THE PACK Message Boards

Vuldari wrote:[ Do you really think that ONLY Wolf Lovers would become host to Lycanthropy? ... as if, only people who think the way the WOLF CRAZY people in the web forum think would be/become werewolves, and that the popular mindset of people here is in any way, shape or form even REMOTELY close to the attitude, mindset and perspective of the AVERAGE human being?[/size]

I agree with you there.
As for the original cure idea, if there was a cure, and werewolves were real, the I would say the werewolves would not seek the cure if they enjoyed being how they were, and maybe nto even necessarily enjoy it, but accept the way they are. But people who were turned and were afraid of what they became or what they might do, then they would be the ones to find a cure. Thats all common sense stuff... but.

But, if we are viewing the werewolf affliction as a virus/ curse (I hate calling it Lycanthropy becuase thats an actual mental dissorder), then people will still seek a cure.

My idea about lycanthropy is that being a werewolf "unlocks" something that was always there lurking deep in the subconscious, that the host may not have been fully aware of otherwise... call it genetic memory, latent instinct, the wild soul, or whatever. In that sense, to be cured of the wolf is to once again lose that part of oneself that was brought to the forefront, and even if it was something negative or dangerous, one would never quite feel "whole" again once the beast is gone. As a result, even a very reluctant werewolf would, after having experienced it, be wary of ridding himself of it. (And in my world there are many reluctant were-animals, who were otherwise very normal and very average people stricken by transformation.) The most negative among them compare it to a drug addiction, although it runs far deeper into the subconscious than what any mere substance could provide; while on the opposite end, the most optimistic ones claim divine transcendence.

Berserker wrote:My idea about lycanthropy is that being a werewolf "unlocks" something that was always there lurking deep in the subconscious, that the host may not have been fully aware of otherwise... call it genetic memory, latent instinct, the wild soul, or whatever. In that sense, to be cured of the wolf is to once again lose that part of oneself that was brought to the forefront, and even if it was something negative or dangerous, one would never quite feel "whole" again once the beast is gone. As a result, even a very reluctant werewolf would, after having experienced it, be wary of ridding himself of it. (And in my world there are many reluctant were-animals, who were otherwise very normal and very average people stricken by transformation.) The most negative among them compare it to a drug addiction, although it runs far deeper into the subconscious than what any mere substance could provide; while on the opposite end, the most optimistic ones claim divine transcendence.

By that definition, couldn't someone theoretically "cure" lycanthropy by figuring out how to lock it back up again?

Terastas: True... but... well you've probably already figured out it wouldn't be that easy or it would be impossible to lock it up again, depending on the situation... never mind...

Edited for content...

WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:Vuldari:
To be clear: The human was asking what would happen if a cure was developed for a genetic werebeast, not one caused by a virus or a curse.

As in... IT IS A PART OF YOU FROM THE START... and someone just said they can make you human... not again, just human...)

#1 ... that does not make any sense.

If the "Werebeasts" in general were never human to begin with, then the "Cure" would actually be a mutagen which transforms Non-Human creatures into Humans ... which is a whole different can of worms, as that would open up the possibility of all sorts of creatures being exposed to it by accident ... and then one would have the whole issue of, "do we treat this lab rat we just turned into a human as a HUMAN ... do we make him a citizen, give him some clothes and send him to school or what??"

