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UPDATE: It's alive, it's ALIVE! Ho ho ho. In the name of God, now I know what it feels like to be God! Et cetera, et cetera.

Well, lasses and blokes, it looks like this project's back on track. And like a hungry Transformer offered a feast of energon cubes, we're hoping this thread will be beset with interest again. Oh yes, that was a bit of a jab there. Ha ha ha. Still, the script has had cringe-worthy bits cleaned out, it's far more functional now (Whee, I was rusty!), and so we're just about ready to get this bally thing read!

For those who have no bleedin' idea what I'm talking about, here's the original post...

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*ahem.*

Do you think you have a nice voice?

Do you wish to be part of an experimental Pack project?

Now that that's out of the way... a bunch of Pack members (including myself) are working on a project, one which might interest some of you.

We've been trying to induce a state of controlled, simulated lycanthropy, in which, for a time, one may to a small degree experience what it is to be a werewolf, or at the very least to undergo a shift. We've had varying degrees of success, and if you've not guessed yet, our experiment revolves around the use of hypnosis, and a particular hypnosis file we've found. A certain individual (they know who they are) has been tinkering around with the file, cleaning it up and such, and generally making it better.

We would, of course, share the file with anyone who's interested... but we have our eyes set on bigger goals. The file itself is flawed due to the quality of the recording and the way it's been put together, we'd like to record our own, considering that the members of the project so far have experience in most of the necessary fields: hypnosis, audio equipment, and so on.

Suffice it to say though, for a new file, we'd also need a new reader. And such a person would need to be very confident with their voice indeed, we might only get one or two people, but if, perchance, a bunch of people are interested in this, then we'll hold auditions! But I digress. <.<

The end result is going to be a modular script, one which the listener could pick parts from at will, this would mean different inductions, different types of shift, different kinds of details for the werewolf we'll be trying to create, and so on.

So if you're as crazy as we are, and you reckon you have a good voice, and you're bold enough, then post here. I have the feeling that this thread will just fall into obscurity despite our best efforts, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

For the purpose of this and further bizarre pack experiments, we've set up a channel on the Pack IRC server, #packlab, where we can all gather and discuss things. And here's a web chat link for the same place (uses mibbit, same as the Pack's chat): http://tinyurl.com/packlab

So that's that then, hopefully we'll be able to do something with this project. At the very least it might raise general awareness of hypnosis and the rather interesting effects it can have.

Well this is certainly very interesting! However, smooth, flawless speech is not one of the things Im great at. Keep us updated though!

Holy shizzle, this is the coolest idea EVER.

My older brother writes and records his own music -- the music is digital, his voice is recorded. The theme of his last CD was, in fact, "shapeshifting," and he has a particular song (which happens to be the longest) that provides 'instructions' for shapeshifting. It's fast-paced and made for the raver/dancer-scene, along with blatant rocktronica influences, but if anyone's interested, I might be able to post a file up here. (plug: he sells the demo too, if you want to support an indie artist)

So, if your recording at all demands a little bit of music (ambient beats, perhaps?), Dale's always willing to pump his stuff for a little publicity. Otherwise, I KNOW he has access to a fairly good-quality voice-recording device somewhere; you might be able to use his, or one of his buddy's, voice. I'll tell him about this; He'll LOVE it.

outwarddoodles wrote:Holy shizzle, this is the coolest idea EVER.

It's funny, I thought to myself early on with this that if anyone would be interested in this, it's going to be outward, considering that you seem to be into all this stuff as much as I am. Then again, I've been amazed at the reception in general, in how many people have been interested in the old file and who turned up at #packlab.

outwarddoodles wrote:So, if your recording at all demands a little bit of music (ambient beats, perhaps?), Dale's always willing to pump his stuff for a little publicity.

At the moment we're using an ambient Wolf-loop, but if the two of you want to tinker with any of our resources, feel free.

