How fast does a transformation occur?

Calypso Blue · Post by **Calypso Blue** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:41 pm

Tigerwolf · Post by **Tigerwolf** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:25 pm

This is a tough one. Clearly for dramatic effect, a short transformation would be best. The problem comes with the realism factor: You'd not likely be abe to tolerate muscle and bone structure changes in mere seconds. Fur and skin cells also take some time to grow and develop. So for realism, a slow transformation would be more believeable. However, I'd bow to production and dramatic needs to fit the story line and to keep action flowing. Likewise, it could be reasonable that some stress to the character (fear, anger, etc) could accellerate the process.

WolvenOne · Post by **WolvenOne** » Wed Nov 24, 2004 6:40 pm

If realism is the ultimate goal, then the transformation has to take place over hours. However, the problem with that is many fold.

First off, is a transformation takes that long, then, it's very likely that a werewolf would be discovered fairly quickly. I mean, it'd be difficult to hide out for most of a day while transforming, and if people are dying, the werewolf's consistent dissappearence would quickly raise suspicians.

Second, short of doing a time lapse, sitting there and watching the werewolf transforming for hours would be, impossible. It would simply take up the entire duration of the movie, and then some.

Finally, there's the fact that long transformations would quickly become a burden to a werewolf. If the transformations are quick, then an intelligent werewolf can use them to escape ditection by stashing some human clothes somewhere and changing into them once back in human-form. If it took hours to revert back to normal, then he or she couldn't do this. The werewolf would again have to spend most of the day hiding as it reverted back to normal. Not only does this eat up time, but it creates a very long period as to where the werewolf would be vulnerable.

Goldenwolf · Post by **Goldenwolf** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 1:55 am

I'm sorry, I'm a sucker for those quick transformations, a la Van Helsing. It just makes more sense for a creature that is bred specificly to kill, and kill swiftly. However, that works for my werewolves, and it may not work for yours ;)

Xodiac · Post by **Xodiac** » Thu Nov 25, 2004 4:57 am

If realism is the ultimate goal, then the transformation has to take place over hours.

Technically, if realisim is the goal, there shouldn't be any werewolves.

Slightly more realistically, it should take place over as long a time as you should get away with for the story.

However, unless the story is about the change and people dealing with it, and not about the werewolf and people dealing with IT... you'll want it to take place over a few minutes inside the story continuity. Most stories have the change be extremely painful or at least awkward, and thus the were could do nothing but roll around and scream during the transformation. Why bother have him rolling and screaming for four hours? It's not like it'll be shown onscreen, so a jump cut and seeing 4 hours pass is just as good as seeing 4 minutes pass. And if it's just as good, all that matters is how well it fits in the story. And usually shorter fits better.

dD · Post by dD » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:05 pm

Now I'm begging you to do a sequence that is at least 5 minutes long, 7 mins would be the best time.
Look I want to see the transformation take place in a cool way like in 'The Howling' I would be really really disappointed to see the transformation take place really quickly.
no no no please no.
It must take at least 5 minutes so that we can really appreciate the extent of the change and understand the pain and release of the transformation.
PEOPLE GO TO WEREWOLF MOVIES TO SEE THE TRANSFORMATION SCENE.
In AWIL in The Howling, in DOG SOLDIERS in ROMASANTA THE WEREWOLF HUNT, in UNDERWORLD. When the transformation is over in 2 minutes then we really lose out. We feel cheated. Maybe I'm just talking about Transformation fans but there are a lot of us, most of the general public don't know that they are fans of a longer sequence but they still feel ripped off it is too short. About twice the length of the sequence in 'The Howling' is best, the pacing of that transformation is perfect to mty mind but the only reason it wasn't twice the length was that they lacked the technology to make it longer and more detailed.
So I'm saying to the filmmakers, I may be in the minority on this board but I KNOW how I feel and I know it isn't a minority thought. I want this movie to feature the BEST EVER DTAILED WEREWOLF TRANSFORMATION of all time. This is the only time any film company has ever asked and dang it I don't want to have say once this film comes out, 'it was okay but AWIL is still better. It's 20 years on, please let it be a longer and superior sequence. I'm begging here on the behalf of thousands of Werewolf fans.

WolvenOne · Post by **WolvenOne** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:49 pm

Speaking as an occasional author, (mainly just amature stuff,) transformations scenes, while important, always take back-seat to the story.

6-7 minute transformation scenes, would simply become boring after awhile. That period of time is about 1/3rd the amount of time a typical half hour cartoon lasts. (typical running time is about 20-22 minutes when you take out the commercials.)