That, or it would be a metamorphic transformation represent, which would trap them in whatever shape they are in when it is administered ... in which case, they STILL would not be Humans, and anyone who dislikes them for not being Human would know that and won't care if they LOOK like one or not ... thus the "Cure" would be pointless. (No one would have even created it, as those who dislike them the most would not want to take away the one surefire way to tell the "OTHERS" apart from REAL Humans ... and if they were the perfect, cuddly, enlightened creatures with their own culture and secret societies as you people seem to be trying to make them into, they surely would not have made it for themselves ... so it wouldn't even exist, since no one would ever have made it, or would bother trying to administer it in such a scenario)

AND ... if they were born that way, but could still bite and "Initiate" others, than ALL bitten would be "Infected" by a foreign agent (it doesn't matter if you call it a "Virus" or make up some new word for it ... if it wasn't there before, but takes over the body, it's and "INFECTION"), in which case everything I said would remain 100% valid for all but the originators, whom would be hated even more so by purists and fanatics for apparently trying to take AWAY the Humanity of others, and make them into "Something Else" and not even HALF-HUMANS any more, but just 'abominations' (as opositionalists would see them) that pretend to be humans by looking like them sometimes.

(I'm seriously getting tired of this delusional Therian ideology "Everyone is actually secretly a Furry/Their-Favorite-Animal, and they just need to let it out" Bull$*** ... THAT IS NOT WHAT A WEREWOLF IS! That is what Therians and FURRIES are [or WISH they were, rather]. Can you really not tell the difference??)

If the thread isn't actually about Werewolves, it has no business being in the "What Should a WEREWOLF be" section.

... if the discussion is about a Therian/Furry fantasy race of super beings that you made up yourself, which are not at all Werewolves, but something completely different ... first, you should have said that to begin with, and second ... it belongs in the "General Discussion" or maybe the "Creative Writing (other)" section, and not here.




#2 ...

... "The Human"??? ...

Seriously ... WTF?!

(Okay...
1: why do you think the human removed that? Because it doesn't make any sense... and he realized that...

2: If you have a problem with this thread, don't post here.

3: What if werewolves are nothing more than an alteration, a mutation in the human genetic pool. They still retain human DNA that has been altered for some unknown purpose that gives them their abilities, and that this alteration can be reversed. IE... cured. No, it wasn't made by man, nature did it. Yes, they can alter others... but only ones who willingly do it.)

4: If i had known you'd pull this crap on this thread, i would have suggested you stay away.

I will admit to the whole {bleep}ing world that i have a split personality that happens to be a werewolf that i discuss things with.

I posted this thread because i wanted to know what everyone's opinions on this subject were.

I got your ideas on the subject in your long-winded idea bashing post where you discussed your continued belief that wereism is a disease.

And by the way...

I was not talking about the therian/furry ideology... i was talking about every other FREAKING CULTURE THAT BELIEVES WE HAVE AN ANIMAL GUIDE/SPIRIT FORM WE CAN TAKE. Native Americans have believed for CENTURIES that they have an animal form in the spirit world. Wiccans, Witches, Warlocks, every pagan culture also has beliefs similar to those. Therians and furries might have adopted the idea, but they didn't start it.

It's not a new idea, it's an idea that existed in ancient times.

I'm tired of having to deal with your constant criticism, insults and frankly... i'm done with it.

Now please, this i an actual thread where i wish to discuss with other people about a topic i found interesting; you wish to complain, do it on the venting thread.

WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:I was not talking about the therian/furry ideology... i was talking about every other FREAKING CULTURE THAT BELIEVES WE HAVE AN ANIMAL GUIDE/SPIRIT FORM WE CAN TAKE. Native Americans have believed for CENTURIES that they have an animal form in the spirit world. Wiccans, Witches, Warlocks, every pagan culture also has beliefs similar to those ...

Absolutely NONE of which are "WEREWOLVES", but entirely different things.

As I said ... can't you tell the difference? Can you really not see that they are different things ... that Legends of Native American Shaman who can assume animal form are NOT "Werewolf" Stories, but Native American Shaman Magic stories ... and someone whose "Spirit Animal" is a Wolf, and someone with Lycanthropy are TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. ? ?

If THAT was what your were talking about, then this thread makes even LESS sense. How can one create a "Cure" for a religion/belief? Is there a shot or a pill that can "Cure" people of Christianity and Buddhism too?

WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:Now please, this i an actual thread where i wish to discuss with other people about a topic i found interesting; you wish to complain, do it on the venting thread.

