Lets make a werewolf game... FOR REAL!!

[Guest]

Im still opposed to doing mods, I've worked on them before and I dislike them. One major point to remember is the XNA framework has done a massive job of simplifying the work of 3d games. Working through tutorial 2, I've got a fully textured spaceship with lightsourcing in about 10 lines of code, two of which controlled camera. This thing has done what M$ promised, made creating 3d games really easy (from what I've seen so far).

So for the final time. Unless someone else is willing to do the coding, I'm using XNA. Its very easy to use and so far looks to be able to do everything I'm thinking would need to go in there. So before everyone gives up and says we should use somebody else's engine because its too tricky, wait and see what I can produce first. If I cant do it, then I'll let you know and *then* you can start talking about another way to do the project.

I'm the coder, let me worry about how complex the code is going to be.

I like Kaebora's idea of having a 1st/3rd person camera too. That would work.

[Anubis]

Okay lets see what DarkGoat comes up with first then we'll make a decision from there.

[Vuldari]

Im still opposed to doing mods, I've worked on them before and I dislike them. One major point to remember is the XNA framework has done a massive job of simplifying the work of 3d games. Working through tutorial 2, I've got a fully textured spaceship with lightsourcing in about 10 lines of code, two of which controlled camera. This thing has done what M$ promised, made creating 3d games really easy (from what I've seen so far).

So for the final time. Unless someone else is willing to do the coding, I'm using XNA. Its very easy to use and so far looks to be able to do everything I'm thinking would need to go in there. So before everyone gives up and says we should use somebody else's engine because its too tricky, wait and see what I can produce first. If I cant do it, then I'll let you know and *then* you can start talking about another way to do the project.

I'm the coder, let me worry about how complex the code is going to be.

I like Kaebora's idea of having a 1st/3rd person camera too. That would work.

http://msdn.microsoft.com/xna/

Making a videogame is really, really hard no matter how you do it. However, I've never heard of this XNA network thing, which is discouraging to me. If it is really so great, I'd think I would have heard of an awesome game or two that was created with it. (...maybe I have, and the XNA base was just never mentioned.)

My previous (very limited) experience with mods (Half-life and Morrowind) has been frustrating too...but I fail to see how starting with nothing would make anything easier.

May I ask what previous modding projects you worked on that makes you so opposed to following that route?




Anyway...I'm going to have to read up on this XNA thing and see what it's all about.

[Anubis]

The full version just barely came out on the market just last month (I doubt any one is that fast to make a commercial computer/video game)

[Vuldari]

The full version just barely came out on the market just last month (I doubt any one is that fast to make a commercial computer/video game)

Hunh...well, then I guess we'll all find out if it's all its cracked up to be or not in the near future.







*Notices it's made by Microsoft...Shudders...*

[Guest]

Some friends and I did a quake 2 mod back when it first came out. None of us bothered doing it again.

The full version of XNA hasn't come out yet. Currently they are on Beta 2, which seems to run well enough. They've said your not allowed to sell any games written with betas though.

[Vuldari]

Some friends and I did a quake 2 mod back when it first came out. None of us bothered doing it again.

The full version of XNA hasn't come out yet. Currently they are on Beta 2, which seems to run well enough. They've said your not allowed to sell any games written with betas though.

Now...I'm not saying that this XNA thing is bad or anything, because it sounds like it is a very powerful and versatile set of programs, and it might just be the best way to go.

However, you mentioned two things that I think I should respond to.



#1: Making Mod's for a game that just came out (just as I was trying to mod Half-Life, back when that game was still considered NEW), will inevitably be harder because the tools are still buggy and beta, and no one knows what they are doing yet.

If you Mod a game that is already 3-10 years old, you will be able to find boundless resources and tutorials on the optimization of modding that game, as well as multiple 3rd party programs that assist in importing resources from other programs (such as photoshop, 3D studio Max, Blender, etc.) as well as the stability of the game engine having gone through years of patches already, making it a more reliable base in that respect.

You may not find that much help in a "Beta" program that is only a month old.



#2: Licensing and Distribution. How are you intending on making the game available once it is finished? Licensing the use of the game engine for widespread distribution can be very complicated and/or expensive.

Mod's are much simpler in that respect. As long as the user/player already owns a copy of a different game running on that engine, mods can be distributed license Fee FREE (as long as you distribute it that way too).

A total conversion mod is no more subject to license infringement than importing a single custom character or weapon or stage, as long as you give it away for free. (I think...I'm sure there are exeptions, depending on game content)



On the other hand, there are undoubtably a great many graphical and technical things you can do with the open-ended XNA program set and framework that just would not be possible or practical to try and recreate using the HL1 or Quake 2, etc. engines. If the ambitions of this project extend beyond the capacities of decade old (yet patched and updated) technology, then using the newest, best and greatest resources available would surely be recommended. (Assuming you are skilled enough to work on the 'Bleeding Edge' of modern technology...which I know I'm not.)



