werevolution

[Gray Wind]

Would lycanthropes evolve like us, and if they do, would it only effect their human/gestalt/wolf form or all of them?

I know, random question but still...

also at what rate?

[vrikasatma]

H'mm, good question.

What form did therianthropes take before the rise of Homo sapiens sapiens (my browser's spellcheck is underlining "sapiens," I can't believe the damn computer doesn't know that word)?

Were there Neanderthal weres? Homo erectus? Homo habilis? How far back do you go?

I believe that therianthropes are phenomenological, which is to say they are a magical race, like elves and angels. They came into being by extraordinary means. Which isn't to say that evolution doesn't apply. If you think about it, magic and evolution are both about change; therefore, evolution is the ultimate transmogrification spell ever cast...and it's still being cast.

That said, being a were would be a significant survival advantage to an organism. In the natural world, they wouldn't come into contact with silver very often; a wolf or tiger would be a better hunter than even Homo habilis with a spear, with better results proceeding from a lower degree of resource-taxing effort. Against a predator — let's say a bear or pride of lions, a were and their regenerative powers would have at least a shot in the dark at walking away from an antagonistic encounter...and a better chance of surviving a harsh winter. Let's face it, on an evolutionary scale, therianthropes would have a better chance of surviving than humans would.

So how come the Skunk-Monkeys wound up winning?

[RedEye]

While I'll agree there is some evolutionary activity with Werewolves, I'll also add "We can't find/see it".
Werewolves tend to be extremely robust and adaptable, and that is what slows evolution to a literal crawl.
Evolution usually means; "Who has the most offspring that live to reproduce themselves". As environments change, so do the creatures in those environments...very slowly. When an environment changes faster than an organism can reproduce competetively, said organism goes extinct.
Like Polar Bears.
Let me ask, how would one determine that a certain skull or femur came from a Werewolf? Then what would make it a precursor species? Then how would we know?
If a Were' is mirrored on the local Lupus varieties, how would we recognize a Dire Werewolf? or an Eoslupus Werewolf?
We aren't even sure if we ourselves are a mix of Homo Sapiens and Homo Neandertalis DNA, or are pure Homo Sapiens.
Let's say Modern Humans and Modern Werewolves came about at the same time. What happened to the precursors? Is Homo Sapiens var. Lupens a mix of earlier DNA or not?
Are we?

[Vagrant]

The free-forms of my tales have an interesting approach to this, simply because of the way they've acquired the gift (or curse, what have you). They're pretty much static usually and they don't evolve, this is because the system of their transformation is programmatic, based on nanotech.

However, those responsible for the nanotech have monkeyed about with what the Werewolves are capable of doing from time to time (via new work-sets for the nanotech), ramping them up and giving them new (but relevant) capabilities, simply to help them deal with any situation where they may be in danger, either from their environment or other predators.

I have no idea on magical Werewolves, so I've nothing to say there, really. I just don't feel confident enough to add anything...

As for lycanthropes based on a biological virus, evolution could occur through mutation of the viral strain, if the strain changes over time then it could change the properties of the lycanthropy as well. Through this means, a lycanthrope could "evolve", to use the term loosely.

If the lycanthrope is a natural creature that evolved by itself though, then natural evolution is going to be a part of its process, and it's going to evolve over time. The template is probably going to follow that of Wolves. So if Wolves end up with bony, razor-edged backs, Werewolves may as well.

[Scott Gardener]

Given sufficient time, evolution should happen. But, it takes millions of years, unless you cheat with genetic engineering.

I do have a race, the Lykosans, in one of my stories. They're wolf anthropomorphs from around the year 30,000, who lost their ability to shift to human or wolf. Humans and wolves are reduced to legends until they stumble across non-lycanthropic humans who recognize them, fix their wayward gene, and reawaken shifting abilities.

[SheAngel19]

Evolution mainly happens when the need to adapt with changing times and enviroment come along. Some creatures do not even evolve since they are already perfect for their purpose. I.e. Sharks, fish, most reptiles, and a few mammals like elk. I think magical creatures fall into this already adequate nature. Humans need to evolve so much because they are extremely flawed creatures that are meant to be prey and herd animals. Predators rarily need to evolve because they have already made their spot in the natural cycle of things. In truth Fae creatures are already a leap ahead of humans so why evolve further?