Then discuss ... in the appropriate area. This is the section for "WEREWOLF" discussion.

If you are saying that is never what this thread was about, than clarify that in the beginning and then have one of the moderators move the thread to the appropriate section, so no one (like me) is confused and thinks we are actually talking about a cure for "Werewolves"/"Lycanthropy" here, which is implied when you simply say "A Cure" in the "Werewolf" section of the forum. "Werebeasts in General" I interpreted as being Lycanthropy which turns people into animals OTHER than wolves ... but still some form of "Lycanthropy", which is a CONDITION and not a religion, or a species or a culture.

If I knew you were NOT talking about Werewolves, I would have approached the conversation in a totally different mindset and perspective.

I love culture and legends ... and I called myself a Furry for years (though not any more) ... My interest in Metamorphosis is far stronger OUTSIDE of Lycanthropy anyway ... but Werewolves are Werewolves (and there are many different kinds), and everything else is everything else.


Is it really so hard to learn to recognize the difference?

(You know what... it doesn't matter what we say. You will always have something to discredit us, or worse...make us feel like our ideas are meaningless.

Tell me: Why are you even on this forum if you think wereism is disease? You a scientist whose studying the "idiots" who run around saying this is what i believe and this is what i believe and then go through and correct them?

He asked a question, people answered, and you... criticized... you say this has no merit being in the what a werewolf should be forum?

I thought the human was talking about a so-called cure for being a werewolf, were animal in general?

We have no defense against your ideas of it being a disease, because we've never thought of it as such. And we try and explain it, you make it look like we're idiots. Well, good for you.

Everyone else seems to have put in constructive ideas, and you... well you have your way or no way.

It doesn't matter one way or another, because you will always win...
So be it...)

Vuldari wrote: Is it really so hard to learn to recognize the difference?

Oftentimes, yes. Considering the definition of "werewolf" is extraordinarily broad, contentious, and not exclusive to any particular country, myth, or historical period.

I've long been an advocate of the idea that everyone's werewolves are valid here, often in support of you, but the ridiculous way you're behaving in this thread makes me question such support.

Let's just agree to disagree, and move on. Keep in mind, THIS THREAD IS BASED ON A HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION REGARDING FICTIONAL LITERATURE. Arguing and flaming and bashing over nit-picky and ambiguous criteria for fictional creatures in fictional situations for the purposes of fictional literature does not amount to anything fascinating to read; it only causes more argument, and NOT any credibility to one's ideas. Let's keep it rational. Everybody's interpretations are welcome here. It is not up to anyone on either side of the issue to decide who's right and who's wrong.

Besides, I'm pretty sure that the most prevalent goal of The Pack is to present many opinions about what a werewolf CAN be, and NOT what it SHOULD be.

I like you, Gevaudan. Because you're often the level-head in any debate.

Gevaudan wrote:I'm pretty sure that the most prevalent goal of The Pack is to present many opinions about what a werewolf CAN be, and NOT what it SHOULD be.

The reason I've posted here is to comment on this--I'm really beginning to think that this should become a forum rule. No one should ever discredit the ideas of anyone else, all are valid here. A Werewolf is a mythical creature, therefore it can be anything, it can be what any one of us here thinks it is. That needs to be stressed, and I think that would be helped by making that above bit of text of Gev's a rule.