This is not MY project though, so the final decision is not mine to make. I don't want to hold this project back by insisting upon using outdated technology. I'm just giving my 2-cents (plus a $1.50 interest) on the subject.

[Guest]

#1: Making Mod's for a game that just came out (just as I was trying to mod Half-Life, back when that game was still considered NEW), will inevitably be harder because the tools are still buggy and beta, and no one knows what they are doing yet.

Yeah q2 sucked at that stage. I just generally didnt enjoy the experience. Ive already signed up to the XNA forums and have been busy reading a massive list of tutorials from around the place. Given its based on c# and not some new language (plus the starter kits), I've probably got enough resources to keep me out of trouble for a fair while yet.

#2: Licensing and Distribution. How are you intending on making the game available once it is finished? For now, theres a limitation on not selling the product until the final XNA is out. Other than that, can do whatever we feel like with it. Havent thought about after its done, figured I'd check with the others. As far as I'm aware, theres no licensing fee's associated with XNA (except the 360 creators club, which I've already signed up too), its designed for homebrew / casual use.

Mods are much simplier to release, as long as your willing to buy 20 different games to play 20 different mods. I dont really buy every game as it comes out, and it annoys me everytime I find a mod that sounds interesting that I have to consider spending a heap of cash to simply check out if the mods as good as they say. With XNA, you have to download a 1.2mb framework file and have a damn good video card (which anyone who plays games these days has to have anyway) then you can play anything. I like that I can easily port my code to the 360, cause thats what I mainly use for games anyway.

[Vuldari]

For now, theres a limitation on not selling the product until the final XNA is out. Other than that, can do whatever we feel like with it. Havent thought about after its done, figured I'd check with the others. As far as I'm aware, theres no licensing fee's associated with XNA (except the 360 creators club, which I've already signed up too), its designed for homebrew / casual use.

Interesting...how very not like Microsoft... Normally they try to milk everyone for every penny they have, just for the honor of using something with their brand name on it.

Mods are much simplier to release, as long as your willing to buy 20 different games to play 20 different mods. I dont really buy every game as it comes out, and it annoys me everytime I find a mod that sounds interesting that I have to consider spending a heap of cash to simply check out if the mods as good as they say.

I don't know of 20 different game engines that are popular to mod. Just ... Half-Life(1-2) Quake(series), Unreal(series), Battlefield 1942...and maybe a couple others I can't think of. I don't buy every game that comes out either. But this is irrelevant if you choose a game that is cheap and easily available...or one that many of us already have.

With XNA, you have to download a 1.2mb framework file and have a damn good video card (which anyone who plays games these days has to have anyway) then you can play anything. I like that I can easily port my code to the 360, cause thats what I mainly use for games anyway.

See...a high percentage of THE PACKs members do NOT have a "Damn Good Video Card", or will be able to afford one any time soon...nor do alot of them have X-Box360s. (I fall under the category of niether right now).

Also...not one single person here (including myself) has any significant experience with creating a full blown videogame. ...and yet, here we are naively thinking that we can just leap right in and make a HIGH END, hardware intensive, Next Gen Hardware game as our first attempt...


Baby Steps.


Start with a low-polygon, HDR-less, Pre "Radiant AI" (etc...etc...) game engine that we can wet our feet with. Once we "learn to swim", THEN maybe we can think about making a sequel on a more advanced platform.


Besides...what fun would it be to make a game that requires SO MUCH graphical horsepower to run, if 60% of the pack could not even play it?



Again...that's just MY opinion.

[Anubis]

I was pulled between modding and starting from scratch using XNA.

But when i herd that you have to buy the game that we modded from, to play our game, and limiting our sales for only for the people who own a copy of that certain game. Also we can't sell it for cash without getting our butts sued. And there goes our chances of being compensated for our time and effort or a chance to donate the proceeds to a wolf park some where.

So starting from scratch and using XNA Game Studio sounds to be the best way to go.

Also i never expect it to be a next gen game like Gears of War. I'm aware that the creation of video games is extremely difficult and require a huge trained team, and not to mention MILLIONS of dollars to put together a game that we would play on a next gen console. I'm expecting it to look like a early play station game, and only from 1 to 3 levels long

Now since we have over come that hurtle what about style? I'm thinking of Third person shooter or third person RPG (or have it in a way that the player can choose)

[Kaebora]

I a man of summary. And I can sum up that XNA makes coding easier. If there is an easier way to make the game's visual content, let me know. Heh. I'm all for anything you guys come up with. I'm just paying attention to what would come down the pipeline to my desk. Modding, XNA, or whatever. That's really at the descretion of the coders, and what needs the game concept itself requires.