At the moment, we're using a file that Howlitzer found which goes as the background of a hypnosis track, it's actually a Wolf howls ambiance track, but as I said, if you want to have a tinker around with it, by all means!

http://rapidshare.com/files/243405147/S ... Canine.mp3

outwarddoodles wrote:Otherwise, I KNOW he has access to a fairly good-quality voice-recording device somewhere; you might be able to use his, or one of his buddy's, voice. I'll tell him about this; He'll LOVE it.

That'd be helpful, once we've got a confirmed voice, I'm going to start on the script, it'll be a pain in the arse to write but I'll do my best. Basically we're planning on doing it modularly so the person can get the kind of werewolf/experience they desire.

That's why another person hanging around in #packlab could be helpful, because when the time to write the script comes along, feedback would always be useful. So if you want, check out the link in the first post, or simply connect to the Pack's IRC server and /join #packlab, we'd be glad to have you there!

Aw man, this looks so awesome! I think I have a great voice (or at least a semi-decent one), but unfortunately I have no good-quality audio-recording equipment. Have you thought of any lines to include in the script yet?

Actually, clear speech and a steady vocal rhythm are the needed things; sub par microphones etc can be digitally "repaired" these days.

Since this is a form of hypnosis, the most important thing is to be able to speak in a calm but controlling manner, as if you were talking to someone who is in a deep depression and you are trying to soothe them. Give it a shot; at least then you can say you tried, even if it didn't work.

While it's true that sub par microphone recordings can be digitally repaired....I will point out that it is still kind of nice to have a decent audio quality.

Especially for the audiophiles out there who tweak out when they can distinctly hear all the small errors....like me

Being annoyed at the file in the first place...I'm guessing can be a major hindrance in it working.

Crazy? Check.

Good voice? Check.

Bold? Double-check.
Access to a semi-decent recording device or the capacity to acquire one? Crud.
Eh. . . The spirit is willing, but the capacity is lacking at the moment. Maybe I could be your Plan Z candidate, I guess.

Plan Z, is that where they try to hypnotize zombies?

Oi, none of that, out you, out, out! I'll not have this thread degenerate into shenanigans!

<.<

*ahem.*

Anyway, I'll do a first write-up of the new script tonight (hopefully), I'll then be bouncing this around people at #packlab, and after that I'll be passing this along to our budding voice-actors so we can find the best person for the job!

I just had to get some things figured out before I started rewriting this script, but I think that I have all that I need now, and I'll get underway. The first script will be sort of an alpha-state project, to test my script-writing, to find the best voice and so on, it'll be a static redo of the script we've already been using.

If we're satisfied with the results, then we'll start discussing the modular version, in which one can construct the experience they're after.

Did I hear shenanigans?!


Anywho, good luck with that, Vagrant.

Uhm, it's an interesting and cool idea. I hope you find the perfect voice for the experiment. Mine is deep but not so cool... =(

Okay, I'm going to call the bluff of anyone who's interested now, as the write-up of the script for the alpha project -- where we write a script and have people read it as an audition to assemble our team -- is complete. I put a surprising amount of work into this script too, and it doesn't seem too bad, and I have to give kudos to Howlitzer for ideas and proof-reading.

So here it is... the new script (hosted at Google Docs).

Anyone who feels brave enough to, record yourself reading it and and put the result online and we'll have a bit of a discussion and vote and pick out the best person for future projects. As I remember, our maybe-volunteers thus far are Terastas, Gev, and outwarddoodle's brother.

Don't worry about your audio equipment, we'll see how that goes and how much it can be cleaned up, I suppose the most important thing is the voice, and how much one knows how to read a script like that.

It needs to be read with a calm, yet controlling voice, as I believe RedEye pointed out, not too slow, keep a pace to it but ensire that each word can be heard clearly, and if you have a soothing voice then all the better. Follow the grammar as you would normally, and if you encounter an ellipses (...), pause for a few seconds and then continue. There are a couple of prompts to read something slower or to wait for a time, but those are few and far between, and the file can be edited to clean up mistakes.

