After the Caucus: reaction and discussion in a polite manner

The place for anything at all...

Are you still going to vote like you indicated on the previous thread?

No. I switched (say why, pls.)
3
33%
I'm sticking with my first choice (say why, pls.)
6
67%
2 - Doesn’t really care either way
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No votes
3 - They’re pretty cool I guess, but they aren’t an obsession
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 9

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Post by RedEye »

Re: Libertarians... There is this problem in that everything I've read or heard about the Libertarians is that they are an Economic Philosophy, trying to be a Political party. Can anybody name the other Economic Philosophy that became a political party? :lol:

Hillary is the old Liberal party leader. She is only interested in Population density, because that equates to Electors. Obama is a hint of change: he seems interested in everybody, not just the Big States. He actually seems to care about people, not just Population...of course, that means nothing other than he has a good management team.

It would appear that the challenge is to be Obama vs. McCain. That will make for a tightly fought election. Of course, the Liberal-Controlled Democratic party might just run Hillary, anyhow; no matter how well Obama does. That has happened before.
That will insure McCain's election. Hillary is OLD Liberal stuff, and people are getting tired of "old" Liberal stuff. They want someone new, and Obama is that person. Hillary will be four more years of Bill-and everyone but Hillary knows it.
In fact, listening to Hillary, one hears the Liberal Maxim "We're smarter than you, better than you; and we'll put you in jail (or take away your money) to prove it." Baby Aristocrats, every one.
Obama's different. How much is hard to tell; those speeches are tailored like an expensive suit...but he seems different; more like the old Democratic Party than the current one. This is good.
McCain is...odd. He votes like a Liberal Democrat on most things, and like a Conservative Republican on the rest. He's registered Republican, but he's voted Democrat more often than not. He's Anti-Gun, anti-Free Speech, and Anti-Abortion. I'm not sure what he's in favor of, other than more power to the President...but so are Hillary and Obama.
As far as I'm concerned, we need a "None of the Above" category in the Presidential race. A little fear makes Politicians more honest.
I'm sixty years old. I hope I live long enough to have someone I want to vote FOR, instead of just trying to find the least of the evils presented to me. I'm not holding my breath, though... :(
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Post by MoonKit »

Be prepared for a whole lot more of this, Dreamer. Over the next few months, the media and the other candidates will try very hard to get you to have doubts about your candidate. You have to remember to read the bad stuff on Hillary and McCain too. They want you to be unsure.
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Post by RedEye »

MoonKit wrote:
Be prepared for a whole lot more of this, Dreamer. Over the next few months, the media and the other candidates will try very hard to get you to have doubts about your candidate. You have to remember to read the bad stuff on Hillary and McCain too. They want you to be unsure.
The Media has been playing "Kingmaker" ever since the country was founded. If you think that the stuff today is putrid, you ought to see some of the "Editorials" from the early 1800's. The 1860 election was particularly nasty, since we had three parties in the nation then: the Whigs (Conservative City), Republicans (Modern Democrats) and the Democrats, who further muddied things by splitting and having a Southern Democratic Party and a Northern Democratic Party. The Southern Democrats were all about States rights (not slavery per se.) and the Northern Democrats were the new Industrial Party.

Things are mild today, by those standards.
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Post by vrikasatma »

I saw Obama in Seattle WA yesterday. Here's something you'll <i>never</i> hear CNN talk about.

The crowd at Key Arena in the shadow of the Space Needle numbered around 21,000, three thousand more than the facility had room for. Obama's people huddled with the fire marshall and got the nod to let those 3,000 extra people in, and we found places for them that didn't compromise security. That's Coolness Factor #1; the second is even better.

There were about 1,000 people on the floor directly in front of the stage where Barack would talk. He was pacing back and forth across the stage, mike in hand, and filling the hall with that rich baritone of his. Suddenly he stopped, and went over to the edge of the stage, saying into the mike, "Are you alright?"

He'd <i>seen</i> a woman in the middle of that crowd, so pressed in by the crowd that she'd fainted standing up. And he talked directly to her until the medicos came and got her and took her to a chair to take care of her.