Think about that, think about how much story and character development you can put into that much time. While no doubt, we fans of the werewolf transformations won't be satisfied, everybody else will simply be bored to death.

We are not the mainstream audience, ReQuest is coming to us for input, nothing more. We cannot ask them to throw away the mainstream audience completly for out sake.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:10 pm

Realisitcally, a transformation sequence would take hours, but if this is going to be a movie, this is one of the few subjects in which realism is best avoided. The transformation sequence might be entertaining to watch the first time, but for a movie centered around werewolves, it will get boring after a while.

A transformation in a few seconds would be really stretching it, so your best bet would be to go with 1 to 5 minutes as the generic time. By that I mean it should be stated by one of the characters that a transformation usually takes five minutes tops (and a really skilled werewolf could shift as fast as up to one minute), but no actual shifting sequence should drag out in front of the camera that long.

dDnotloggedin · Post by **dDnotloggedin** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 10:48 am

Thats why the first ever transformation should take a while because the body isn't used to it. The first transformation would be the hardest. A practiced 'were' would of course find that their body shifts more easily and quickly.

I agree that they don't all have to be lengthy transformations but we need at least one in this movie. If you can't outdo a 20 year old movie then whats the point?

Silverclaw · Post by **Silverclaw** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:22 pm

(hi! New here

)

I think that a transformation should take over five min for a newbie werewolf. An experienced were could transform in under five. Things like fear, anger, etc could help speed it up. If they are in danger, it wont take as long.

I would think that the first transformation would be extremly painful. But after more practice, it would become bearable.

Transformation should be an energy consuming process. A werewolf wouldnt be able to transform back and forth 10 times in a single day and night.

WolvenOne · Post by **WolvenOne** » Sat Nov 27, 2004 3:40 pm

If you can't outdo a 20 year old movie then whats the point?

I dunno, how about, to tell a good story and to do one's best to entertain people?

I don't mean to be rude here, but, you cannot expect ReQuest to constantly compare this film to others just because they happen to be the same genre. This is thier own film, thier own story, if they want short transformation scenes, then it's thier right to do so. If they want a long one, then it's also thier right.

Saying the film will be a failure if they don't do things exactly like AWIL but better, puts undue pressure on the movie makers.

Debating what the length should be is fine though. Let's just talk about the merits of doing things one way as opposed to another.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 01, 2004 3:44 pm

Since this movie will be about werewolves then there is automatically a level of suspension of disbelief that would come with it. So haveing the transformation take days affects the action, and slows down the plot, if the werewolf is to play a part.

If the werewolves have transformed before, or were born this way, then it is plausible that they would be able to control the length of the transformation, for various purposes or to suit their needs.

For example. If they found the transformation arousing to them, they could favor a slow transformation, but if they had to defend themselves, they could probably transform in seconds.

Lasthowl · Post by **Lasthowl** » Thu Dec 02, 2004 12:04 pm

Initial stages can take hours, if kept subtle enough that the werewolf can't quite tell what's going on.

Once it's obvious though, it should take no more than half an hour to complete.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:08 am

Ok if we were going for true realism it would actually take weeks. but then contiunity is almost completly destroyed because then the idea of shapeshiting is then completely dumped out the window. in short they would be stuck in werewolf form forever.

so that mostlikely that would not work in a movie like this.

As a thought the first transformation would take over 5 mins. But rather than the werewolf gaining more expeirence to get the transformation faster, the more the body shifts between forms the quicker (and less painful) the transformation is (being less than 5 mins).

For example, a werewolf who shifts only in a great while would have more painful and slower than a werewolf who changes once (or more) a day. But if the werewolf doesn't transform after a while it actually becomes more painful and slower again

just an idea to throw out

NightmareHero · Post by **NightmareHero** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 3:26 am

Well this really depends somewhat on the software used. I think they are using Lightwave, couple that with the Sasquash particle hair rendering engine, and you have a very good fur effect. the only problem is that rendering takes a while, so they would need a couple of multitasking computers, maybe with dual or quadruple processers to get things done.

I'm really not an effects expert. I'm sure if the FX people have any doubts about how to do this, they should go to www.rowsby.com . This animator made a werewolf model and has a tutorial detailing how he did the fur.

