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No not as some cheesy XXX horror. but as a basic concept.

seeing as the transformation can cause mass increase, brain changes, spine growth, and other extreme changes, whose to say that one in a thousand or so doesn't get a "glitch" in the transformation and when they change becomes a werebeast that is the opposite gender of their human form. After all the difference between male and female on the genetic level is a branch of a chromosom (as well as size) and hormones, which given how much a werebeast transformation must affect these things its not a real stretch that a "glitch" may cause such a change.

That's certainly something I would have never thought about on my own.

Its kinda like The Golden Compass where your demon was the opposite sex but its still you.

MoonKit wrote:That's certainly something I would have never thought about on my own.

Its kinda like The Golden Compass where your demon was the opposite sex but its still you.

Fate stay night did that with the spirit heroes being the opposite gender.

your wild side being the opposite gender.

guess I could also compare this to MAZE where at night she would become a perverted guy.

Well. . . My take on shapeshifting is that it doesn't turn one thing into another, but alters the already existing anatomy to more closely resemble the other. In other words, even though a werewolf may resemble a wolf in every sense of the word, it is still not a real wolf. The parts may look different, but it's still the same set of parts they had to begin with.

A change in gender, however, would involve changing parts. Maybe a shapechange could result in different anatomy that resembles the opposite gender, but not the real thing. That's my take anyway.

Terastas wrote:Well. . . My take on shapeshifting is that it doesn't turn one thing into another, but alters the already existing anatomy to more closely resemble the other. In other words, even though a werewolf may resemble a wolf in every sense of the word, it is still not a real wolf. The parts may look different, but it's still the same set of parts they had to begin with.

A change in gender, however, would involve changing parts. Maybe a shapechange could result in different anatomy that resembles the opposite gender, but not the real thing. That's my take anyway.

Yeah.

While the idea is a bit orginal and worth a good laugh (can you imagine that scene? "Why do I have...ohmygod!") I don't see it working as a full out total change to the other sex. That'd require messing with lots of hormones and such. A bit much when the whole "I'ma turning in a wolf-thing!" is already going on.

Uh-Oh. :}

Terastas wrote:Well. . . My take on shapeshifting is that it doesn't turn one thing into another, but alters the already existing anatomy to more closely resemble the other. In other words, even though a werewolf may resemble a wolf in every sense of the word, it is still not a real wolf. The parts may look different, but it's still the same set of parts they had to begin with.

A change in gender, however, would involve changing parts. Maybe a shapechange could result in different anatomy that resembles the opposite gender, but not the real thing. That's my take anyway.

actually a change in gender is less than a change to look like a wolf,

testies invert to ovaries, penis inverts, expands and connects to walls to form the vaginal pathway and urinary tract, beasts expand with fat and mammary glands devlop, slight (compared to the extreme of a wolf like form) bone change. Especially easier if we go with the "takes on the apperance but doesn't really become" one angle of shape changing. Then its like self induced sex change surgery, only at the cellular level.
In fact the hormones are already there for most of this change, its just a change in levels could cause most the outward apperances.

Its actually from a biological standpoint less of a stretch than turning into a wolf looking creature.

This is getting far to graphic. I understand that you're trying to look at a new angle to shape shifting, but please remember there are minors in this forum. Try keeping this basic, without getting into the nasty details.

Nothing they havent learned in Health class

On Topic: Ewwwwww!

Yeah that'd definitely be an "huh what this OHMYGOD!" moment...

Kaebora wrote:This is getting far to graphic. I understand that you're trying to look at a new angle to shape shifting, but please remember there are minors in this forum. Try keeping this basic, without getting into the nasty details.

I tried to keep the termonology fit for a health class.
That and I was obligated to point these out as terastas stated that a gender change was more complex than a werebeast change, which simply isn't the case from a biological stand point (especially if its only outward apperance) as something as minor as a hormone imbalance can make a man appear feminine or a woman appear masculine. a few more small chromosomal changes and you end up with the opposite gender, far less than what would be needed on those levels for a person to reshape into a larger beast like form.

Could be possible if the other side is a different gender. Its not usual, but possible I believe.

That would take the Shift (already an energy-intensive action) and add even more energy demand to it.

Yeah: the shift happens, and the gender changes and the resulting product ran out of energy and is therefore dead.

Unless you factor in the chaotic actor called Magic, you run out of "go" somewhere in the Neuter zone.

Everyone who want's to be a Were'-whatver that is genderless and neuter, stand up. Thought so.

I do agree that changing from one gender to another would be simpler than changing from one SPECIES to another--but I honestly doubt any chromosomal changes would take place. There is such a thing as "women" who have one X chromosome and one Y. On a genetic level, they are men, but physically, they are completely female. We talked about a woman like this in one of my biology classes. They even have all the internal organs and such. The only thing is, they can't reproduce because somehow the creation of new embryos just doesn't work right (though they can still have sex and everything).

If there were any sort of were-transformation that resulted in a "gender change" I'd imagine the effects would be like this--physically, the individual appears to be of the opposite gender, but on a chromosomal level, they aren't.

RedEye wrote:That would take the Shift (already an energy-intensive action) and add even more energy demand to it.

Yeah: the shift happens, and the gender changes and the resulting product ran out of energy and is therefore dead.

Unless you factor in the chaotic actor called Magic, you run out of "go" somewhere in the Neuter zone.

Everyone who want's to be a Were'-whatver that is genderless and neuter, stand up. Thought so.