I don't know for sure if the other candidates would do that for <i><b>one</i></b> person in their crowds, but I do know for sure it happened there, at Barack Obama's rally in Seattle Washington. And tonight, we TOOK Washington; Hillary carried one county, the rest was entirely ours.

This man <i>NEEDS</i> to be in the Oval Office, and that's the long and short of it.
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Post by Renorei »

MoonKit wrote:
Be prepared for a whole lot more of this, Dreamer. Over the next few months, the media and the other candidates will try very hard to get you to have doubts about your candidate. You have to remember to read the bad stuff on Hillary and McCain too. They want you to be unsure.

I'm not so sure about that. It seems to me that the media has been awfully friendly to Obama and very unfair to Clinton. She may or may not be the best candidate for president, but she's certainly a legitimate candidate, and not the "spawn of Satan" that far too many uninformed yokels think she is.

Despite that, the media, the other candidates, and all of America's misogynists never fail to take a stab at her whenever there's even the slightest opportunity (and sometimes they create their own opportunities) to do so. It sickens me. It doesn't matter to me if she gets elected or not, I just want her to be treated as fairly as the other candidates. She doesn't deserve to be demonized just because she's a woman. :x Just goes to show those people who think this country is worse for black men than for women that they're wrong. All a black man has to do is dress nice and be well-spoken and educated; a woman can do all of that and still not be treated the same.


Sorry, I guess this is a little off-topic and very ranty. Still, I felt it needed to be said. I really hate the fact that this is 2008 and we're still dealing with these problems.
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Post by vrikasatma »

Renorei —

I don't know which media outlets you've been frequenting, but over on CNN it's a Hillary lovefest. Even when Obama was sweeping the Nebraska-Louisiana-Washington caucuses yesterday, all they could do was talk about what this means for Hillary.

On Super Tuesday, we had to piece it together for ourselves that Obama was taking more states, because CNN was glossing that over and covering Hillary almost exclusively.

They're also skewing the delegates to include Hillary's superdelegates so it appears she's in the lead, when it's Obama who has more delegates and is closer to the nomination.

There was also a news article that came up on Digg that went something like this: a reporter at the Washington caucus tried to get a live interview with Governor Gregoire on CNN but was rebuffed; apparently, he was told "She's for Obama, that's the only problem."

They're playing a very soft-peddled and low-level snub game, you have to pay attention and know what's what to catch it, but they're as biased towards Hillary as Fox News is towards the Republican Party. It's scary that the Neo-Con media mouthpiece is getting known for balanced coverage...
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Post by Renorei »

I get most of my news from internet sources. I rarely watch TV at all, but maybe I should.

As an example of what I'm talking about, Yahoo never fails to take stabs at Hillary when they post news items. They always choose articles that paint Obama in a positive light, Clinton in a negative one. Also, the ABC News debate forums on facebook are almost always biased AGAINST Hillary (as an example of what I'm talking about, they actually had the stupidity/gall to post a question a while back about whether a woman could be as effective a president as a man, though there was no such question about blacks).

It may seem like these things aren't important. However, almost all of my generation gets their news from the internet. We rarely watch TV or pick up newspapers.
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Post by ravaged_warrior »

Anyone taking race or gender into account when they choose a candidate is being an idiot and probably shouldn't be voting. That doesn't keep me from disliking Hilary Clinton for other reasons, however.
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Post by vrikasatma »

[nodding] I'm not a great television fan either, but I go up to the clubhouse TV room when big things are afoot. Like, the Presidential campaign :wink:

Our local cable provider doesn't carry MSNBC, so my national news channel choices are limited to Fox and CNN. Fox is so goofy and saccharin that I can't stand them in general, and C-SPAN does more legislative programming than electoral, so I watch CNN :pissedoff: — but if I had a choice, I'd go to MSNBC. :|
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Post by RedEye »

Can you get BBC there? They have a completely different take on the Election...poor dears can't seem to understand it for some reason. And the Electoral College had them saying, "...but we dumped ours two hundred years ago as unnecessary..." assuming their delegate system was anything like the Electoral College.
Hmmm... the only College that doesn't offer a degree in something... :P

Apparently in Britain, the election stuff is on late at night, in a bloc of programming, and doesn't interrupt the regular telly programmes at all. Considering that we merchandise our candidates, maybe this could be an idea for here as well- Candidates mixed in with Hair Restorer and Laxatives...and vi*gra... :lol:

My recommendation for this huggermugger: Watch lots of TeeVee, take notes and compare: the Truth is out there...somewhere...I think. :roll:
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Post by Aki »

Renorei wrote:I get most of my news from internet sources. I rarely watch TV at all, but maybe I should.