It also depends of the actual CG model used for the actors. will a full model be implemented to morph, and its bone structure to reshape? Would they make a CG body cast of the actresses/actors and create a new body morph with different geometry and bone positions? I don't think anyone has come close to doing that yet, it may become more feasible after time, maybe this FX team will do it. One advantage of fully TRANSFORMABLE male and female models, is that you wouldn't have to use so many prosthetics, provided that the lighting is accurate and is recorded for the animator's future reference to insert the werewolves in the live action scene, so that they fit seamlessely into the frame. You could reuse the same models again and again, altering them for different cast members. The only problem that would remain is how to do the cloths ripping, I think Van Helsing is the first to do this. It should involve the clothing using the same morph targets as the body, but including its own morphs to show rippage and tearing. Also they would have to account for mesh collisions to show the movement of the cloths by hands, and the werewolves touching other CG objects including themselves, and how pressure is showen from their touch, and on their particle rendered fur.

But then again, this may be trivial, these guys are professionals, I don't need to tell them anything.

NightmareHero · Post by **NightmareHero** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:10 am

I believe five minutes is more than enough ample time for a transformation, it also depends on what they are aiming for, shock value, eye candy, a little of both. If the werewolves, especially the females, are supposed to be asthetically pleasing to the audience then the transformation should emphasize the eye candy aspect by show caseing the promenanent body parts transforming into a new mythical form. Think about it this way, who here knows about the comic book character She-Hulk? haven't any of you guys ever imagined what she would look like transforming in live action? The same could be true for the female werewolves, assuming they don't look grotesque but rather beautiful in their animal forms, as much say, as a real wolf looks beautiful to us humans, or their cubs for that matter.

If you want to know what I'm talking about, then go to a calendar shop and you will probably find a couple of calendars with pictures of wolves in their natural habitats, along with their cubs.

ShadowFang · Post by **ShadowFang** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:50 am

I would think realisticly that werewolves would take days to shift into their werewolf form and back. Thats alot of body chemistry that goes on there and something going that fast could be potentially unhealthy. However, nobody wants a transformation sequence taking days. So, thus, I'm going for the 5 minute ordeal.

NightmareHero · Post by **NightmareHero** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:01 pm

ShadowFang wrote:I would think realisticly that werewolves would take days to shift into their werewolf form and back. Thats alot of body chemistry that goes on there and something going that fast could be potentially unhealthy. However, nobody wants a transformation sequence taking days. So, thus, I'm going for the 5 minute ordeal.

It would slow down the plot I believe. Because you're waiting for the transformation, and it wouldn't happen in a speedily pace (5 or more minutes)

Also if you are talking about a bodily transformation, not a makeup one like the one used in Ginger Snaps, then it could be harder for the FX department to handle if it wasn't all at one time.

ShadowFang · Post by **ShadowFang** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 11:56 pm

Yup. Even though its not on the dot realism, to keep the audience moving with the movie, you almost have to settle with the 5 minutes or under option.

KitsuneKit · Post by **KitsuneKit** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 2:57 pm

The slower the better.
I like to see subtle changes that take full effect in the end. Like how the kid changed in Jumanji.

KitsuneKit · Post by **KitsuneKit** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:08 pm

Sorry for double posting.

But it also depends on how the transformation happens. I want something realistic. The one thing that ticks me off is instantanous transformations, You know where it's a puff of smoke or a flash of light and boom they've changed.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:10 pm

KitsuneKit wrote:Sorry for double posting.

But it also depends on how the transformation happens. I want something realistic. The one thing that ticks me off is instantanous transformations, You know where it's a puff of smoke or a flash of light and boom they've changed.

Don't forget spinning in place like a tornado. A.K.A FangFace.

LoupGarou · Post by **LoupGarou** » Tue Dec 07, 2004 7:42 pm

In my opinion the first ever transformation would be the longets one,after that in can be a few minutes long or even just a minute long.

Starfury · Post by **Starfury** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 2:37 am

Ok, I think AWIL is pretty much the benchmark for a good TF scene. Not that it has to be done exactly the same, I'm sure someone out there with more artistic style could come up with all sorts of enchancements. But the type and length of TF is generally what I would like to see in a film again. The TF in AWIL is a little over 2.5 minutes long, and you get a lot of eye candy for that without holding up the film. That's my two cents.

Shadu · Post by **Shadu** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:23 pm

the transformation should be determined by the full moon. i think you are not using the moon as the triger for the transformation but i think it should play an important part in the very first transformation, from then on well it can work however you choose. now in speed i guess well it can vary from days to seconds because of this, and it can be used as the closer to the full moon you are infected the more painfull the first time is.

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