[Gevaudan]

Evolution mainly happens when the need to adapt with changing times and enviroment come along. Some creatures do not even evolve since they are already perfect for their purpose. I.e. Sharks, fish, most reptiles, and a few mammals like elk. I think magical creatures fall into this already adequate nature. Humans need to evolve so much because they are extremely flawed creatures that are meant to be prey and herd animals. Predators rarily need to evolve because they have already made their spot in the natural cycle of things. In truth Fae creatures are already a leap ahead of humans so why evolve further?

If humans are such flawed creatures, why did we evolve the capability for such things as intellect, consciousness, subjectivity, sapience, concepts, language, art, science, reasoning, and civilization? If anything, we're probably at the top (with the exception of werewolves, maybe). One thing that separates us from other predators is that we can use reasoning and restraint to preserve other creatures, including our own species. I'm not saying that we do it all the time, but the possibility is still there.

[SheAngel19]

Because otherwise humans are defenseless creatures, they have no fangs, claws, fur. Without intellect they would have died a looooong time ago. Personally i think that intellect and the dependence on modern day technology is a weakness in a way. I have seen people that would rather rip out an eye than go without a cellphone. My point is if they didn't evolve they would have died out.

[Vagrant]

I can't agree with that sentiment (that the dependence on technology is a weakness) though, and I think that Werewolves--possessing Human sapience, as they do--would also become reliant on Human technology and Sciences.

Why?

In many a Universe, one would say that a Werewolf's got to have Werewolf Doctors in order to survive, and there's technology to be found everywhere in medical Science, we wouldn't have half the clue what's going on inside our bodies without it, really.

The thing to consider is that our inventions, our brainchildren, our creations are a part of us; to a Human, technology is their fur.

[MoonKit]

On the subject of humanity and evolution...

I dont think humanity is going anywhere fast evolution wise. I think we can be listed with the sharks and alligators now. Not that we are strong or fast or have great camouflage. But evolution happens when a species can not adapt. Can not survive. And humans can adapt better than anything on the planet. To be fair, it's because of things like air conditioners and coats and cars and packaged meat...but to evolution, it's adapting all the same. Intellect and tool use is something to be very proud of and a rare skill that should be just as important as jaw force or speed. Whether it's a good thing or not, humanity has darn near dominated this planet...there's no need for evolution...we have made it far too easy for our kind to survive and flourish.

Human's are pretty defenseless without our intellect. But that's just our thing. Take teeth from a shark or power from an alligator and he's just as defenseless.


And on the subject of werewolves evolving...

I agree that there's not much need. If they have animal strength and senses and human intellect, how could they evolve to be much better?

[SheAngel19]

That was very well put. Despite humans having intellect, alot of their intellect doesn't apply to very many things in a constructive sense nowadays. My point was if you take away all the things that make humans a higher being you basically just have a hairless monkey. Human survival is based on technology now. I will accept that certain things like hospitals are strengths but you have to remember hospitals were not always around. Herbal healing was the primary before modern medicine. However if i was to go to a hospital, pick out a doctor, take him to the woods and say."Find me some ginseng." Odds are he is not going to know what he is looking for. Humans were once amazing creatures with astounding intellect. Now however it is just people improving upon what already exists rather than inventing something entirely new. Intellect is a humans strongest feature but it isn't as strong as it once was and it is deteriorating. On top of all this i wouldn't call it survival or domination either because the human lifespan is but a blink in the world. Think of it as a group of rats, they reproduce at an alarming rate, take over and consume their habitat until the overpopulation causes disease and health problems until they die out or kill each other in competition for survival. That is what humans are doing now. For all that humans have laws and heirarchy they are still just animals. Intellect and technology cannot alter instinct and nature no matter how much we think it can. Nature will always wipe away traces of humanity in time. Humans will eventually destroy themselves or die out if their already flawed system collapses. Sorry this is just my own observation from studying human and animal behaivor. And of course some opinion mixed in. I give reasonable opportunity that i can be wrong though, i just find it unlikely.

[Gevaudan]

That was very well put. Despite humans having intellect, alot of their intellect doesn't apply to very many things in a constructive sense nowadays. My point was if you take away all the things that make humans a higher being you basically just have a hairless monkey.