As an example of what I'm talking about, Yahoo never fails to take stabs at Hillary when they post news items. They always choose articles that paint Obama in a positive light, Clinton in a negative one. Also, the ABC News debate forums on facebook are almost always biased AGAINST Hillary (as an example of what I'm talking about, they actually had the stupidity/gall to post a question a while back about whether a woman could be as effective a president as a man, though there was no such question about blacks).

It may seem like these things aren't important. However, almost all of my generation gets their news from the internet. We rarely watch TV or pick up newspapers.
That's why you hop around on the Internet. Using only one or two sources in a network of information is downright silly. :P
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Post by vrikasatma »

RedEye wrote:Can you get BBC there? They have a completely different take on the Election...poor dears can't seem to understand it for some reason.

My recommendation for this huggermugger: Watch lots of TeeVee, take notes and compare: the Truth is out there...somewhere...I think. :roll:
The clubhouse television is connected to Comca$t...those guys are more evil than WalMart, Camel and Fox News put together...and I don't have a television of my own. So, I have to watch Comcast, which <i>do not</i> carry BBC. :roll: :eyebrow: :x

Fortunately, though, I'm on the NationStates.net site (yes, still!) and that's jolt.uk.co. So I do see what's being said in the British media. Here's the word: they <i>like</i> Obama. So does Canada. Personally I don't think other countries should have a say in our Presidential election — and no, we shouldn't have a say in how they choose their leaders either, so long as it's not a dictatorship — but it is nice to know that a strong contender for the Oval Office has other countries' esteem going in.

But pretty much, I'm 105% behind Obama. The time for note-taking passed a <i>long</i> time ago, we're into the action part.

I'm taking Campaign's word for it. It's their business to know exactly where we're standing, they have fulltime dedicated people who are paid to know, and I consider that the golden standard against which we hold the media accountable.
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Post by Midnight »

I'm not going to say what I think of the candidates here (partly in deference to Vrik' and partly because I only really know about them second hand from friends who are actually in America so I could be way wrong about them) but I'm not surprised that the BBC are somewhat bemused by the whole performance.

What goes on in the "Westminster" system (used, with local variations, in Australia, New Zealand and Britain, and probably Canada as well although I'm not quite sure how Canadians go about things) is basically this: The party members decide who their local candidate will be a few months before the general election; whichever candidates win seats in the general election elect the party leader - but practice, the leader who led their party into an election remains leader, at least until their caucus votes them out - other than in exceptional circumstances, such as the leader losing their seat at the general election (as John Howard did in Australia last year, if I remember right).

All this business about primaries and stuff would be regarded as an internal party matter and normally wouldn't get much of a mention other than in the candidate's local papers unless there was something seriously newsworthy going on (for example, if a sitting MP wasn't selected as a candidate). There's also fewer levels of bureaucracy between people and electoral results (no electoral college, for example)... particularly in New Zealand, where a decade or so back the system was altered to a combination of the "Westminster" system and a German system, every vote counts.
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Post by Lukas »

well i recently just lost a lot of respect for obama
http://www.beyondchron.org/articles/The ... _5413.html

i still like him over Hillary, but this is just disappointing
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Post by vrikasatma »

The Oregon state Obama campaign just kicked off yesterday. We had MoveOn-style house parties across the state where we listened in on a conference call and did some phone banking to Texas and Ohio.

Today was a quiet day and I caught up on housework, but tomorrow we're right back into it with a primary watch party. We already have 40 people RSVP'ed for it, so it's gonna be a rip-roarin' pizza-infested time. A local pizza joint is Obama-friendly and we've pretty much made them our local campaign's rumpus room.

