The Plague Approach

[Infinite_Path]

Okay, I recently read "World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War" and it made me realize something:

Zombies: bite to infect, are dumb as rocks, walk at a slow shamble, can't even get up a steep incline, and nearly overwhelm the human race.

Werewolves (gestalts assumed) : bite to infect, are just as smart as people, can outrun a human (maybe some vehicles), can scale anything a human can, and are generally found toeing the line as far as extinction is concerned.

What's up with that? Couldn't Weres just sort of hit and run their way through urban centers and such, and arrive at a massive majority within months?

[outwarddoodles]

Creating total choas is not exactly the best method for survival.


But yes, I HAVE considered this before. Properly done, I think a "let's turn everyone into werewolves -- conspiracy" novel/movie would be an excellent idea.

[Terastas]

Reasons why the zombie virus spreads faster than lycanthropy:

1) Mortality.
Werewolves are tough to kill, but they're still mortal. Zombies, on the other hand, are undead. Hitting one is easy, but killing one is a royal pain, and even then there isn't always a guarantee that it will stay dead.

2) The Incubation Period.
When someone is infected by a werewolf, they typically only demonstrate minor symptoms, if any at all, and only actually shift during the next full moon, and even then it's not entirely guaranteed that the new werewolf will survive that first shift. People bitten by zombies, however, typically become zombies themselves within the hour -- sometimes even in under a minute -- and there's no mortality ratio since zombies are dead anyway.

3) Method.
Claws, fangs, muscles, werewolves have many ways with which to kill someone, whereas zombies are just reanimated versions of the humans they used to be. What that means is that if a werewolf were to attack a large crowd, the only people that would become infected would be the people that survive, either because they got lucky or because the werewolf intentionally held back. A zombie, on the other hand, is unequipped to kill someone faster than the victim can become a zombie, and even if he could, zombies are undead, so even a dead victim that is killed could become a zombie, thus if a single zombie were to attack a large crowd, the end result would be a large crowd of zombies.

4) Mental Capacity.
Yes, zombies are near-brainless. They lack the capacity for tact and planning, but they also lack the capacity for reasoning and value. While werewolves can be secretive of their nature and selective of who they infect, zombies only have the urgency to feed and thus do nothing but seek out more victims.

5) Motivation.
As rational beings, not all werewolves can be expected to be like-minded. Zombies, on the other hand, are degenerated down to all but the most basic instincts, thus they are all of one mind and move in a swarm. Newly-made werewolves are still the same individuals they were before becoming infected whereas zombies automatically assimilate into the horde.

6) Endurance.
When was the last time you saw a zombie tire out and give up? Or the last time you saw the hero blow up a zombie and all the others hesitate and back away? Even if zombies do feel pain and are capable of recognizing when they're in danger or when something is futile, they are still outweighed by the urge to feed/kill. Werewolves will eventually retreat when pressed hard enough; zombies only quit when they're dead.

That's why.

[Anubis]

Reasons why the zombie virus spreads faster than lycanthropy:

1) Mortality.
Werewolves are tough to kill, but they're still mortal. Zombies, on the other hand, are undead. Hitting one is easy, but killing one is a royal pain, and even then there isn't always a guarantee that it will stay dead.

2) The Incubation Period.
When someone is infected by a werewolf, they typically only demonstrate minor symptoms, if any at all, and only actually shift during the next full moon, and even then it's not entirely guaranteed that the new werewolf will survive that first shift. People bitten by zombies, however, typically become zombies themselves within the hour -- sometimes even in under a minute -- and there's no mortality ratio since zombies are dead anyway.

3) Method.
Claws, fangs, muscles, werewolves have many ways with which to kill someone, whereas zombies are just reanimated versions of the humans they used to be. What that means is that if a werewolf were to attack a large crowd, the only people that would become infected would be the people that survive, either because they got lucky or because the werewolf intentionally held back. A zombie, on the other hand, is unequipped to kill someone faster than the victim can become a zombie, and even if he could, zombies are undead, so even a dead victim that is killed could become a zombie, thus if a single zombie were to attack a large crowd, the end result would be a large crowd of zombies.

4) Mental Capacity.
Yes, zombies are near-brainless. They lack the capacity for tact and planning, but they also lack the capacity for reasoning and value. While werewolves can be secretive of their nature and selective of who they infect, zombies only have the urgency to feed and thus do nothing but seek out more victims.

