Teeth and Bones - things that don't add up

[Arania]

In most respects, humans and canines aren't ALL that different anatomically speaking. We're both "higher" order mammals, our common ancestors going back to small rat or shrew like creatures. We're mammalian, most of the bones in our body have an equivalent in a canine, albeit the specific morphology might be changed to better suit different methods of locomotion and other adaptations to the environment. And contrary to many layman beliefs, humans DO even have vestigial tails - the bones have fused and tucked under, and are internal (though during development, fetuses have an actual external tail for a short period of time, and sometimes people are even still born with one).

BUT~ I digress. Regardless, there are a few inconsistencies between what bones humans and wolves possess. As this movie is going for a very anatomical and relatively "scientific" progress on how one transforms to another, I'm curious as to how these will be addressed (or IF they will be - depends on how detailed the transformation sequences will be).

Being an anthropologist, I know that the primary identifying feature between species (and identifying an ape or hominid) tends to be teeth (as they are more archaeologically durable than skulls, and the tooth difference between different animals can be very identifying.
Specifically, humans and apes have adapted to have fewer teeth (due to our lack of muzzles and the food we eat not requiring as many) as most other mammals.
Essentially, anthropologists number the teeth by a quarter of the mouth (take half of your upper or lower teeth, as teeth are symmetrical).
In a quarter of our dentition, humans have 2 incisors, 1 canine, 2 premolars, and 3 molars (assuming you haven't had your wisdom teeth removed) on top and on bottom. (multiply that by four to get the total number of teeth - a total of 32 teeth).
(People teeth - and a good comparison: http://www.psionica.co.uk/biology/KS4Biology/dent.htm )
Canines, however, have the mammalian standard of -3- incisors, 1 canine, 4 premolars, and then 2 molars on top/3 on bottom- a total of 42 teeth.
( Wolfie teeth: http://www.naturalworlds.org/wolf/moret ... _skull.htm )

So... this begs the question... how does this translate in a shift? Might werewolves in wolf form have fewer teeth? I could see that - and be one possibly identifying freature between werewolf in wolf-form and a normal wolf (of course, walking up to a potential werewolf and prying his jaws open to see if they are is probably not the smartest thing in the world to do ^_~).
Or maybe do new teeth grow in during the shift - but if they do, do they fall out afterwards? Absorb into the jaw? Do existing teeth "split" to form more?

~*~
Okay, so other than teeth - the differences that also spring to mind is the big toe - not a huge deal when you think about it - but I'm a dork and think too hard about these things, and you guys are probably the only other ones who care ^_~. Essentially, canines have 5 digits on their front feet - the "thumb" being the smaller dewclaws that many dog owners have remved when they're young because the claws can become ingrown. But that's the doggie equivalent of a thumb.
(Doggie dewclaw: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/imag ... wclaw2.jpg )

However, on the hind legs, they've adapted to completely negate the 5th digit, the equivalent of our big toe. So! On werewolves, what happens to those bones? Do werewolves have dewclaws on their hind feet? I like to think yes - and that being another identifying feature in wolf-form.

[Terastas]

Hmm... Well, for the teeth, it could really go plenty of different ways. Compared to the cheekbones elongating into a muzzle, growing a few extra teeth wouldn't be all that unusual. It's open to debate, but ultimately still a matter of creative preference in the end.

As for the big toe... Well, we've already determined that the skeleton undergoes some pretty serious changes during the shift, so I think we can rule out the werewolf retaining his toe in full wolf form. However, while I don't think they would retain the full toe, I don't think the bones in their big toe would just go away either. What I imagine them retaining is... The best term I could think of would be "evolutionary leftover-" a small bone that once had a function but is now obselete and in the process of being "evolved out of," sort of like the human tailbone. A werewolf in full wolf form might retain just enough of his big toe that it would appear on an X-ray, but not in his outer appearance.

[Aki]

I think new teeth would be created and then reabsorbed. Teeth falling out sounds a bit...weird.

Not to mention it leaves a trail.

People begin to wonder why teeth keep being found you know.

[Figarou]

I think new teeth would be created and then reabsorbed. Teeth falling out sounds a bit...weird.

Not to mention it leaves a trail.

People begin to wonder why teeth keep being found you know.

Human-- "Oh look!! I found another fang!!! Now I have enough to make my necklace!!"

