Mating: Bitten WW vs Born WW

Lena · Post by **Lena** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:07 pm

Okay, I look for this and not see what I want.

Simple question, no? What is the genetics of a WW baby? Does a WW mate with a WW to make one or as say in WW the Apocolyse, only rare birth when WW mates with kinfolk(genetic carriers of WW doble recessive gene)?

Can bitten werewolf mate and breed a born werewolf?

I just think now this very complex now... Sorry.

nachoboy · Post by **nachoboy** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:59 pm

well yeah, me and my bro have been wondering these kinda things.

so, i guess that if a werewolf mates with another werewolf, the child is a werewolf. but still, there are more questions...

i mean, if a werewolf mates with a regular human, what is the offspring like?

or what if a werewolf mates with a regular wolf? is that possible? what kinda children would that make?

Vuldari · Post by **Vuldari** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 10:23 pm

I would say it totally depends on what version of werewolves you happen to be using or creating. There are just so many different variations in history/legend and various sources of fiction I would not even know where to begin.

As a matter of personal opinion though, my natural reaction is to say that if either parent is a werewolf, then the chances of the child being so as well would be very high, and even more certainly if both are. I don't like anything about "White Wolfs" version of how things work. Some of their werewolves glow in the dark for goodness sake...I don't know why so many people consider that games silly ideas a reasonable standard.

...on the other hand, I also hate absolutes, so even if two werewolves descended from two long lineages of werewolves had a child...there would always be at least a marginal chance that it might not inherit that at all and be a perfectly normal human. ...maybe a 0.7% chance... That's still almost one in 100.

That's what I think anyway.

Kirk Hammett · Post by **Kirk Hammett** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:20 am

I'm with Vuldari here (Seems to always have the same opinion that it matters what story you're writing on what you want to do

).

In most of my stories, the particular species I have is extremely rare because they rarely have live offspring, or the offspring are deformed or half animal half human and stuck that way, or some other deformity. (Might not always be a bad deformity). The 'normal' werewolves however have a much higher rate of surviving offspring. Their biology is different to the rare one anyway.

I don't really have mine mating with full wolves, or full humans, because I've never had that in a storyline. I haven't thought about it or anything. I'm not really one for full wolf mating with werewolf, although maybe mating with a human (so I guess with a wolf might be magically possible), but there only being a small chance the offspring survives or is a werewolf. The offspring might be stronger but not have the werewolf shifting genes, but since I assume a lot of genes would go into shifting, they'd have some, but maybe it only takes one not to be there, for the entire shifting thing to be impossible for the offspring.

Personally I'd hate to be writing about a non shifting character but that's entirely up to you as the writer. I like mine to be pure bred.

Other deal is, I assume mine are different species to humans, therefor they actually cannot interbreed at all. If bitten, they might be able to for two generations, but most of my born ones, are actually a completely different species to humans. And the particular species I use which are different to other werewolves (which also exist in my stories) is not a bitten species, it's a genetic, evolved species not formed by biting and they can't transmit their species by biting.

I'm sorry I've probably confused everybody! Anyhow these are just my stories

if I write a werewolf story.

maroondragon · Post by **maroondragon** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 1:42 am

i also agree with Vuldari. i belive that if one parent carries a ww trait than the offspring will inherit it. a ww mating with a ww equals a pure ww. a ww with a human may water down sum of the genes. but as stated above different species of ww's would effect what traits the child gets. for example in the movie ginger snaps the ww gene is like a virus and can effect anyone making them and the offspring a full blown werewolf. but with all the verions of werewolves out there who knows. Vuldari may be right on the fact that one in a hundred children born to ww crossings may not get the gene.

deruty · Post by **deruty** » Sat Dec 09, 2006 12:30 pm

Another with Vuldari. It really depends on what your oppinion on the actual genetic traits of a werewolf to begin with and secondly genetics being a science wouldn't really apply very well since scientifically werewolves are non-existant.

Then again....I might be wrong on the whole matter to begin with so yeah -.-

Faolan Ruadh · Post by **Faolan Ruadh** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 2:05 pm

If we're going with the viral lycanthropy model, the heritability of lycanthropy would depend on the specifics of the virus. If you think of the lycanthropy virus as something that somehow permanently edits a person's genetic code, then it is likely to be heritable in part or in whole if both parents are also werewolves. The situation would be complicated in an interesting way by the possibility of recessive alleles (some people would genotypically carry the codes for lycanthropy but not phenotypically manifest any werewolf characteristics), incomplete dominance (some people manifest some werewolf traits, but not others) and all sorts of things like that. Given that real-life genetic matters start with Mendelian squares and get progressively more complicated- for example, in humans, five different genes are responsible for eye color- there would be all sorts of room for strangeness and variation.