So give it your best, budding hypnonauts (I couldn't resist), and we'll see what we get out of this! If nothing else, it's going to be a great deal better than the file we're using right now, and it won't be gender specific.

"Your phrase is your key to change, when you say it you will immediately undergo a transformation. How long this transformation lasts is entirely up to you, as is the nature of it. "

Autobots, engage!

*Wingman turns into a truck*

Sorry, it was physically impossible for me to resist.

This script seems entirely too extensive, based on what I've seen at a hypnotism show I've attended. A rough guesstimation would put it at over ten minutes of constant talking. That might be too much for one go. It might be a better idea to separate it into different "stages" or whatever, rather than passing Go and collecting $100 right off the bat. That would seem to also be a better way to build upon how receptive listeners are, if it's a gradual process.

Also, is it a good idea to be messing with stuff like this? A friend of mine was briefly convinced she was in a car crash by the hypnotist, and that her legs had been amputated. She spent half an hour crying, and to the best of my knowledge she still doesn't want to talk about it.

I really wouldn't worry about it, wingman. I also wouldn't shoot down the entire thing before its off the ground. This is a voluntary project. Nobody is involved that doesn't want to be.

For one, the script is there to see, nothing is hidden. It's purposefully benign in nature, makes particular stress on the fact that the person has control.....and to be honest, I fail to see how it compares in any way to convincing someone that they got in a car crash and had their legs amputated. That is blatant traumatization, whereas this very much isn't. Honestly I fail to see the comparison.

Also 10 minutes....a stage hypnosis maybe, maybe a hypnosis for something very, very simple....but this isn't a stage hypnosis. By nature it also isn't simple. Going to a single show on hypnosis is also not going to give a full picture of what it should and shouldn't be.

Really, I wouldn't worry about anything going wrong. The script is benign, it make specific points to not put the subject in a situation they do not wish to be in or are uncomfortable with. It will not and cannot make someone do something they truly do not wish to do. It's pretty much just enhanced and guided IMAGINATION...so unless someone is already screwed up, or the session is purposefully traumatizing the person...it's really not going to do any harm.

As for the extensiveness of the script....to me at least, testing the full boat of the basic script seems the best way to test its effectiveness. The entire thing is crafted for one purpose, thus the logical way to test it....is to see if it fulfills that purpose at all. If it works, we have the full file. If part of it is notably flawed, we can re-record THAT part, and edit it into the original.

@Wingman

You know... all shapeshifters can transform themselves, but not all shapeshifters are Transformers. Does that mean werewolves are Autobots? That's silly!

It reminds me of an old line from a Bill & Ted cartoon (from Rufus to the duo); "All love boats are boats, but not all boats are love boats!"

Anyway, let's move on to the meat of the matter! The script will be about 10 minutes when read, 15 minutes at most, and that's not actually long at all. Stage hypnotism isn't quite like what we're doing here, this is very meditative, calm, contemplative, and it has a different feel to it overall, this is why it has a slower pace.

I've done no small amount of research into the topic and you'd find that a good hypnosis session, handled by a skilled hypnotherapist, can go on for quite a while. I've personally witnessed guided imagery sessions that can last over half hour, so by comparison this -- which is partially guided imagery in and of itself -- is actually rather short.

Regarding the next issue you raised, I'd like to say that I'm sorry to hear of what happened to your sister. It actually scares me that a stage hypnotist might do that, but this again highlights the differences between stage hypnotism and what we're trying to do here. A stage hypnotist is rarely ever fully skilled in the ways of hypnotism, and that's why they're often a stage hypnotist instead of a fully qualified hypnotherapist.

If you'll bear wth me, I'd like to highlight some of the differences and why our project shouldn't give you pause for concern...

First of all, the script contains nothing that could be considered dangerous or scarring, the contents of the script are right there for anyone to peruse and verify that. It isn't designed to try to condition a person to do anything dangerous (not that hypnosis could, anyway), and it even provides a safety-net so that the person can pull out at any time if they're feeling afraid.