[WolvenOne]

Well, if these teeth are designed to be temporary then they may, I dunno, biodegrade before much of a "trail," can be created.

I personally don't like the "reabsorbing" bit as it sounds, I dunno, wierd, but that's just a personal preference. On a related note, I've never liked the re-absorbing fur bit either, my experience with mammals is that they shed unnececery things like dead fur or baby-teeth and don't often "reabsorb" parts of thier body.

However, werewolves in and of themselves arn't terribly reaslitic to begin with so bending the rules a little further won't really hurt much.

[LoboLEO]

So... this begs the question... how does this translate in a shift? Might werewolves in wolf form have fewer teeth? I could see that - and be one possibly identifying freature between werewolf in wolf-form and a normal wolf (of course, walking up to a potential werewolf and prying his jaws open to see if they are is probably not the smartest thing in the world to do ^_~).
Or maybe do new teeth grow in during the shift - but if they do, do they fall out afterwards? Absorb into the jaw? Do existing teeth "split" to form more?

After drawing the process for long times I decided that extra teeths grow out as the muzzle grows...how is that?, well people often thinks that the muzzle grows with the teeths together...to the front leaving an space o the rear...isnt?. Well if you have a muzzle growing getting larger equally those spaces would appear between the teeths...and not in the rear I think, then new molars and teeths. And of course going back to human they should abosrb as you said.

~*~
Okay, so other than teeth - the differences that also spring to mind is the big toe - not a huge deal when you think about it - but I'm a dork and think too hard about these things, and you guys are probably the only other ones who care ^_~. Essentially, canines have 5 digits on their front feet - the "thumb" being the smaller dewclaws that many dog owners have remved when they're young because the claws can become ingrown. But that's the doggie equivalent of a thumb.
(Doggie dewclaw: http://www.vetmed.wsu.edu/ClientED/imag ... wclaw2.jpg )

Thats a tough one, why?...because werewolves looks odd with 5 digits on their feet(not cosidering the fifth as the dew claw) . And the big toe ...it's too big and close to the rest for become the dew claw... , and become absorb in this case would look to wierd in a tf.

So I'd say let's keep it where it's is and the other 3 following digits would icnrease in size to be similar between them...but not the smaller one, that would be the one to go back keeping its size , heh...so at the end acting as a possible dew claw but not going too way back,... but yes at the opposite way, why not?. And I dont think look to odd.

[Figarou]

hey...wait a second...wolves have a strong bite compared to a regular dog. And the teeth are fixed. Now if a werewolf's teeth is not fixed, wouldn't he have a weak bite?

[ABrownrigg]

For some reason I look to glue manufacture.. Boiling bones, turning them jelly like making gelatin and glues.

Perhaps something in the body during a transform that makes the teeth maliable. Then solidifies back into bone after the shift is over.. It would help if the person became very 'hot' during a tf.

Hmmm.. just throwing things out.

[Figarou]

For some reason I look to glue manufacture.. Boiling bones, turning them jelly like making gelatin and glues.

Perhaps something in the body during a transform that makes the teeth maliable. Then solidifies back into bone after the shift is over.. It would help if the person became very 'hot' during a tf.

Hmmm.. just throwing things out.

Hmmmmm.........makes me wonder if the topics we come up with has already been discuss and taken care of at your end.

[WolvenOne]

Well for movie purposes it probably doesn't matter which way you go. I mean, teeth falling out might be an interesting effect but reabsorbtion would probably be easier.

Whether it's realistic or not, probably doesn't matter, as breaking the law of realism will have to occur no matter which direction you go in.

[Arania]

Personally, I never much cared for the "shedding" idea - be it fur/hair, teeth or fingernails - I can understand the logistics of it - especially given how mammals work - but I don't know - for some reason I guess growing a pelt of fur, and then shedding it off every time one changed always seemed less like it was part of the individual - even though I know how stupid that sounds. And in a way it's the same with the teeth.

Given that werewolves aren't exactly wolves - and from what I know wouldn't be able to reproduce with them either (would they? I don't know - depends on the mythos I guess) - then I wouldnt' see a problem with some anatomical differences - such as dewclaws on the hind feet. I do personally like the big toe being the dewclaw (shriveling to some point - because evolutionarily speaking it's the big toe that canines lack, and the thumb on the front paws that is the dew claw. Having the little toe be the dewclaw to me seems like a device that isn't as anatomically based. (And it looks strange to me seeing a dewclaw on the outer side of the foot).