On the other hand, if you're looking at viruses as they exist in the real world, it's not a foregone conclusion that lycanthropy would be heritable. It would really depend on the specific nature of the virus. Many viruses either cannot pass through the placental barrier, or can't do it in every case. For example, the HIV virus only passes from an infected mother to her unborn baby about 50% of the time without drug therapy (and about 12% of the time when the mother's taking AZT).

So really, like most questions of this nature, it's a matter of deciding what kind of werewolf you want, and then building an internally consistant explanation for why it's the way it is.

Anubis · Post by **Anubis** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:07 pm

I don't like the cross breeding thing. Werewolves mating with humans to get a werewolf baby. I don't like that idea, because i think human and werewolves are too different genetically to make a baby. to me it's like trying to mate an random animal to get a furry. it doesn't happen,

In my world of R.A.B.I.D, WOLF, USWSF.....Ahhhh!... I've made so many name changes i forgot what I'm calling it now!

Any way the werewolves in there cannot mate with a human to reproduce so they have to get bitten and become a werewolf to mate with a werewolf, but if the lover bit the human. Their genetics would be close enough to be first cousins, resulting in some birth defects. So they have to get bitten by a third party werewolf that is out side of the family of the lover's to prevent that.

And i really don't think that there is a significant deference between born and bitten weres for it to count in breeding terms.

White Paw · Post by **White Paw** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 6:27 pm

two werewolves ating ...yeah..i can see that....bt a human and a were. no.....i dont see that happening

Faolan · Post by **Faolan** » Sun Dec 10, 2006 10:18 pm

I've actually done quite a bit of thinking on the subject for a comic I was writing, I see it as follows:
A Born Werewolf has the ability to change from a young age about 14 or puberty, their body is able to adapt to the change much easier than someone who gets bitten. A born WW comes from parents who both carry the genetic coding (like Faolan Ruadh said with the Mendelian squares and such) the parents don't necessarily have to be WW themselves but it offers a higher chance of producing a WW child, think of it like colorblindness parents can both be carriers of the chromosome and don’t necessarily have to be colorblind to give it to a child, but if the parents say have numerous children only one may have the trait. As far as bitten goes the gene would be passed through blood/fluid (in some cases) transfer (I don't want to say it but kind of like aids or hepatitis) the shift is more painful for someone who is bitten because their body is not prepared for the change and also leads to a high fatality rate in people who are bitten, a better chance of survival for some one who is bitten is if they contain WW genetic lineage but lack the gene necessary for the transformation.

But that’s just how I see it.

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Mon Dec 11, 2006 10:25 pm

Okay: Let's settle on a few things, like Mendel's law (Gregor Mendel, a monk that figured out genetic possibilities from breeding snapdragons).
Given: A (dominant) and b (recessive) for two mated whatevers, you'd get AA, Ab, Ab, bb as offspring, or; Two chances out of four that the offspring will have mixed genetic data, with the Dominant A being the active factor in the genes: The child will Look like A, but have b hidden and inactive. There will be one chance in four that you will get a Pure AA, or a bb child.
In simple terms; for each child, there will be three chances the child have "Brown Hair" (A). There will be one chance in four that the child will have "Blonde" hair (b).
This is just for one set of competing genes, mind you. Let's assume that the Werewolf option is contained in 1% of the total genetic load. Most of the genetic material will go to things like bones and organs and stuff that both Were's and Humans share. That 1% will act like an election. If the Werewolf geneset has one more pairing of genetic material than the Human does, the kiddie will be a Werewolf. Vicea-versa, if there's one more pairing on the Human side, the child will be human in appearance.
If you could squeeze the Werewolf genetic information into one percent of the total Genome, then Werewolf-ness would be a RACE of Humanity.
Frankly, the math is hairy. Let's stay with Disney genetics: Some would be Werewolf, and some would be human. IF both Were's were Bite Werewolves, chances would be three chances the kid would be Human to one chance of Fuzzyness.
If, on the other hand, Were'ness is a Dominant-Competetive geneset with Humanity, then it would be 50/50 on the child's nature.
Let's say that one of the Parents is a five generation Werewolf, and the other is a bite-Werewolf. Then the odds would favor them having a Were' child by 75/25.
If both are five-generation Were's, then the odds of a Were' child are either 50/50 or 87.5/12.5; depending in which scales you use, Mendel or Bourne.
Frankly, it's a mess. Reproduce and agree to live with the offspring, whatever it is.
The only way for there to be NO offspring is if the protein coating on either the sperm or egg wasn't compatible with the other. That's why Humans and Chimps are infertile, according to in-vitro tests....that is, I think, a good thing.
Now, there IS a possibility that the mating between a Human and a Were' might mule out, as in sterile offspring. Since we're speaking of Fantasy here, let's just rule that out. They're all fertile.
Now, to put my shoes back on. Higher math is a pain.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Wed Dec 13, 2006 7:27 am

Well. . . Technically I don't think a werewolf could mate with a human, but only in the sense that lycanthropy could be transmitted by mating. If lycanthropy can be transmitted via a bite or a scratch, it should also affect the more *ahem* intimacy-associated bodily fluids.