5) Motivation.
As rational beings, not all werewolves can be expected to be like-minded. Zombies, on the other hand, are degenerated down to all but the most basic instincts, thus they are all of one mind and move in a swarm. Newly-made werewolves are still the same individuals they were before becoming infected whereas zombies automatically assimilate into the horde.

6) Endurance.
When was the last time you saw a zombie tire out and give up? Or the last time you saw the hero blow up a zombie and all the others hesitate and back away? Even if zombies do feel pain and are capable of recognizing when they're in danger or when something is futile, they are still outweighed by the urge to feed/kill. Werewolves will eventually retreat when pressed hard enough; zombies only quit when they're dead.

That's why.

Think what OP had in mind was, if werewolves were more like zombies in a way. You know they are more like the old school beasts and you know kill every thing in sight, but don't transform back. quick incubation time etc.

BTW, you can kill a zombie, you shoot them is the head! Haven't you seen dawn of the dead (2004 remake), Land of the Dead, Day of the Dead, etc. Also they can be disabled by removing limbs or severing the spinal cord.

[Terastas]

Think what OP had in mind was, if werewolves were more like zombies in a way. You know they are more like the old school beasts and you know kill every thing in sight, but don't transform back. quick incubation time etc.

OK. Regarding the classic "kill until it's over" werewolf, there's two things still being overlooked, one that I mentioned, and one that I didn't. The first is that, like I said, only the survivors of werewolf attacks become werewolves, so if a werewolf's instinct was to "kill every thing in sight," the virus wouldn't pass on to many.

Secondly, the classic werewolves are more hunters and stalkers than outright killers. As such, they infect fewer individuals as a whole as well.

BTW, you can kill a zombie, you shoot them is the head! Haven't you seen dawn of the dead (2004 remake), Land of the Dead, Day of the Dead, etc. Also they can be disabled by removing limbs or severing the spinal cord.

More accurately, you have to shoot one through the spine and/or brain -- you can't kill one by piercing its cheeks or blasting its jaw off. While a zombie absolutely can be killed with just a single shot from a standard .45, most people have little to no skill in marksmanship and couldn't make that kind of shot, and the few that do have that kind of skill would still have to take some time to line up every individual shot, time which they probably don't have.

A phrase comes to mind regarding zombies: "A bee sting is an annoyance, but a thousand will kill you." Whether it's an uprising from the graveyard or a viral outbreak, there's typically already an army of zombies on the move before the movie even starts. Of all the zombie movies I've seen, I can only remember one that had an outbreak start with just one zombie, that being 28 Days Later, and even that's iffy since they had a bunch of monkeys infected with the "Rage" virus before it wound up infecting one of those PETA-types. It's got nothing to do with zombies being better than werewolves; it's just that there are always so many of them.

[Infinite_Path]

Reasons why the zombie virus spreads faster than lycanthropy:

1) Mortality.
Werewolves are tough to kill, but they're still mortal. Zombies, on the other hand, are undead. Hitting one is easy, but killing one is a royal pain, and even then there isn't always a guarantee that it will stay dead.

2) The Incubation Period.
When someone is infected by a werewolf, they typically only demonstrate minor symptoms, if any at all, and only actually shift during the next full moon, and even then it's not entirely guaranteed that the new werewolf will survive that first shift. People bitten by zombies, however, typically become zombies themselves within the hour -- sometimes even in under a minute -- and there's no mortality ratio since zombies are dead anyway.

3) Method.
Claws, fangs, muscles, werewolves have many ways with which to kill someone, whereas zombies are just reanimated versions of the humans they used to be. What that means is that if a werewolf were to attack a large crowd, the only people that would become infected would be the people that survive, either because they got lucky or because the werewolf intentionally held back. A zombie, on the other hand, is unequipped to kill someone faster than the victim can become a zombie, and even if he could, zombies are undead, so even a dead victim that is killed could become a zombie, thus if a single zombie were to attack a large crowd, the end result would be a large crowd of zombies.

4) Mental Capacity.
Yes, zombies are near-brainless. They lack the capacity for tact and planning, but they also lack the capacity for reasoning and value. While werewolves can be secretive of their nature and selective of who they infect, zombies only have the urgency to feed and thus do nothing but seek out more victims.