On the werewolf side of things- it would depend on what kind of transformations they have. If they are the savage variety that is always bloodthirsty and dangerous when forced to transform than most would probably want a cure, unless they like the power it give them and enjoy the killing.
If they have control over themselves when they changed I could certainly see some wanting to keep it. Maybe not the majority, but enough to make it a controversial issue. If there are benefits to being a werewolf some people may decide that they outweigh the risks of staying one once the cure is made public.
And even if you are going by the assumption that it is an “infection,” does that automatically make it a bad thing? Many animals live with symbiotic species that enhance their ability to survive, what if the virus or whatever evolved alongside humankind to do a similar thing? Maybe, mentally, anyone infected would automatically be primed to make use of whatever strength/abilities the virus gives them. Others might want to “cure” them and restore them to normal humanity, but they might be totally OK with what they are.
Another comparison could be certain mental differences that, while technically called diseases or disorders (alterations in what it is to be a “normal” human), might not always be looked on as a bad thing. Autism spectrum disorders might be a good example of this. They can cause a lot of harm in a person’s life, but they can also give people unique abilities. My Aspergers syndrome causes problems (ex. lack of social skills), but is also beneficial in some ways (ex. increased ability to focus on certain subjects and turn that interest into a carrier choice). If I was given the choice of a “all or nothing” type cure to mentally be a normal person, I probably wouldn’t take it. I see this as part of who I am, part of my identity. I don’t see why this could not be the same for werewolves, especially if they are born into it and are not forced to hurt people when they change.

On the human side of things- I think it would get really ugly. Even given the best case werewolf scenario of them being in control of themselves and not very dangerous, people are always going to be afraid of anything that is “other.” We have a heck of a hard time getting along with people who are part of other cultures, imagine the challenge of trying to make them get along with werewolves. The risk of forcing the cure on the werewolves would be very high, especially if news of it were to follow very soon after the discovery of them. The government might have known about them long enough before they become public to have the cure ready, and I bet most citizens would support it making their lives safer by using the cure, whether the werewolves agreed to it or not.

Vuldari wrote: (I'm seriously getting tired of this delusional Therian ideology "Everyone is actually secretly a Furry/Their-Favorite-Animal, and they just need to let it out" Bull$*** ... THAT IS NOT WHAT A WEREWOLF IS! That is what Therians and FURRIES are [or WISH they were, rather]. Can you really not tell the difference??)

This comment was not necessary and I suggest you not do it again.

I have to step in and say something to you Vulduri. Something I have noticed over the years is that you seem to want your opinions to matter over everyone else. How is it that you only know the facts about werewolves? How can no one else have any facts without you debating it or making it to where it turns into a debate/arguement? It is not fair for you to come off as being the one knowing all because if you or anyone else really knew so much they would be off proving it to the world. I don't know why you like doing this and also insulting one's beliefs isn't right. Why can't it just be your opinion and their opinion?

I would like to personally know where you get all your knownledge from and to prove it to be factual. This is painful and abit embarassing to see one act out as you keep doing when someone argues something you might not agree with. Each of us is entitled to opinions not just one. It is not one sided. Believe what you will, but insults aren't needed. We insult you with harmless opinions while you bash several persons when it isn't right for you. This is not fair nor is it mature. Best if you think about how you approach such things.

({pokes head out of hole. Decides it's safe for now.} okay... Leland, the human, and i agree with the following person.

Leonca~ wrote:On the werewolf side of things- it would depend on what kind of transformations they have. If they are the savage variety that is always bloodthirsty and dangerous when forced to transform than most would probably want a cure, unless they like the power it give them and enjoy the killing.
If they have control over themselves when they changed I could certainly see some wanting to keep it. Maybe not the majority, but enough to make it a controversial issue. If there are benefits to being a werewolf some people may decide that they outweigh the risks of staying one once the cure is made public.
And even if you are going by the assumption that it is an “infection,” does that automatically make it a bad thing? Many animals live with symbiotic species that enhance their ability to survive, what if the virus or whatever evolved alongside humankind to do a similar thing? Maybe, mentally, anyone infected would automatically be primed to make use of whatever strength/abilities the virus gives them. Others might want to “cure” them and restore them to normal humanity, but they might be totally OK with what they are.
Another comparison could be certain mental differences that, while technically called diseases or disorders (alterations in what it is to be a “normal” human), might not always be looked on as a bad thing. Autism spectrum disorders might be a good example of this. They can cause a lot of harm in a person’s life, but they can also give people unique abilities. My Aspergers syndrome causes problems (ex. lack of social skills), but is also beneficial in some ways (ex. increased ability to focus on certain subjects and turn that interest into a carrier choice). If I was given the choice of a “all or nothing” type cure to mentally be a normal person, I probably wouldn’t take it. I see this as part of who I am, part of my identity. I don’t see why this could not be the same for werewolves, especially if they are born into it and are not forced to hurt people when they change.