A hairless monkey with a large brain, that is. Intellect is extremely important for survival. If humans could never communicate their ideas, the most abstract concepts to grasp, then we probably would be hairless monkeys. This is what I mean: say, for example, you were an average Ice-age caveman trudging through the snow with your buddies, looking for food. You've seen absolutely nothing all day, and you're considering eating your friends when a mammoth appears in the blizzard. Quickly, you tell your friends to grab their weapons and circle it. You think about your plan for a second, and realize that the mammoth needs to be distracted. Jam the spear in it's hind leg, where it can't see you! As the mammoth rears up on its hind legs from the pain, you tell some of the hunters to aim for the underbelly. They understand and do so, toppling the creature. Knowing where the good meat is, you show the other cavemen where to cut on the mammoth (using their stone tools, of course).

That is how we can use our intellect for survival. Even in the modern era, lone people have been able to survive animal attacks with the least amount of human inventions available to them.

Intellect is a humans strongest feature but it isn't as strong as it once was and it is deteriorating. On top of all this i wouldn't call it survival or domination either because the human lifespan is but a blink in the world. Think of it as a group of rats, they reproduce at an alarming rate, take over and consume their habitat until the overpopulation causes disease and health problems until they die out or kill each other in competition for survival. That is what humans are doing now. For all that humans have laws and heirarchy they are still just animals. Intellect and technology cannot alter instinct and nature no matter how much we think it can. Nature will always wipe away traces of humanity in time. Humans will eventually destroy themselves or die out if their already flawed system collapses. Sorry this is just my own observation from studying human and animal behaivor. And of course some opinion mixed in. I give reasonable opportunity that i can be wrong though, i just find it unlikely.

I don't think intellect is deteriorating. Granted, there are lots of idiots out there in the world, but there's still evidence that we're getting better. There are people who work every waking minute of their life day and night to learn new things, to search for something never found, and to consider things from a different point of view. Besides, since we've already established that we can survive, what need is there to do anything else? The best we can do right now is try to revisit nature and try to coexist peacefully and respectfully.

I don't agree with the rat analogy either, because we are an altruistic species. We care about the suffering of others; hence medicine and an almost unlimited rate of overpopulation. I do agree that humans are animals, biologically speaking. We just manifest our instincts in different ways from other animals. Law and hierarchy are just as prevalent in nature as they are in society. And how, do you ask, do we know about the laws of nature? We learned them through observation.

Humans will eventually destroy themselves or die out if their already flawed system collapses. Sorry this is just my own observation from studying human and animal behaivor. And of course some opinion mixed in. I give reasonable opportunity that i can be wrong though, i just find it unlikely.

I find it much more likely that a small group of humans will wipe out everybody else. Also, even though a system is flawed, it's possible to solve those problems. I'm not saying we do that all the time, nor do we know all of the problems yet, but the fact that we can fix problems is pretty neat. Even some animals show signs of problem solving and creative-thinking skills. I think MythBusters proved that dolphins are somewhat altruistic.

I'm not trying to prove you wrong. I'm just trying to look at it from a more positive point of view, because there's still time to fix anything we've screwed up.

[SheAngel19]

Well i don't really agree, but to save from going back and forth forever lets just leave it as is. Agree to disagree if you will.

[RodolfoGurenaito]

All assuming evolution occurs. A case could be made for intelligent design.

[Gevaudan]

Well i don't really agree, but to save from going back and forth forever lets just leave it as is. Agree to disagree if you will.

Exactly. Let's agree to disagree. To be honest, the only reason I was arguing with you was because I haven't had a good argument in a while, and I wanted to see if I was up to snuff.

All assuming evolution occurs. A case could be made for intelligent design.

It could indeed, but it would most likely have to include a Wolfy Intelligent Designer.

While we're on the subject of religion, I'd like to mention an interesting fact. Exodus 20:4 states this: "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in earth beneath, or that is in water under the earth." This basically prevents idolatry, so...no images of humans, animals, fish, birds, critters, God, angels, etc. However, for all of the images this verse condemns, do you know which one is allowed? Anthropomorphic animals, like furries or werewolves, because technically, they don't exist in heaven or earth. In fact, Jews living in Germany in the 14th century found the loophole in this verse and illustrated their texts with bird-headed humans. Ingenious, eh?

[SheAngel19]

I hope i gave you a good debate stretch.