Besides, I don't doubt the reasoning faculties of anyone here at the Pack forums. One can read the script from start to end and make a decision based on what they've seen as to whether or not it contains any content they'd find undesirable. I believe that as intelligent individuals, every person who either chooses to try or not to try our project will have examined it thoroughly and has a perfectly rational reason behind their choice.

Another thing to consider is that -- unlike this script, and I will stress that -- your sister was exposed to a dangerous scenario which could easily traumatise anyone. A car crash and an amputation? There's nothing that even approaches that in the script we penned, not even. Thematically speaking, it's like comparing a politically correct 80's Saturday morning cartoon with a Stephen King horror flick.

I've never heard of anything liket hat happen, I admit that I'm horrified by the prospect, and I feel bad for your sister... did they lock that guy up? They bloody should have. Because he sounds like a seriously deranged individual, and I'd point out that this issue isn't with hypnosis, as hypnosis is even regularly used for meditative, healing, and therapeutic purposes... the problem is with what this sick individual chose to do.

I'm sorry for your experiences Wingman, and I understand that the rather shady experiences one can have with stage hypnosis can leave one worried. But your sister went in not knowing what she'd have done to her, she wasn't prepared. Whereas we are and will continue to do everything we can to ensure that anyone who listens to the script will be prepared for it, and will have a complete understanding of its purpose.

This is why we have the script on display, this is why we'll advise people to listen to the file in an alert state to check it out first, and this is why we'll provide an understanding of what a person might expect from this project. I have no desire to put Pack members in danger, and unlike stage hypnosis, we'll be doing this by the numbers so that scenarios like what happened to your sister simply cannot occur.

Actually, it wasn't my sister. I have many sisters, but she's not one of them.

I'm pretty sure the show thing was about drinking and driving, it was a couple years ago, and some of the consequences that can arise when it goes wrong.
I realize I didn't mention it before, but it wasn't a "Your legs just got torn off." it was more of a "You don't have any legs any more.". I think that no one there realized that she really likes dancing, and that interacted badly with what was going on.

I wasn't actually referring to hypnotism being traumatizing, I was thinking about what happens afterwards, and how it may affect people on an individual level. To be perfectly frank here, if someone tries this to escape from their "human" life, they may not want to stop, and they may react badly if it works but they cannot "activate" it again by themselves. They'd be given one of their fondest wishes, so will they want to give it up?

Wingman wrote:Actually, it wasn't my sister. I have many sisters, but she's not one of them.

Sorry, I misread. I don't have great sight and I'm prone to the occasional misread, and that depresses me sometimes.

Wingman wrote:I'm pretty sure the show thing was about drinking and driving, it was a couple years ago, and some of the consequences that can arise when it goes wrong.

I think part of the problem here is that you're labouring under a false understanding of what hypnosis can actually provide, with anything involving imagery it can provide a dream (like the kind one has in REM sleep) and it is no more potent than a dream.

There's TV hypnosis which is all watches, baubles, candles, and complete control over will, and then there's actual hypnosis which involves none of that. Real hypnosis isn't very powerful at all, and it's all in the mind. This is why the script has to seem so potent in and of itself, for if we are to convince the mind in question to have any kind of dream, we must inspire it. The script is designed to be inspiring.

If you will, think of times when you've listened to a song, a really good one at that, you've let the lyrics sink into your mind and percolate, and then you've found yourself zoning out and visualising the story of those lyrics in your mind, and before you know it the song's ended and you find you've lost some time to that daydream. That's self-hypnosis, as real as any other form, and all hypnosis is self-hypnosis, all a hypnotist does is help people hypnotise themselves. And this is something that can only happens if they desire it, in a battle between hypnosis and will, the latter always wins out.

Wingman wrote:I realize I didn't mention it before, but it wasn't a "Your legs just got torn off." it was more of a "You don't have any legs any more.". I think that no one there realized that she really likes dancing, and that interacted badly with what was going on.