There's also no reason a bitten werewolf shouldn't be able to produce a born werewolf. The process by which he became a werewolf in the first place is less realistic than the assumption that he'll father a werewolf.

Lena · Post by **Lena** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 12:20 am

I am think that perhaps a "hybrid" werewolf mating would show as human, if two of these hybrids get together and have babies, (stay with Mendel and simple math) perhaps 1 baby would be born werewolf and others carry differnt levels of hybridism.

If werewolf is a disease spreading by virus an 'infected' can perhaps pass this on in the body fluids, so perhaps even turn this almost to STD. Now this not always true, some women with HIV who are pregnant do not pass the HIV to the develope fetus, so a 'virus infection' from mother to fetus would be treated same way and not happen either. (But could transmitting through breastmilk if an 'infected' mother nurses a baby.)

I still think the born werewolf (and natal infected as well any werecreature actually) would manifest at puberty or shortly after onset of this.

darkest wolf · Post by **darkest wolf** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 1:10 am

Hmm...using Mendel's theory of genetics on pea plants, huh? I guess it's somewhat supported but what if the trait is carried on several different alleles for example blood type. Then there would be a chance for it not to show up. But your idea is kind of interesting. I like it.

*Busts out his old text-books.*

Lena · Post by **Lena** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 11:47 am

Would not the the major occurring probability remain pretty close if even you have 2, 4 or more alleles (I know the hybrid percents would be skewed broadly, but I HATE and loathe maths fiercely). It is not like Weres have triple helix DNA or something alien and that exotic.

Wow, I like FFs spell checks.

redwolfmoon · Post by **redwolfmoon** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 3:56 pm

Personally, though the thought of a lycan baby is cute in my mind, I feel that a werewolf would be staral. Male werewolves shoot blanks and, although her eggs are still viable, females continually miscarry. To answer the odd question, what about egg donation? Since females never make new eggs, they are never restored periods, they would be human eggs. Since there is so much involed in shifting, so much cellular changing, I firmly believe a juvenile infected with Lycanthropy would prove fatal. That's how I feel in the matter.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:37 pm

redwolfmoon wrote:Personally, though the thought of a lycan baby is cute in my mind, I feel that a werewolf would be staral. Male werewolves shoot blanks and, although her eggs are still viable, females continually miscarry. To answer the odd question, what about egg donation? Since females never make new eggs, they are never restored periods, they would be human eggs. Since there is so much involed in shifting, so much cellular changing, I firmly believe a juvenile infected with Lycanthropy would prove fatal. That's how I feel in the matter.

Being sterile would be like, bad. It would complicate the process the keeping of a healthy WW population to hell. You gotta go infect people when the population drops. And when you turn people, you're turning fully grown human beings - being with developed minds and bodies, as opposed to producing undeveloped (and thus, impressionable) little kids with no ability to turn on you and kill you in your sleep for turning them into a 'monster'.

Frankly, I think if a WW guy/gal gets with a human, they just produce a human kid. Though, with a WW gal, it's likely the kid'll be a werewolf - umbilical cord and all that. But I don't think lycanthropy would be present in the er....'fluids' involved with sex as Terastas mentioned. That makes it far too transmissible.

I mean, think about it. Guy has lycanthropy, and goes out and does a prostitute. Now she's got it, goes out, and does some other 'clients'. Clients go out, do more people, etc. In a short time, you got an epidemic and the s*** hits the fan. Hard.

darkest wolf · Post by **darkest wolf** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 9:32 pm

Lena wrote:Would not the the major occurring probability remain pretty close if even you have 2, 4 or more alleles (I know the hybrid percents would be skewed broadly, but I HATE and loathe maths fiercely). It is not like Weres have triple helix DNA or something alien and that exotic.

Wow, I like FFs spell checks.

No doubt about it. It's not about the amount of alleles, it's about the odds. When I was waaaaaaay bacl in elementary school we used a penny if the organism had two alleles for a certain trait, thus giving it a 50/50 chance. If you have four alleles there's a 25% chance for a certain trait. So on and so forth.

Alright I've babbled enough...