I've pretty much crested the tidal wave and I'm riding high, making signs, t-shirts, buttons, party plans (I've become the group's party maven of sorts) and I'm getting stretched three ways! But it's great and my excitement hasn't diminished.
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Post by Lukas »

vrikasatma wrote:The Oregon state Obama campaign just kicked off yesterday. We had MoveOn-style house parties across the state where we listened in on a conference call and did some phone banking to Texas and Ohio.

Today was a quiet day and I caught up on housework, but tomorrow we're right back into it with a primary watch party. We already have 40 people RSVP'ed for it, so it's gonna be a rip-roarin' pizza-infested time. A local pizza joint is Obama-friendly and we've pretty much made them our local campaign's rumpus room.

I've pretty much crested the tidal wave and I'm riding high, making signs, t-shirts, buttons, party plans (I've become the group's party maven of sorts) and I'm getting stretched three ways! But it's great and my excitement hasn't diminished.
your a obama supporter, can you explain his voting record for me? i can't understand why he was voting that way
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Post by Renorei »

According to the sites I'm looking at, Clinton is in the lead right now in all states except Vermont (which Obama pretty much has in the bag). I can't say I'm at all disappointed. I think Clinton is what we need right now and I really hope these numbers stay this way (or continue to improve in Clinton's favor).

It's nice to see all this Obama-mania finally dying down some. I have no doubt that many Obama-supporters actually sat down, examined the issues, examined the candidates' voting records and experience, and then decided Obama was their man. And for those that did that, and still came to the conclusion they came to, great! But from where I'm sitting, it looks like a helluva lot of his supporters just got swept up into the momentum and excitement of his campaign, without really sitting down and figuring out WHY they were supporting him.

And it also irks the hell out of me that people keep making this huge deal about the fact that he's black, while brushing aside the fact that Clinton's a woman. First and foremost, we need a GOOD president, but if you're talking about underrepresented groups here, I'd say we need a woman president just as badly as we need a black president. Sexism is EVERYWHERE, it just doesn't get the attention that racism does.
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Post by Terastas »

RedEye wrote:That will insure McCain's election. Hillary is OLD Liberal stuff, and people are getting tired of "old" Liberal stuff.
Not really, seeing as McCain has the exact same problem. Hillary is a throwback to the Clinton era, but McCain is a repeat of Bush's old campaign promises. Regardless of whether he goes up against Obama or Clinton, it's going to come out just how much McCain has supported Bush.

Personally, I'd rather have a throwback to the Clinton times. The economy was good back then, remember?

Obama or Clinton, I promise you it will be a Democrat in 2009. George W. did exactly what his father did: He screwed up the economy with excessive funds for a war in Iraq, and in 2009, George W. is going to do the same thing his father did too: Leave the country a big mess for the Democrats to have to clean up. You heard me right: The Republicans don't want to win in 2009. Whatever meaning the Republicans had is gone; under the Bushes, the party became infested with crooked businessmen in a party whose policies are for sale to the highest bidder (we're facing record foreclosures while Exxon/Mobil's posting record profits; don't you dare try and tell me that's just a coincidence). All the Republicans under Bush are interested in now is clearing out of the White House and getting back into big business before the economy begins to recover.

The McCain campaign? That's just a song and dance to hide the fact that they're clearing out. I don't know if McCain is aware of such or he's a real republican that the reps. under Bush are letting piss his money away so they won't have to deal with him in the future (I distinguish between real Republicans and businessmen masquerading as Republicans), but either way, it's a hopeless campaign. Personally I'm surprised there are still people in the country willing to call themselves Republicans after everything Bush has done; I figured they'd have adopted some new terminology to distance themselves by now (like how "liberals" are now "progressives").

Kay, I'll shut up now. :grinp:
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Post by RedEye »

"Liberals" are about as "Progressive" as Aristocracy. You remember; the "better class" telling the "lower classes" what to do and how to think?

There is talk of restarting the Whig party: Whigs were essentially middle-class people who were practical in their politics. :o

I suspect the Republican party will be shedding the "Radical Right" and the "X-tian Fundies" if they lose this election, since they're the people who most supported Bush last election. :P

Meanwhile, the Democrats seem to have heard the warnings and while Billary still has some fight left, Obama seems destined to get the nod of the Party in their convention.
Obama is likely to be President. :roll:

And so it goes... :lol: :evil:
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Post by Renorei »

RedEye wrote:"Liberals" are about as "Progressive" as Aristocracy. You remember; the "better class" telling the "lower classes" what to do and how to think?