I understand that, and her passion for dancing intermixed with a fantasy like that must have been disturbing. But this is something I would like to stress to you and everyone reading; hypnosis can only provide a fantasy, never a reality, and it's a natural feature of our minds to be able to distinguish between the two.

What can hypnosis do, is there a relative example? There is. Dreams. If one was to wake from a nightmare about being in a car accident and go on to believe they'd had their legs amputated within the space of this nightmare, and then remember it after they've woken up, that would provide exactly the same effect as if one had been hypnotised into that scenario. The relationship is no different whatsoever.

Hypnosis is based upon the realm of the human mind, and what happens inside the human mind, it's all dreams and fantasy and has no impact on reality, and with any dream one can merely shake it off with a good night's sleep.

The reason I called the stage hypnotist a sick individual -- and I'll stand by that because I'm disgusted that anyone would try to do that -- is because I don't think that anyone should be forced to envision a nightmare. When we experience one under purely natural circumstances they're unpleasant enough, and to want to inflict them purposefully is just sick in and of itself, because it's imposing a type of suffering -- however temporary it may be -- and I don't like that.

But think of hypnosis as either a dream, a waking dream, or a mental prompt, these are its primary purposes. Hypnosis can be therapeutic because a person can be guided through or granted a dream or waking dream in the same way, but it can be a healing experience if it's a positive dream. Those who undergo the project will experience dreams, not reality, and it would be like dreaming of werewolves often at night.

And as amusing an irony as it is, I'm an individual who quite often has werewolf dreams. I wake up to reality the next day and I'm atually all the happier for the dream, the fantasy, it's given me something to keep in my head, an ideal, as any good dream would, and it makes me feel good. This is how therapeutic hypnosis works, it can induce mild changes in mood, even more mild prompts to behaviour, and imagery.

A hypnotist who is a practitioner of guided imagery is a weaver of dreams... nothing less, nothing more.

Wingman wrote:I wasn't actually referring to hypnotism being traumatizing, I was thinking about what happens afterwards, and how it may affect people on an individual level. To be perfectly frank here, if someone tries this to escape from their "human" life, they may not want to stop, and they may react badly if it works but they cannot "activate" it again by themselves. They'd be given one of their fondest wishes, so will they want to give it up?

I've covered most of this above, but there's something I'd like to stress here again. What we're giving them is a dream, not a reality. If they stopped having that dream, then it would simply be like not dreaming of something at night any more. It would be akin to a person waking from a werewolf dream and feelilng suicidal because they might not have one the next night.

I, along with a few others I know, have experienced werewolf dreams, and sometimes even long gaps between those dreams. And I'm still here, so are they. I don't think that there's any person who'd want to throw away their life simply because they weren't experiencing a dream any more, and what they'd be giving up is just that, a dream.

Moreover, the script could never permanently stop working, because that's not how the human mind works, the mind is easily inspired, and whilst it might become less effective for a time, eventually it'll become inspired and excited by the thought again and it'll work. The effectiveness is as fickle as the mind working with it, but it's a known thing with hypnosis that training makes the experience more likely and less erratic, and this happens with training.

Training helps ease the individual into the experience by not overwhelming them with a perfect dream every night, and the more they use the file, the more likely they are to have a nice dream whenever they use their trigger phrase. Again I'd like to point you to smoking courses, hypnotherapy in that area, and whom it works for. When it works for a person, listening to it will only help them keep up their prompts to not smoke.

What this whole project is about is giving people a dream no different than what they'd experience at night, while sleeping, but to be able to sometimes call up a portion of such a good dream on demand. It won't be perfect, and it'll take a lot of effort to get even a marginal result from it, but that's what real hypnosis is, it's work and training for that reward.

I think the reward is worth it, personally, and I don't think there's any danger involved with it at all. And these are all tenets of real hypnosis. I understand your concerns, I do, but I think they are a tad misguided, and perhaps a little misinformed by the fallacies propagated about hypnosis in various forms of media and fiction. It can happen to anyone, and I hope I've alleviated your concerns.