5) Motivation.
As rational beings, not all werewolves can be expected to be like-minded. Zombies, on the other hand, are degenerated down to all but the most basic instincts, thus they are all of one mind and move in a swarm. Newly-made werewolves are still the same individuals they were before becoming infected whereas zombies automatically assimilate into the horde.

6) Endurance.
When was the last time you saw a zombie tire out and give up? Or the last time you saw the hero blow up a zombie and all the others hesitate and back away? Even if zombies do feel pain and are capable of recognizing when they're in danger or when something is futile, they are still outweighed by the urge to feed/kill. Werewolves will eventually retreat when pressed hard enough; zombies only quit when they're dead.

That's why.

In response:

1)Mortality: Don't forget the greater agility of were's. Dodging can negate just as many bullets as durability.

2)Incubation period: The idea is to infect, not to turn right away. Also, the slower, milder symptoms, combined with the synchronised onset, might allow for a primer period where attacks are ascribed to a phantom "feral animal".

3)Method: This doesn't have to be an all out attack. Really, all that's needed is a bite, which can be accomplished by a charge through a crowded area, snapping as they bowl through. Or by nipping someone alone at night. All that's needed is a nick from their teeth, and they're good.

4)Mental capacity: The assumption is that this would be a plan of attack, so the were's would only be concerned with victims.In fact, since they are interesting in infecting, and not killing, they might be able to move through groups faster than zombies.

5)Motivation: Concerning the infectees, there's either hollywood syndrome, or the fact that they do not become a monster. If 75 turn one night, and find themselves still lucid, it leads to questions as to whether were's are really monsters. Maybe a huge PR turnaround results?

6)Endurance: Ahh, but "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day." Sure, they don't press like zombies, but this also means lower atrittion. Also, weres can flank, or otherwise bypass resistance, thus minimizing their need for endurance.

[Black Claw]

Maybe its the fact that humans have found our weakness and seem to not be able to find the zombies. The only way they know how to kill them is by shooting in the head or burn them. For us all they have to do is capture us in human form then and do an exorsism or just shoot us with a silver bullet. Plus, they know how to surpress the werewolf curse (or blessing if you consider it) by a plant.

[Set]

Plus, they know how to surpress the werewolf curse (or blessing if you consider it) by a plant.

That would be Wolfsbane, and it's not magical, it's poisonous. So if by "suppress" you mean "kill you dead" then yes.

[Terastas]

In response:

1)Mortality: Don't forget the greater agility of were's. Dodging can negate just as many bullets as durability.

Um. . . No, it doesn't. Dodging bullets isn't as easy as they make it look in The Matrix. A werewolf can take cover, but he can't dodge in the literal sense. A werewolf will also feel the pain of getting shot anywhere that would otherwise be nonfatal, so somebody fighting werewolves wouldn't be so dependent on getting that one fatal shot as they would be while fighting zombies.

2)Incubation period: The idea is to infect, not to turn right away. Also, the slower, milder symptoms, combined with the synchronised onset, might allow for a primer period where attacks are ascribed to a phantom "feral animal".

The incubation period could allow victims plenty of time to come to be identified, understood cured (if possible), restrained, or killed, either by themselves or by a third party. Even if a werewolf did intentionally give each of his victims only a minor injury to ensure infection, he still could not count on all of them becoming werewolves.

3)Method: This doesn't have to be an all out attack. Really, all that's needed is a bite, which can be accomplished by a charge through a crowded area, snapping as they bowl through. Or by nipping someone alone at night. All that's needed is a nick from their teeth, and they're good.

Like I said, a werewolf would have to hold back in order to ensure someone was infected, and in doing so, he'd have to take his time, pace himself and cut back on his numbers; for every one that he took the time to make sure was properly infected, that's another six or seven that will make it to the exit. He couldn't just parade on in and jump the closest person like a zombie would; if a werewolf wanted everyone present and accounted for to become a werewolf, that would take more planning than it would be worth.

4)Mental capacity: The assumption is that this would be a plan of attack, so the were's would only be concerned with victims. In fact, since they are interesting in infecting, and not killing, they might be able to move through groups faster than zombies.