[Vagrant]

That's wonderful, it's always nice when a person/group of people find a positive loophole in something that they can exploit. It goes for all mythical creatures though, so they could just as easily have used Dragons, Centaurs, Manticores, or something as common. I'm really curious as to why they used bird-men, that's the kind of question I would like to go back and ask them. I can't help but be fascinated by the choice!

[Wingman]

Well, I know for certainly the owl is associated with wisdom, and the eagle with nobility, the hawk with strength or skill, and so forth. Maybe the artist just liked birds. You know why, cause bird bird bird, bird is the word, don't you know about the bird? Well everybody (even 14th century Jews) knows that the bird is the word.

[Vagrant]

You know why, cause bird bird bird, bird is the word, don't you know about the bird? Well everybody (even 14th century Jews) knows that the bird is the word.

Grrrrrr!

That's the last thing I needed to see before going to bed, if I have Peter in my dreams now, I'm going to blame you. You! It'll be all your fault!

<.<

I jest, of course. But with my mind, I might end up dreaming of that song.

On a more serious note, you're very probably right. You have some good reasoning there as to why they chose birds, they can be iconic after all, and they've never really had any negative stigma attached to them (which is interesting, probably due to the flight aspect, which Humans envied).

[Scott Gardener]

In the most pure scientific models, evolution is not planned; it's not actively striving for "better." It simply is the end result of the preproducers passing on whatever gives them the reproductive advantage. Generally, survival and reproduction are paired, but not always; something that allows one to reproduce more but kills one in the long run can evolve into place. Something that is seemingly "inferior" in one context can win out in another. And, things that are doing well tend not to change very much.

A review of some example life forms can illustrate the points:

Bacteria: are immortal and reproduce once every few hours. They have been around for several billion years. One might then ask why they aren't the dominant life form on Earth? In many respects, they are. One human organism has around a hundred trillion bacterial inhabitants, mostly in the large intestine but also on the skin, in the mouth, in the nasal passages and sinuses, and, well, all over. That is about 16-17 thousand times as many bacteria per person as there are humans on Earth. We're serving them, even when our immune system does their police work for them, killing off a few unruly sorts who get out of line.

Sharks: a good, solid design that has not changed much in 200 million years, surviving even the famous mass extinction that killed the dinosaurs. They haven't evolved much because they haven't needed to.

Dogs: a wide variety of subspecies have appeared over less than 10,000 years, largely because they've surrendered a lot of control of their mating and lifestyles to humans. As a result, the modern dog has a brain proportionally averaging 40% smaller than his ancestor and continues to show juvenile behavior into adulthood. Life expectancy though is on average almost double. Their ancestor continues to survive today, but has been either killed off or brought to the brink of extinction in most places once occupied, by the same human species that befriended his relative. The ancestor from whom dogs evolved were wolves.

Humans: a particularly aggressive primate that has come out of nowhere over the past two million years, with the particular species Homo sapiens showing up under 100,000 years ago. They've figured out ways of sharing information in coded languages so that one member can vicariously experience the knowledge of others, allowing for sophisticated social networking and the development of technologies. They're currently working through globalization and decontextualization, inventing art and religion along the way. Unfortunately, the species is changing so quickly that its design is a work in progress, having an unusually difficult childbirth and having terrible succeptability to low back problems because of the transition to an upright posture. More noteworthy is its growing realization that it has been making terrible mistakes, and that it's the natural enemy of nearly everyone, including itself. Their rapidly accelerating technology and social structures are changing far faster than their biology can keep up, though at their present rate, they could achieve biological and technological engineering capabilities that could allow them to assume active control over their own evolution in a manner far more sophisticated than what they did with dogs or tried to do with themselves when they mixed pseudoscience with religion and came up with eugenics.

Evolution happens. It doesn't plan ahead. It's kind of like the Joker in that regard. It responds to changes in the world, and whatever it causes, it in turn responds again.

[RedEye]

How did humans get here so fast?

Well, there is evolution, and the model that best supports our rapid rise to where we are is marginal competence and a high birth rate.
If just a few of us are competent to survive, and we all have a high reproductive drive, that could give us humanity as it is now.

Not the Masters of the world, more like the horny nebbishes of planet earth.

[Grey]

Humans are just one part of this world. Like Were's, they serve a function.