RedEye · Post by **RedEye** » Fri Dec 29, 2006 12:01 am

Shifting fantasy into reality with Math.
My guess is that Lycanthropy might be a safety system to continue the race... Lycanthropy as a recessive gene that has been Virally transmitted might also be a simple genetic trait, viz:
Currently, the Human race, or the "Smooths" is in a top position genetically simply because their children survive better. Whether it's due to toughness or medical ability, Smooths are the top Predatory life form on the planet. I'm not saying they're the most numerous, or the best all around predator; just that they have "the right stuff" to occupy the planet's highest position in their control of their environment, management of food supply, support of population...that sort of stuff.
Wasn't always so.
Once there were Neadnerthals in that spot. They were perfectly adapted to the world they lived in, and were the top lifeform for longer than we've been around. Homo Sapiens was restricted to the warm areas of the planet.
Then the world changed, and it became warmer all over. The very fabric of survival was changed and the Neanderthals were out of the running, and eventually became extinct. There is some possibility that the Neanderthal genome remains in us, provided they were cross-fertile with their replacements, Homo Sapiens.
The jury is still out on that one: DNA only lasts so long after death.
Could Werewolves be a genetically viable species of Human? Yes....provided that their babies were tougher than our babies and more of them lived to reproduce than ours did.
That's Evolution, in a nutshell: Babies being born and living to reproduce their specific geneset. The most prolific ones that survive are the pattern that will emerge.
Does that mean that the Werewolf could take over? No. But: given the right circumstances-exactly the right circumstances-a human that looked like a Werewolf would evolve.
What circumstances? The ones that produced the Wolf out of the primitive dog, plus the ones that produced us; and only those. Kinda' narrow, but it could happen.
I'm not holding my breath...altho' they could have already happened...
Fur is good protection from U.V., and Fur is a good insulator at keeping heat out as well as in.
That's the problem with fantasy vs. reality: Fantasy is what should have happened, or should be happening. Reality is what actually did happen, or is happening.
If they were genetically compatible...Yes, Were's could make human babies that had the potential.
But it would take a long time....a very long time...

23Jarden · Post by **23Jarden** » Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:37 am

Not to mention, I think the general idea is that there aren't very many WW. So, if they constantly mated with other WW, that'd eventually be interbreeding and bad. You'd get alot of screwy werewolves on your hands. So, it would always be good to get "fresh " so to speak.

Silverwolfman · Post by **Silverwolfman** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:20 pm

WW mating with eachother would produce a pureblood werewolf with less human in them. they would appear human but they would be less human on the inside. bitten werewolves could do that and make a pure strain like i said, but like in werewolf apocolypse rare breeds of pure werewolves would happen. but thats my opinion doesnt matter how it was made, a werewolf is a werewolf.

Werewolf-Kin · Post by **Werewolf-Kin** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:15 pm

i am here to ask you guys, who here is WW born and who is WW bitten. i am just curious.

im going to let you guys know that i am WW born. my mon and my dad arnt one but one of my ancesters was a werewolf. i just wish i could learn about my ancestor(s). and there is one thing that i must ask, im just a little confused.

are we weak against silver? or is that a myth? so i can know about my future and stuff. i dont really eat anyways. eating is a hard thing when it comes to me. so if anyone could tell me i would appreciate it.

P.S. i love the taste of flesh... one you taste it, its hard to go back.

Silverwolfman · Post by **Silverwolfman** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:36 pm

i know the feeling there but some lycans are weak against silver others can wear it such as chains or jewelry as long as it stays away from open wounds. but nything that strucks any organs especially the heart or severs the spine. halfbreed here. not really werewolf but not really vampire either. sorta like the hybrid in underworld without the ability to change. also i have a question. though being turned wolf requires birth or bite but what if someone tried turning themselves using wolf's blood? does anyone think it would be possible? just curious.

Werewolf-Kin · Post by **Werewolf-Kin** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:37 am

Silverwolfman wrote:i know the feeling there but some lycans are weak against silver others can wear it such as chains or jewelry as long as it stays away from open wounds. but nything that strucks any organs especially the heart or severs the spine. halfbreed here. not really werewolf but not really vampire either. sorta like the hybrid in underworld without the ability to change. also i have a question. though being turned wolf requires birth or bite but what if someone tried turning themselves using wolf's blood? does anyone think it would be possible? just curious.

well i dont know for sure but in wikipedia says that there are different ways but i dont know if they are true.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf#B ... a_werewolf

Silverwolfman · Post by **Silverwolfman** » Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:41 pm

well wikipedia is a site that allows others to put in things that maybe true and other stuff that may not be true so i dont know. i'll find out later though.

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