You're forgetting the general populace's tendency to freak out and start shooting at the sight of strange looking creatures, especially ones bearing claws and fangs. The only way they could spread through a group that fast would be if they had the prearranged cooperation of every individual in question; one person screams "AHH!!! A werewolf bit me!!" and the whole thing blows wide open.

Zombies, on the other hand, are a swarm, and since it's so easy to become one, it doesn't matter how many are killed because their numbers get replenished as soon as the people fighting them run out of ammo.

5)Motivation: Concerning the infectees, there's either hollywood syndrome, or the fact that they do not become a monster. If 75 turn one night, and find themselves still lucid, it leads to questions as to whether were's are really monsters. Maybe a huge PR turnaround results?

True, but my point was that, as rational beings, even if it was the original werewolf's intention to create a lycanthropy outbreak, not everyone he infects would be inclined to infect people in turn.

Zombies don't bite to infect either; they just pass it on by doing the only thing that comes naturally.

6)Endurance: Ahh, but "He who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day." Sure, they don't press like zombies, but this also means lower atrittion. Also, weres can flank, or otherwise bypass resistance, thus minimizing their need for endurance.

It also means the people you were fighting will have time to rebuild, replenish and reevaluate their defenses before the next time. That's not the point though; my point was that a zombie attack is endless, and more often than not, limitless. Werewolves are tough, but they're still mortal and still have to manage their numbers wisely. Zombies, on the other hand, will keep coming no matter how many of them you kill; the battle only ends when either the humans retreat or somebody finally drops the bomb that kills every last one of them. Kill as many zombies as you want; all those dead bodies piling up are just going to attract more of them.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Let's not forget the occasional slip of the mind where you hesitate in killing zombies who were formerly your beloved.

[ericmetzger]

I don't think werewolves would be able to take over because not onnly is the incubation period too long but, if werewolves went on some kind of rampage then they would lose one of their biggest advantages: nobody believes in them. Also zombies never stop attacking whereas werewolves can only come out at night.

[Black Claw]

Unless you're like some of us who can change at will.

[Dreamer]

Okaaaay, ignoring Black Claw's delusions of lycanthropy, there's something you've all forgotten here. INstead of going on a rampage in a huge crowd where it's far more dangerous both towards the werewolve's secret and the werewolf population as a whole, what about lurking in the shadows, biting people one at a time, at a rate of, like, one a night and following them as the lycanthropy takes hold. It'd take longer, but it would probably be somewhat safer and cause less of a public outcry.

And as for the "Hollywood syndrome" thing, I don't really see that as happening unless the person is a closet psychopath who's only reason for restraint beforehand was society's rules. Instead I see them as either recognising their sapience and trying to deal with it, or being so horrified with the change, scared of themselves, and not knowing how to change back, that they run away and have to live on the fringes of society. These scenarios are about individuals without pack support mind you.

[Terastas]

Okaaaay, ignoring Black Claw's delusions of lycanthropy, there's something you've all forgotten here. INstead of going on a rampage in a huge crowd where it's far more dangerous both towards the werewolve's secret and the werewolf population as a whole, what about lurking in the shadows, biting people one at a time, at a rate of, like, one a night and following them as the lycanthropy takes hold. It'd take longer, but it would probably be somewhat safer and cause less of a public outcry.

And like I said, that would be holding back and cutting their numbers; to ensure a safe and proper infection of their targets, they would have to infect fewer people. Either way, the zombie infection spreads faster.

And as for the "Hollywood syndrome" thing, I don't really see that as happening unless the person is a closet psychopath who's only reason for restraint beforehand was society's rules. Instead I see them as either recognising their sapience and trying to deal with it, or being so horrified with the change, scared of themselves, and not knowing how to change back, that they run away and have to live on the fringes of society. These scenarios are about individuals without pack support mind you.

"Hollywood Syndrome" (as described in the Psychology thread) is when someone has a misconception about werewolves which they adamantly believe to the point that, should they become a werewolf, they develop a psychological complex which encourages the original misconception. It's people who are afraid of themselves that it would apply to, not people who were crazy to begin with.

[Black Claw]

that is true. And for you're comment Dreamer, it's not the physical means its the spiritual means you have to look at, that is what i was talking about.

[RedEye]

Another consideration is that initiating the Crossing Over isn't just making another Werewolf. It's making another empowered Person who may not be the best bet to be so empowered.
Werewolf Winos? Werewolf Panhandlers? Werewolf Politicians?