If you think there's still anything to be worried about, I'd invite you to pick up some resources on hypnosis and quote them so that I may be proved wrong, but I believe you'll find that the stance I have is correct. I say this because I don't want people being scared off by this idea, after all, it's like rumours... and rumours breed rumours.

In the end, no good can come of it.

I'd ask for a cessation of this in this thread anyway, if you wish to continue to air concerns in spite of all that we've gone over here, could you please create another thread for it? This is a thread for a Pack project, and I'd like people to be able to find things easily without having to go over pages and pages of a discussion which will inevitability yield little relevant information.

The only reason I'm asking this is because it's a disruption to the flow of the thread, and I'd like to keep this all on track. That's all.

All right, I've found some time (and a microphone) to make a rough draft. This is me, reading the script for the first time, so I might stumble once or twice throughout the recording. It's also allergy season, so pardon my nasally voice, if it's a bother. However, I think it will help us realize how the words translate from script to spoken word. It's almost 30 minutes long. Let me know if anyone actually "transforms."

Enjoy!

http://www.usaupload.net/d/rj9td9xidw3

If that's the rough draft, my expectations of the final product just went up. Very nice.

Sorry to have gone a roundabout way to this, Vagrant, but I was playing devil's advocate. I'm actually in favor of this, I just had a dastardly urge to prod you into making it look even better for everyone else. I humbly beg your apology, good sir.

Best of luck with this.

Edit, I'm listening to Gev's recording and I've noticed a few spots that could be improved.

At 18:05 in he says "Your head will become a little more wide." I think this would benefit from being changed to "Your head will become a little wider."

At 20:54, the bit about being quicker, but faster at running, seems unnecessary. Perhaps just having "you feel reflexively more able, your reactions and response times faster." would be better.

Also, rather than having the speaker remain quiet for a minute, why not separate the file into parts, so that the listener can choose when to move on. I understand the benefits of keeping it all together, but I think this is a place where it could be improved upon.

Excellent job, Gevaudan. For a first read you've already got much, much better dictation than the guy who did the original file. One thing I'd change though is to slow down a little bit, as some parts, while very well read, did seem a bit rushed.

This seemed to interfere slightly with the induction, which admittedly is an induction style that is very hard to nail down, but is supposedly very, very effective when done properly. So that part will probably have to be bounced around a bit to find the specifics of what to change...I'll throw it by Vagrant and see what he thinks if he hasn't seen this post yet.

During the transformation part especially this could also be key, since slowing down a bit and relishing in the details of the change a bit more could aid in the person's ability to visualize *with* you, while you're reading it.

Thanks for the feedback.

Wingman: I noticed that too. Sometimes as I was talking I would say a line, but then think to myself how awkward it sounded. It's all part of the process, I suppose. Whoever types the new draft should speak the lines before typing them to know if they're suitable for someone to read aloud.

Howlitzer: Yes, I rushed. I blame coffee. It's also going to be very hard to find a person willing to sit down and read something slowly for thirty minutes without falling into a trance himself! It's times like these that we need Morgan Freeman.

@Gev: yeah, though if it helps, the draft could have section dividers of some sort inserted....so you can record each chunk individually. It would likely be 2-3 chunks, The intro/induction, the main section, and the end bit after the silence.


If Vagrant appears online I'll poke him about this too, since he wrote the script and I really don't want to go chopping it up without notice.

I've been told I have a good voice. XD

Example here: http://malignant-librarian.deviantart.c ... -123294601

Can't record at this exact moment in time, the people upstairs are being really noisy and my mic is super-sensitive. xD

EDIT: Yeah, it's like I thought, way too much background noise this morning to make a draft. xD! If you guys are interested in another person trying out I'll record it later.

Malignant-Librarian wrote:I've been told I have a good voice. XD

Example here: http://malignant-librarian.deviantart.c ... -123294601

Can't record at this exact moment in time, the people upstairs are being really noisy and my mic is super-sensitive. xD

Hey, that's what I said, back when they first started asking around. They told me they were going to ask you.