After the Caucus: reaction and discussion in a polite manner

[vrikasatma]

Would like to add...

"Waco, Branch Davidian" for a memory jog. That happened on the Clintons' watch and at the behest of their Attorney General.

[MattSullivan]

Personally, I have no sympathy for the Waco idiots. They're the ones who chose to break the law and defy the police. What happens when a criminal does that on the streets?

THEY GET SHOT!

Those people had 60 or so days to surrender to the police, but no, they dragged it out, put their CHILDREN in danger, and did it all at the taxpayers expense!

NO...SYMPATHY....WHATEVER.

[vrikasatma]

I don't care about the adults but the kids suffered, and they had no say in the matter. Inasmuch as that, I consider Waco a tragedy and Janet Reno was complicit.

Waco also led to Oklahoma City, which was worse.

[MattSullivan]

Yeah. the kids suffered, but NOT because of the government. They suffered because the ADULTS put them there.

And while we're at it, why do we mourn only the kids? Adults are basically kids who survived childhood. Just because we grow up doesn't mean we are expendable ( not that I think you're implicating that, but EVERYONE always worries more about children than us grownups.

NOT FAIR :}

[Renorei]

Yeah. the kids suffered, but NOT because of the government. They suffered because the ADULTS put them there.

And while we're at it, why do we mourn only the kids? Adults are basically kids who survived childhood. Just because we grow up doesn't mean we are expendable ( not that I think you're implicating that, but EVERYONE always worries more about children than us grownups.

NOT FAIR :}

I, personally, don't think the lives of children are necessarily more valuable than those of adults.


I think the difference here is that the adults CHOSE to be there, while the kids DID NOT choose to be there. I do not, in general, consider adults "expendable"--but if they make really stupid decisions and put THEMSELVES in a situation where it is prudent to "expend" them for for public safety--well, that was THEIR choice. They didn't have to put themselves in that position.

But the kids? Well, they were just innocents along for the ride. That's the difference. That's why people are more likely to care about the kids than the adults.

[ravaged_warrior]

I think he means in general. If a tragedy involves children, a lot of people will look at it as even worse because of it, or will focus on how awful it is that children were involved. Arguments could be made saying that it is more of a tragedy, but I personally think that a tragedy is a tragedy, and trying to rank tragedies based on anything is not the way to go about mourning.

[vrikasatma]

I personally think that a tragedy is a tragedy, and trying to rank tragedies based on anything is not the way to go about mourning.

[nodding] Agreed, underlined. One death is a tragedy, a million is an unspeakable tragedy. Mourning shouldn't be a game of brinkmanship.

And Renorei pegged it when she pointed out that adults can choose to act and believe a certain way, but children have to follow the adults' lead whether it be out of coercion or because they don't know different. A lot of those children were conceived and born at the compound and had never left. I feel they were doubly-victimized, by the adults that were supposed to take care of them, and by the government forces that hammered them with blasting music, gunfire, verbal abuse and finally blew their home up.

David Koresh and the other adults that followed him chose their path, and chose to defy the government who also went overboard.

And yeah, Matt has a point with "Not Fair." None of it was.

Let's let that particular discussion go there, shall we? Red Eye asked us to keep the discussion civil and respectful.

[Terastas]

I agree regarding the children in Waco in that the fault lies with the people that put them in danger, not the government in that instance. However, I'd like to point out that it's because children are virtually unaccountable for their actions and whereabouts that they are often mentioned among tragedy because there is absolutely no question that they were innocent victims; they couldn't have been responsible for the attack nor could they have done anything to warrant being targets. Sometimes when there's a shooting, you find out later that half the victims were members of rival gangs, and when there's a shooting or a bombing where the culprit is killed, more often than not the media counts him in the total death toll.

When the news breaks, the media rarely knows the full story: they only know what happened, where it happened, and how many are dead. Children are the only victims the media can immediately confirm to be civilian casualties. I can't speak for the whole country, but where I'm from, the news usually gives a brief bio of any/all victims of the attack as soon as their names are released. It's not that the deaths of children are more tragic: it's just that the tragedy in it is immediately evident.