I guess I prefer reabsorption personally to discarding excess when it comes to it - but that's purely aestetics, moreso than anatomical ability.

Abrownrigg - unfortunately, teeth are one of those materials that are HARD to break down - when people are burned, teeth remain, when human ancestral remains are found - it's usually the teeth that you find - the enamel is much harder and sturdier than normal bone. You'd have to get literally thousands of degrees to melt down teeth ^^; - it's one reason cremation is so expensive.

[WolvenOne]

aesteticly speaking I'm not a big fan of "shedding fur," either. Reabsorbtion doesn't make sense but it's more visually pleasing I must say.

One plus about shedding teeth though, you would NEVER need to worry about caveties.

"Oh, no biggie, I'll be getting a new pair at the end of the month anyway." "Huh?"

[Silverclaw]

I think that new teeth would grow as the muzzle pushes out. Then they reabsorb or something when shifting back. I dont really like the idea of fangs falling out of a WWs head. Get lots of visits from the Tooth Fariy

And I thought that dogs and wolves did not have dew claws on their hind legs. Forelegs, yes. It looks weird, I'm pretty sure dewclaws on hind legs is a no-no. Big toe would just shrivel away to nothing when shifting.

[Vuldari]

Based on what has allready been said, and my own opinion...

I think a werewolf would just have fewer teeth, (retaining the average number for a human) and not bother with growing and reabsorbing new ones with each shift. So their teeth would be a little more spaced out than a natural wolves teeth...so what?

On the big toe...having it sort of shrivel up and hide on the hind foot like a "dewclaw" while in wolf form, (though not completely dissapear), would make sense to me. Wolves have a four Toe footprint. Unless someone can make a five toed Wolfish foot model that looks good to use a reference, sticking with the four-toe foot would be best. (Though, as Arania mentioned...Isn't the dewclaw supposed to be on the "inside" edge of the foot, and not the "outside" edge? That is the side that thumbs and big-toes are on.)

[LoboLEO]

Yeah I think you're right..i just went through a realistic way of thinking... werewolves need more teeths for eat the ammoun of feed and meat they could get..., but thats a detail that will have no big deal on big screen. I suppouse the normal thing will see the teeths going front as the muzzle grows...so you'll never know if the ww grows more teeth on the rear or not.

The logical stuff with fur...should be shedding too going back to human, but the esthetic way of the film it's first than mere suggestionof what should be realistic or not.. and the sames goes for the feet. ...the big toe can actually become the dew claw, its just need to look right and not too odd.

[Apokryltaros]

I agree...
Rather than have the big toe shrink, dissappear or fall off, it would make sense to become a dewclaw...
As for teeth, my opinion is that werewolves have the same number of teeth as humans, but, when they assume either wolf or gestalt form, the teeth enlarge.

[WolvenOne]

On the topic of teeth, if it's really a problem to feed I would imagine that a werewolf would simply have a few teeth that're shaped in a way as to act like two. There's already a couple of these kinds of teeth in cannines as far as I can tell so it's not a huge stretch.

[Scott Gardener]

I'm a member of the 42 teeth camp. (OK, I'll say it. I know you're thinking it. Life, the universe, and everything!) Even if my own werewolves aren't technically wolves, they do a good job looking the part.

Teeth are indeed probably the hardest part of transformation, and it would involve some of the biggest feats of biomolecular engineering to pull off. Even if you don't gain or lose teeth, you still have to change their size quite a bit, so if you're kind of forced to do that anyway, why not go the extra distance?

Human incisors are actually larger than wolf incisors. They'd have to be broken down. The best way I could see it would be from the inside, by some physiologic process unique to werewolves (that is, neither normal humans nor normal wolves can do this), as the pulp drives some form of osteolytic structures into the dentel and enamel. Furthermore, the four upper and four lower incisors would transform into six canine ones.

The cupids are the notorious part of dental lycanthropology; these would grow out, but might have to be split with the same osteolytic structures and then regrown.

The molars and human premolars are in fact fusions of more than one tooth. The crown of a molar represents a structure made up of various amounts, typically four seperate teeth. In fact, if you look in a human mouth, we have in essence two rows of teeth from the bicuspids back. These teeth roots correspond with canine teeth roots to a certain point, but I believe we run out towards the back before wolves do.