On the human side of things- I think it would get really ugly. Even given the best case werewolf scenario of them being in control of themselves and not very dangerous, people are always going to be afraid of anything that is “other.” We have a heck of a hard time getting along with people who are part of other cultures, imagine the challenge of trying to make them get along with werewolves. The risk of forcing the cure on the werewolves would be very high, especially if news of it were to follow very soon after the discovery of them. The government might have known about them long enough before they become public to have the cure ready, and I bet most citizens would support it making their lives safer by using the cure, whether the werewolves agreed to it or not.

they make several good points...
{sniffs}
{ducks back into hole})

Since Vuldari is getting a lot of flack here, I don't want to justify his behavior, but I do want to try to understand and possibly utilize his opinions. His manner of argument might come off as rather assertive, but his argument is just as valid.

Even amidst all of this flaming, I can see what Vuldari is trying to say. I will admit that we have gotten a recent influx of users that have very strong therian/spiritual beliefs, and not that I'm saying anything against them, but I can see where Vuldari's coming from. Personally, I'd also like to see a few more weaknesses and shortcomings in werewolves, so that they're more believable (one reason why I haven't written anything yet). I would enjoy seeing a werewolf lose all control and commit some unspeakable act of violence every so often; it stirs up conflict, and conflict always makes things more interesting.

Vuldari, if you're reading this, then please understand that I am one of hopefully many others who actually wants to evaluate your opinion with the same weight as everyone else's, but the attitude with which you are conveying your ideas is unacceptable. It's not that I don't want to hear your ideas, I just don't want to hear the accompanying anger and hostility.

I don't want any more people to leave.

Cures for werecreatures and cursed beings are kind of overrated. Because humanity wants to them to be normal and human. I see those a lot in novels, comics, movies, and stories. How boring and cliche'.

Curse, Transform, Kill, Eat, Kill, Roar, Howl, Kill, Cure, back to human or turn to human. Send to prison or study for science.

Gevaudan wrote:I don't want any more people to leave.

That's exactly what's going to happen, though.

No offense to anyone here, but I like to stress that everyone has a subjective understanding of reality, and that all Werewolves are valid. Is your were strong, is it weak, does it have lots of weakness, is it prone to acts of hostility, is it a hippie, are they very different to the Werewolves of the past? None of this matters, none of it. It doesn't matter if a were is incredibly resistant or as weak as an old bloke, because each and every individual here is entitled to their own dream of a Werewolf by right.

Yet if there are those who are actively going to go after and attack people with a certain kind of belief, then people are going to leave, people are going to think that it's just not worth having something that means so much to them assaulted and insulted, they're just going to trickle away and the Pack's Den is going to become an unknown again, just a place where only a few people hang out and post, largely forgotten to the World.

I'm not afraid to say that these kinds of arguments are why my posting has been so lax lately, and I'm terrified to look in the 'What should a Werewolf be?' subforums sometimes just because I don't really feel like facing another argument, where one person, or more than one person will be showing a blatant lack of regard and respect for their fellow man and woman. I don't want to listen to someone mouthing off, insulting people's lifestyle choices, their beliefs, the things that are important to them.

It's easy to take someone's side, but if there was someone here insulting religion every day and arguing the bad points of it, you wouldn't feel very welcome, Gev -- and that's exactly how all these therian and spiritual people are going to feel: like they're outsiders, like they're being forced away, that we consider their view to not be valid. And that's simply not true.

