microbe doesn't have to do all the work...what better way to rebuild your body than to reprogram the very cells that maintain it to do the job for you? Right?

I don't know if that is how you envision your viroid...but I thought I'd just throw in my input there...

Speaking of which, RedEye...i notice we're going back and forth on a number of topics about the REALLY in-depth theory/science, etc. in your book or in general. Actually you pointed this out earlier on another topic.
I know you have a topic specifically for your book, but talking about it there might distract from other book-related discussions...might we want a topic for how it all works?

I read a book once that had a wenwolf in it. It was a dog that turned into a werewolf on the full moon. I don't know if that would be the case for all animals or just canines.

Howlitzer wrote:

RedEye wrote:
Now, about 95% of the Human Genome being junk: maybe it's the sub-scripts of specific organ development, or maybe it's our history as a species, left there as a backup. Nature is too parsimonius to leave junk lying around, and we still don't know how the genes exactly work yet, other than certain genes seem to be involved with certain developments or processes in the human body.

Well, I'd have to disagree with you on that one.... nature does leave junk around on occasion... I mean, snakes still have the remnants of their pelvis from when they had legs, human males still have a notch on the back of their skull which used to attach to a neck muscle we no longer have....on the genetic level there's bound to be scraps left over as well.

Think of it as a lego set...you have 10 boxes of legos, and you only use half a box to build something.... you still have all the pieces lying around. Later on you might swap pieces off, add to the lego model, or replace a part entirely.

Although, there is one theory for this junk DNA..... way back when life was first evolving, a symbiotic "viroid" of sorts may have invaded the cells of our microscopic ancestors... inserting its own DNA into the works, essentially restructuring the entire inner workings of the host cell, and taking the role of the Mitochondria which now convert energy for our cells. In the process, it also left all the junk DNA that it needed to survive outside before it had integrated itself into our cells...

So rather than a virus, which conventionally is geared solely towards its own reproduction.... a symbiote would both preserve itself AND the host cell, transforming both itself and the host cell in the process to serve each other's purpose.

So, if your "viroid" isn't simply a large virus but rather a symbiote which remains in the host cell and forms an entirely new organelle in the host cell, it could probably more easily modify the cell's structure, and more importantly serve to trigger a transformation, since DNA modification alone, which is more geared towards slower, permanent changes, couldn't necessarily do something as dynamic as that.

This might also work better in terms of your body's ability to fight the lycanthropy "infection"... the very first step in the process might be the symbiote being consumed by a white blood cell, only to rewrite it from the inside, and turn your body's own immune system into a tool for converting the rest of your cells...this way, the microbe doesn't have to do all the work...what better way to rebuild your body than to reprogram the very cells that maintain it to do the job for you? Right?

I don't know if that is how you envision your viroid...but I thought I'd just throw in my input there...

Speaking of which, RedEye...i notice we're going back and forth on a number of topics about the REALLY in-depth theory/science, etc. in your book or in general. Actually you pointed this out earlier on another topic.
I know you have a topic specifically for your book, but talking about it there might distract from other book-related discussions...might we want a topic for how it all works?

Take a look in the Werewolf Novels section: Wulfen Blood is a thread there. Ask, and it will be answered (at least what I have notes for). I did a huge amount of research to get the stories as plausable as I could make them, and that paid off in the book...which I may have an Artist for.
All I need is a good cover and I can publish.