To that end, the inner half of the premolars would get lost altogether, even though the total amount of teeth is going up. The extra calcium will certainly get used. Maybe the residual pulp can hide out in a state resembling compressed stem cells.

I'm a bit of a champion of homologous structures--that is, I see the big toe disappearing (or in some cases maybe forming a dew claw, especially if in Gestalt rather than wolf form), not the fifth toe. Just because it's convenient doesn't mean it's what nature would do. (Granted, my own werewolves aren't naturally occurring, but I'm a sucker for comparative anatomy.)

The wolf's first molars are homologous with the human third molars. The canine third and fourth premolars correspond with first and second human molars. Like the human first premolars, the inner rows would be reabsorbed.

That means, the muzzle aside from stretching evenly, also would grow from the back, generating additional molars. Which means that if you had your wisdom teeth removed and you get lycanthropy, you would end up getting them back all over again, along with the clusters of cells that would crank out even more.

[outwarddoodles]

Well, if people want reasorbing tails (Though it may be easeir if it just, say, fell off.) I'd thing they could somehow do that to some teeth too. Quite frankly its one thing to grow, and another thing to shrink as so.

For the foot, I'd imagine the toe would move back and gorw smaller and out of the way.

[Set]

And I thought that dogs and wolves did not have dew claws on their hind legs. Forelegs, yes. It looks weird, I'm pretty sure dewclaws on hind legs is a no-no.

*ahem* DEWCLAWS! As a dog owner myself, I can tell you that dogs do indeed have dew claws on their hind legs. (Didn't I mention this on another topic somewhere?) It depends on the individual dog. Toby, the father of the pups I have, has dew claws on his hind legs. When the puppies were born some of them didn't have dew claws. The rest had them on either the front or hind legs, but not both. It's possible for a canine to have dew claws on both the front and hind legs, it just didn't happen with the last litter of pups though.

Big toe would just shrivel away to nothing when shifting.

No, no it wouldn't.

[WolvenOne]

I should note, humans have tails they're simply so short that the don't form the outward appearence of a tail. Thus "falling off," wouldn't make much sense, more likely it'd be growth and then reabsorbtion. I know reabsorbtion is wierd but it's the only thing that works in this case.

[Arania]

Reilune - Odd - I've never heard of a canine with dewclaws on the hind feet 0.o

And *nods* outward doodles - the main difference is that humans have the skeletal makeup for a tail - all the bones are there, just fused and tucked. The points here are actual bones that are present in one species but not the other.

I actually agree with LoboLeo - I don't think that a werewolf needs to look IDENTICAL to a wolf in wolf-form - I actually think it would be kind of neat to have a few very subtle differences - but not enough that anyone shy of a wolf expert could pick out. As far as NEEDING more teeth - wolves tend to, well, wolf their food down. They use their sharp incisors to tear off pieces of meat and then generally swallow the chunks whole - they rarely actually chew their food. Their jaws aren't built for it. They can't shift their jaws laterally like we can, just up and down. The problem with showing this visually is that if, in the movie, they use real wolves to depict werewolve in wolf form - if they snarl you can easily count the incisors - six instead of four.
Barring keeping the same number of teeth, "splitting teeth" as Scott suggested isn't a bad idea. But I dont' see a problem in teeth getting smaller, as canines would have to get larger from human form to wolf form, and then shrink back when reverting to human form.

[Silverclaw]

Big toe would just shrivel away to nothing when shifting.

No, no it wouldn't.

What, have you transformed then?

I never seen a dog with dewclaws on their hindlegs either. But I'll take your word on it. I personaly would like the WW designs to not have dewclaw on their back legs. Just seems out of place to me. IMHO of corse. If they must be there though, it should be on the inside of the legs, not facing outward.

[Kzinistzerg]

I figure you would have dewclaws. as for teeth, i figure they would would go like:

with black being outline and ed being gum luine.

[Set]

Reilune - Odd - I've never heard of a canine with dewclaws on the hind feet 0.o

When I find the digital camera I'll take a picture for you to see. Usually dew claws are removed at birth, the vet just snips them off. It would be surgury to have them removed now. I just have to make sure I keep the nails trimmed.

(edit) Speaking of trimming, I just cut his nails and...well I never noticed before, but Toby has dew claws on his front legs too! I would've taken a picture but the batteries in the camera are dead. I'll do it when I get some new ones.