Uhhh...HUH? In general, it seems (to me, at least) that Republicans are the ones who are most gung-ho about sticking their noses into other people's business and telling them how they can and can't live their lives. Abortion, marijuana, same-sex marriage, etc. On all of these issues at least, the Democrats are content to let people do as they wish, while the Republicans want to step in and control things.

What issues specifically were your referring to?
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Post by vrikasatma »

Lukas wrote:your a obama supporter, can you explain his voting record for me? i can't understand why he was voting that way
He can probably explain it better than I can, and if you've already decided he's not okay with you, then there's not much either of us can say.

However, I'll rise to the challenge...
I'm assuming you're referring to the article you linked to in your last post. I'll address that:
he was quoted in the July 27, 2004 Chicago Tribune as saying, “There's not that much difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage.
Barack is <i>not</i> anti-war. He's pro <i>wise</i> war. He didn't oppose the war in Afghanistan, and in the Iraq pullout he'd send a detachment there, where he (and I) believe we have a legitimate purpose. Inasmuch as that, he has a similar stance to that which President Bush <i>initially</i> appeared to have struck. Unfortunately Bush did the "take a shot at Saddam because he wanted to kill my Daddy" and took most of our forces into a war of choice in Iraq.
he was quoted in the July 27, 2004 Chicago Tribune as saying, “There's not that much difference between my position and George Bush's position at this stage.
So long as GWB stays in office, U.S. forces <i>will not</i> leave Iraq. No timeline, no withdrawal, stay the course. There's not enough of a Democratic majority to override any vetoes. In that light, we're in Iraq until January 20, 2009, and that's the long and short of it.
In the absence of a withdrawal, we have to make sure the troops are well-equipped, have medical care for their wounds, fed, and sheltered. I oppose the Iraq war but I <i>do not</i> support abandoning them and leaving them to their own devices. Senator Obama cares about the people, even the troops in harm's way — I'd say especially, since they didn't have a say, they were told the leave Afghanistan for Iraq and there it is.
By the way, my biggest outrage against the Iraq War is the incompetence and arrogance shown by the civilian contractors, aka mercs, who are not accountable to either the President nor the citizenry of the United States of America. They're stirring up more s*** than our troops are and wildcatting.

Universal healthcare:
Here's the big difference: Hillary wants to mandate health insurance — to the point of garnishing your wages, and she hasn't said a thing about how she'll lower health costs. Barack is working to use the numbers of our citizenry to negotiate <i>lower</i> costs of medicine, treatments, insurance, et al. In short, not a handout, but making them within the reach of every American <i>to get it themselves</i>. The practical difference: you can pay $400 a month for health insurance with exclusions of prior medical history and/or limitations of certain areas, or pay $175 a month for health insurance that covers <b>everything</b>, nobody turned away.

Onto the voting record...
It's been a long day and I'm starting to go cross-eyed with all this cutting and pasting, so forgive if I just give you a couple of the best links in terms of his voting record. There's some good stuff in there, rounding up stray nuclear devices and reforming campaign finance at the Illinois State and Federal levels being just two.

http://factcheck.barackobama.com/factch ... accomp.php

The Daily Kos has his legislative record on their blog but for some reason the page won't load on my computer. Here's a link to a page off Digg that goes to that blog:

http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/I_fou ... ate_Record

Summation: someone else asked me about his experience over Hillary's tonight. I said that Barack's introduced and passed legislation was of a higher quality ad effectiveness than that of Hillary's.

Another point I'd like to make...I talked with some people at a rally. They'd gone to the Senate chambre on the hill in Washington DC and sat in the gallery. When Hillary came into the room, they said, "It was like the parting of the Red Sea — nobody wanted to be near her. They all avoided her." When Barack came in, it was like a wolf pack rallying to the alpha: everyone wanted to shake his hand, talk with him. This is why I'm supporting him: he's a leader. People like him. The U.S. Presidential race is indeed a popularity contest: that's not going to change, so we might as well play the game.