Puh-leeeze!

Oddly, I do see a reason for a bite-fest, though. Suppose that there is a disease that is almost 100% fatal spreading through a population. Werewolves are immune.
Then, were they to go on a bite-fest, there would be a reason. Maybe even lines and "please take a number, you will be bitten in your turn".
Suppose said Wulf's Smooth Family were at risk of this plague. Would the Wulf bite them to save them? Would that be considered a "moral act" or not?
It's not as simple as it seems.
Going fuzzy might save civilization...as we know it.
Or not...

[JoshuaMadoc]

Werewolf Politicians?

That role has more potential in importance than you might think.

[Terastas]

Another consideration is that initiating the Crossing Over isn't just making another Werewolf. It's making another empowered Person who may not be the best bet to be so empowered.
Werewolf Winos? Werewolf Panhandlers? Werewolf Politicians?

*nods* Like I said above, zombies become a swarm because they are deprived of even so much as a coherent thought and degenerated down to all but the most basic of instincts. Any sentient species could never swarm the way zombies do.

Oddly, I do see a reason for a bite-fest, though. Suppose that there is a disease that is almost 100% fatal spreading through a population. Werewolves are immune.
Then, were they to go on a bite-fest, there would be a reason. Maybe even lines and "please take a number, you will be bitten in your turn".
Suppose said Wulf's Smooth Family were at risk of this plague. Would the Wulf bite them to save them? Would that be considered a "moral act" or not?
It's not as simple as it seems.
Going fuzzy might save civilization...as we know it.
Or not...

That's actually the premises of the book I'm working on; during their last stand against the undead, the (presumed) last surviving humans allow themselves to become infected with lycanthropy to boost their immunity to the zombie virus.

There are, of course, such case scenarios where a werewolf could get the prearranged consent of everyone he intends to infect, but I think that's another story for another thread.

[Aki]

Okay, I recently read "World War Z: An Oral History of the Zombie War" and it made me realize something:

Zombies: bite to infect, are dumb as rocks, walk at a slow shamble, can't even get up a steep incline, and nearly overwhelm the human race.

Werewolves (gestalts assumed) : bite to infect, are just as smart as people, can outrun a human (maybe some vehicles), can scale anything a human can, and are generally found toeing the line as far as extinction is concerned.

What's up with that? Couldn't Weres just sort of hit and run their way through urban centers and such, and arrive at a massive majority within months?

Mr. Brook's book, while highly entertaining, makes a number of assumptions about how competant people are. Namely that the military can't beat a shambling foe when it has bombs, tanks, etc. Yet when they come back with an ancient semiauto rifle they suddenly turn into headshot machines, getting a headshot every time despite no one ever being that good of a marksman.

Any mildly competant military could ream a zombie horde in the rear. Machine gun emplacements, tank rushes (squishing works as well as a head shot), or just plain or bombs, since, y'know, the concussive force of explosion - if not the searing flame or sharpnel - will be sufficient to splatter zombie brainz.

BTW, you can kill a zombie, you shoot them is the head! Haven't you seen dawn of the dead (2004 remake),

As much as I enjoyed that film, the characters in it were even worse about headshots than WWZ. Not even the police officer should have been able to score hits to the skull so consistantly.

[Black Claw]

True, but what if the zombie virus somehow mixed with the werewolf DNA, THEN WHAT WOULD HAPPEN?

[Terastas]

True, but what if the zombie virus somehow mixed with the werewolf DNA, THEN WHAT WOULD HAPPEN?

Werewolf = Increased regeneration.
Zombie = Undead.

The two viruses do completely different things. One heals the host, the other kills and reanimates it; one is life, the other is death. Either the host would only contract one virus which would eliminate the presence of the other in the body, or the combined effects of both viruses would kill it.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Plus and Minus cancel each other out to zero.

Same thing (probably) applies.

[Black Claw]

BUT, what if it did mutate and it did somehow combine and create a new being. Are we then really screwed?

[RedEye]

Interesting idea: Zombie by day, Werewolf by night!

The potential for Angst is enormous!

[JoshuaMadoc]

BUT, what if it did mutate and it did somehow combine and create a new being. Are we then really screwed?

I hardly answer speculations *that* far.