I fail to see why they would run out of energy. the werebeast transformation is intense enough that in the physical world such a thing would be fatal regardless, so suspension of disbelief is in order. However a gender change with it wouldn't be anymore taxing on the body than the rest of the transformation, seeing as how during the shift the reproductive organs and such would change regardless, into those of the beast in question's relative size and shape.

so it doesn't make sense that it would require anymore energy than the initial shift.

honestly I feel a resistance based on preference only and not physical or magical laws. After all in magic a person can become a mouse or a giant so its not even an issue to change gender. as for the quantum biological change of the werebeast, well as i stated its only a slight change nothing more than what is already happening.

as a concept, plausable. as a working idea, hard to be taken serious, after all as my test of a thread here is clearly showing the resistance to the concept based soley on cultural or personal bias rather than seeing it as a mere-twist that could make the main character's life in a story just that more difficult.
guess the concept would be delegated to comedy rather than what the intended target would be. a shame,imagine the drama of turning into a werewolf that was the opposite gender. I was going to add an addition to this glitch where when they turn human again they would remain this opposite gender until they changed again, and then became the opposite of that gender and back again.
the conflict and havok this would play on their life especially if they were stuck with the lunar cycle full moon version of the werewolf, having to spend a month as a woman from a man, can't go to work, no ID as that person, ect... and back again after a month, ontop of turning into a beast once a month.

RedEye wrote:Everyone who want's to be a Were'-whatver that is genderless and neuter, stand up.

*stands up and feels all the eyes on him*

What? That would solve the "pants ripping = indecency" problem, wouldn't it?


As for gender changes. . . Crud, how do I keep this PG. . . Well, the one I'm having the biggest problem comprehending is the change in "bits," specifically the way it "inverts and splits open" the way you described. Something I'm having an even harder time with is the reverse: how you would go from female to male. Explaining how a shapechange could make a part of the body split open or combine back together would be a hard sell.

Terastas wrote:

RedEye wrote:Everyone who want's to be a Were'-whatver that is genderless and neuter, stand up.

*stands up and feels all the eyes on him*

What? That would solve the "pants ripping = indecency" problem, wouldn't it?


As for gender changes. . . Crud, how do I keep this PG. . . Well, the one I'm having the biggest problem comprehending is the change in "bits," specifically the way it "inverts and splits open" the way you described. Something I'm having an even harder time with is the reverse: how you would go from female to male. Explaining how a shapechange could make a part of the body split open or combine back together would be a hard sell.

this I can explaine in better detail, but it seems the admins want this topic PG, a better way would be to just look at a comparitive anatomy between men and women, the parts are basically the same (in the most generic sense) only arranged very differently for a different purpose. or it could all just be assimulated and the base material re-arranged and grown, easier if its not functional. The breasts would be the easiest part to change, far easier than spine elongation or skull transformations from man to beast. hip change is less complex than the skull too.

as for split open and come back together a hard sell. These are werebeasts were talking about, we have teeth growth, the jaw elongating, the skull reforming, the feet would undergo more complex bone changes than the hips, increase of muscle mass, and massive sensory changes in the muzzle, in some cases like a were-cat growing organs like the Jacobson's organ that wasn't even there before in the human form. So reshaping existing organs into a new configuration is simple (by comparison).

heck the digestive track between a human and a carnivore are vastly different as well.
(on this thought, has there been a thread yet about how much change the internal organs go through during a transformation. As impressive as the external looks are, what has to go on inside is much more intense by comparison).

That's a bit of a "glitch," as it would involve the genetic makeup to go way out of its way.

I'm just looking at this topic in utter amusement.

Seems like an interesting idea. I can see it happening in some cases.

Terastas wrote:What? That would solve the "pants ripping = indecency" problem, wouldn't it?

Indeed.

okay, considering quantum bio-shifting and magic are both possible uses for transformations, any limitation discussions are pointless (fantasy is fantasy after all)

Now ask youself, what if this "glitch" happened to you ontop of already becoming a werebeast. how would you react? what additional adjustments would need to be made? how much more stress is this on someone's life?

and also how would other werebeasts react?

A lot of that depends on the person. You could get reactions everywhere from "OMG YAY!" to "Ewww, I have girl parts." Other were's reactions would vary as well. Most likely outcome: "What the heck...?!"

As for adjustments, well, that depends on whether or not said were was stuck like that.

It's not that much of a stretch the way I see it. It may be a bit awkward, but every person has a mental counterpart of the opposite gender- anima/animus.
But then if we're going into the realm of magic turning one thing into another, then it's a non-issue. Anything can exist in the realm of non-existence.

I can see what you mean and I can see it being possible but what would be the chances of something like that happening

True, in spite of my previous statement. Changing gender within species is a lot less work than changing species. Heck, we can simulate some of that shift surgically today, though surgical transgenders lose reproductive capabilities.

I posted elsewhere an essay regarding social pressures and the male gender role. For reasons that it explains, I think that males would feel very uncomfortable becoming female, even in the form of another animal. Granted, I'm sure ladies would not exactly usually have an easy time losing their femininity and gaining something else while shifted either. In both genders' cases, it would add even more shock to something that already would destroy one's sense of reality anyway.

In both hard and soft magic systems, it's an easy "glitch" to have. In a hard-biology model, though, having it happen by accident would be at least a little more uphill. But, it's not completely inconceivable.

Human males are male because of the Y chromosome. More specifically, we guys are guys because of "testes determining factor," a hormone produced by a gene on the Y. There are cases of women who are genetically men, but whose Y chromosomes don't produce working TDF genes, and as a result, embryonic development without the hormone followed the default pathway, to be female. Having grown up looking like women, they're raised to think like women and have female identities, so learning of this genetic disorder comes as a bit of a shock.

Correct me if I'm wrong k. So what your saying is that most people would have a hard time accepting the fact that they just changed gender so abruptly and that while it may be possible it would be highly unlikely.