Is there really an accurate test of what a Presidential candidate, who's not an incumbent, before he takes office? I've voted in six Presidential elections since I came of age and this is the first time the frontrunners have all been Senators. All the rest that got elected have been Governors: Carter, Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, Bush Jr., and the tendency is for the American people to choose a Governor for President. Going back over my lifetime, practically every President has been a Governor.

That aside...look at the man: he's young, intelligent, well-spoken, and people LIKE him. Can he lead? No doubt. The other thing is, Barack Obama is a uniter. There are moderate Republicans (Whigs?), there are Independents, as well as Democrats that are lending their support to his coalition. I said to a friend the other day, "The Cold War didn't end, it came here and divided Left against Right...the wall came down in Berlin but we dug a trench along the Idaho/Nevada/Arizona border, the borders of the Great Lake states, and New England." This, I think, is the "Change" this campaign is talking about. And frankly, I'm tired of this United States of Canada versus Jesusland dichotomy going on.

For that, if for no other reason, I believe that our best course is to elect Senator Barack Obama to be the 44th President of the <i><b>United</i></b> States of America.

[taking a breath]
Good night. I'm off to melatonin.
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Post by Lukas »

cool thanks for explaining it, Im supporting McCain but i would not mind at all if Obama won the election, thank you for the response vik , but in reality its not a sure fire win for the democrats, for teh simple fact that much of the electoral college will probable vote on party lines, remember having the popularity vote does not mean you win, Electoral votes is where it counts
despite bushes screw ups it Obama gets the primary(which i hope he does) and McCain gets the primary(which i thankfully know he will) it will be a close race
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Post by vrikasatma »

[Salutes to Lukas]

Alright, now I'm pissed (not at Lukas, though). I got wind of how Hillary won Ohio last night.
Ohio has an open primary, meaning anyone can vote for any candidate they like. The Republicans' worst nightmare is an Obama vs. McCain contest in November, so they bolted across party lines to vote for Hillary, knowing they're a bellwether state.

Personally, I think every state is a bellwether, especially this election cycle.

But what <i>really</i> chapped my a** was when Hillary's Ohio followers started up a "Yes We Can!" chant at her victory speech. Ironic that this went down in Columbus, which actually was one of the three or four counties that tipped for Obama.

Wyoming's coming up on Saturday! I think we have a few people on this board that are from there, be sure to get to your caucus sites and stand for democracy! If you don't know the whens and wheres, contact your secretary of state's office or the League of Women Voters.
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Post by Lukas »

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/po ... primaries/
good site to keep up with dates and states left over and current results
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Post by RedEye »

Renorei wrote:
RedEye wrote:"Liberals" are about as "Progressive" as Aristocracy. You remember; the "better class" telling the "lower classes" what to do and how to think?

Uhhh...HUH? In general, it seems (to me, at least) that Republicans are the ones who are most gung-ho about sticking their noses into other people's business and telling them how they can and can't live their lives. Abortion, marijuana, same-sex marriage, etc. On all of these issues at least, the Democrats are content to let people do as they wish, while the Republicans want to step in and control things.

What issues specifically were your referring to?
Shall we start with Hillary's health care proposition? Then the use of the Executive Order by her husband, when he was in power (more than Bush ever issued). The use of (documented) coercion to force people to adopt an anti-firearm position or lose their Federal assistance? The attempt by Bill C. to close nearly half the Federal Forest lands to the Public while charging them for their upkeep?
Let me know, I can go on for hours.
Essentially, they forgot they were the employees of the People, not their masters. Bush took their position and ran with it, hence what we have today.
The Republicans were little better (the impeachment) and tended to be under the control of the most repressive of the Ultra-Right wingers at the time. They will shed them after they no longer deliver winning elections; believe it.
Bottom line here: Both Parties stink of corruption and greed-for-more-power. They have lost sight of the fact that they are at best Service Industries for the Citizens; supposedly seeking the best and brightest for the position of the Chief Executive. They, like the Government they try to control, seek not to Serve but to Command; and that should really scare you, considering what the fruits of victory are: The single most powerful person on Earth under their philosophical control.
Ahhh...I'm running on; you get the picture by now, don'cha?
RedEye: The Wulf and writer who might really be a Kitsune...
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