If this kind of behaviour keeps up, I fear to think of what will happen to the Pack's Den. I respect Vuldari's opinions too, but he needs to stop insulting people, he has no right to attack someone because of what they choose to do, because of their lifestyle, or because of their beliefs, no one has the right to do that. So I hope he takes what the moderators have told him to heart and realises just how wrong it is to do so.

If Vuldari could lay off insulting what a person believes or chooses as a lifestyle choice in presenting his opinions, then maybe I could even really like him. I want him to have some kind of revelation one of these days, and become a more rational and even-handed person because of it, to undergo his own renaissance and to come out of that cocoon as a butterfly.

For if things continue are they are now... then like I said, I don't see this turning out for the best.

--Edit--

The whole point of this was to stress to anyone with therian or other spiritual beliefs that you are welcome here, this kind of behaviour isn't acceptable. Your Werewolf is as valid as mine, as valid as Vuldari's, as Gev's, as that of anyone who posts here--you're welcome to see Werewolves in whatever light you want. Please don't believe that there is some kind of enforced way that you should approach Werewolves here, because that's not what this forum is about.

Okay: for one, this thread is drifting into toxcicity.
Take a deep breath, and let's try again. There is no reason for anyone to challenge, or to attack anyone else's post. If you disagree, ignore them.

Please, we're better than this.

People, people... Let's not turn this into an argument about what words mean. How can we bicker about what is or isn't a werewolf, when it seems highly doubtful that any of us have a living example available for comparison.

The "activating something already present" (versus "stuffing in something new") is an acceptable premise that has already been done in several werewolf fiction works: it's hinted at in Wolf, the 1994 movie starring Jack Nicholson and Michelle Pfeiffer; it's implied in the parts I've read of Whitley Streiber's The Wild. If werewolves can walk on walls or shoot lightning from their fingertips, then it's not a big stretch to apply this sort of emotional tie-in, even if it does cover some of the same ground that the anthro/furry community covers. Here's a controversial realization: furries and therianthropy are two different interpretations of a common theme.

Run for it! Run for your lives! I've just started a flame war! Oh, God! What have I done!!! What have I done!!!

Sorry, RedEye.

I reacted out of worry that people would be scared off, and I got ahead of myself. I won't say anything more here along those lines but I would like to also apologise for doing my part to disrupt the flow of the thread.

We do have a topic, so I'm all for civil discussion of that topic from here on out and leaving what's happened behind us. All in favour, say aye!

Aye.

Aye aye...

okay...

So basically, what happens in the comic is what would happen if they made a cure for werewolves in someone's story.

Any other ideas not already expressed? Please?

Scott Gardener wrote:Here's a controversial realization: furries and therianthropy are two different interpretations of a common theme.

Run for it! Run for your lives! I've just started a flame war! Oh, God! What have I done!!! What have I done!!!

Well yeah, and werewolves, too. That's not controversial... at least to me anyway. No flame war here.

The same idea that inspired an African sculptor to create a statue of a lion-woman goddess 5000 years ago is behind people turning into werewolves in 20th-century roleplaying games. Anthropomorphic anything doesn't just spring out of thin air. There is a common thread in human development that inspires us to weave animals, wolves included, into our very being. Thus my confusion and dismay when a creature as multi-colored as the werewolf is pigeonholed, or claimed to be exclusive to any one idea. The werewolf doesn't stand on a single paw: he stands on four, with one in spirituality, one in superstition, one in nature, and one in psychology. His ground is the entirety of human history, vast, far-reaching, and rich with imagination.

Sorry for grabbing Scott's off-topic tab and expanding it.

Hmmm... Hey Berserker, mind if i use that the werewolf stands on four paws sentence in my DA Sig? It's a really good one...

And honestly, i just want peoples opinions now... i think we've pretty much covered what would happen... but what does everyone think about what will happen?