[Guest]

"See...a high percentage of THE PACKs members do NOT have a "Damn Good Video Card", or will be able to afford one any time soon...nor do alot of them have X-Box360s. (I fall under the category of niether right now). "

If you can play halflife 2, youve got a video card that can handle XNA. Its main specification is that it can handle shader 2.0. You dont have a 360, I've seen a fair few people on the forum who have. If they want to play it on it, good for them. Personally, I'd like to be able to play my games on my 360. Given I'm doing the coding (and Im the ONLY one doing the coding), Im allowed to decide what language I write the code in. Ive given my reasons several times over and I'm not budging. If you want to do mods, you can find another coder. If you want to help produce artwork for XNA based game, great. From your end, it doesnt matter what I write it in, the artwork or 3d or music or whatever still has to be in the same format.

Basically, good call Anubis.

Anyone who is worried they wont be able to run the game can check out the tech demos when I finish them and put them up on the net. If you can run those, you can run anything XNA can produce.

Starting from scratch with a powerful next gen framework is better than starting from scratch with someone elses next gen engine, then having to start over again anyway.

On style, I'd suggest doing an rpg-lite. Base rpg engine, based around a more shooter type scenario. The only thing Id say we cant do is let people design characters from inside the game. Dynamic modelling is something I dont want to start with.

[Anubis]

You know i think we should come up with the story line first. If we know what it's about then we can make a better desicion on what kind of style.

So lets get some ideas and see what we come up with.

Also i think it would be better if fig makes us a forum so we don't have to smash everything in one thread or take over the videogame forum.

[Guest]

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb203909.aspx

Just posting this because it shows how easy xna code is and also the fact that they actually have a tutorial on how to do a 3rd person camera system. Thats very cool.

[Kaebora]

"See...a high percentage of THE PACKs members do NOT have a "Damn Good Video Card", or will be able to afford one any time soon...nor do alot of them have X-Box360s. (I fall under the category of niether right now). "

Given I'm doing the coding (and Im the ONLY one doing the coding), Im allowed to decide what language I write the code in. Ive given my reasons several times over and I'm not budging. If you want to do mods, you can find another coder. If you want to help produce artwork for XNA based game, great. From your end, it doesnt matter what I write it in, the artwork or 3d or music or whatever still has to be in the same format.

On style, I'd suggest doing an rpg-lite. Base rpg engine, based around a more shooter type scenario. The only thing Id say we cant do is let people design characters from inside the game. Dynamic modelling is something I dont want to start with.

My video card is a top notch ATI FireGL. I don't think I'm the only one with a good video card.

And the choice of what programming code to use is probobly up to Anubis since it was his idea to do this thing. Please don't try to take over the project he started. I also would love to see XNA used. A knowlageable coder can produce game code with that program many times faster than when modding in my opinion. However, saying that you will not help us if we don't use XNA is kind of mean. They want to use Blender for 3D work. (A really cheaply made program.) I'm trying to be flexible like always and am learning a new platform, making it the fourth 3D graphics program I've been learning. When working with the harsh reality of gaming companies, it's their way or the highway. I guess its still up to you if you stay on or not anyways. I'm just saying we need to keep it on a suggestion level. We can't demand anything. We do want suggestions from someone with programming experiance, but we may need more than just one option. XNA is one programming solution, so are you at all knowlageable in any others?

Lastly, I hope you aren't considering doing an RPG game. There will never be enough time or manpower to pull that off. Using an RPG engine for a shooter is a bit iffy though. For what purpose would that serve? That's my only question about it.

By the way Anubis, before asking for your own forum section, wait until you are absolutely sure this game will happen. It's just planning stages right now, and half of everyone is unsure about actually doing work on it.

[Guest]

I'm not trying to take over anybody's project. The first post where I offered to help I said I could do coding, but that I was planning to do it in XNA. I could have walked in, told everyone my game design and tried to take charge, but I'm not interested in doing that.

Saying that I'm being "mean" because I wont budge on XNA is kinda redundant. I have been willing to look at other options, but so far none that will help me with my own goals. Remember, I'm doing this for kicks. At work, when I'm given a project I write it in whatever is specified using whatever tools are demanded. I will write things standing on my head while whistling the star spangled banner backwards if I'm getting paid for it. This project, I am doing because I want to. I expect to be given freedom in certain areas to accomplish my own goals, as long as they dont go against the project. If I think they will, I will talk with Anubis about it.

I also posted saying that XNA was capable of importing most model formats, so basically the only one who has to learn anything new at this stage is me, and I've spent the last week working hard to get up too speed as quickly as possible. At this stage, I should be on target to post those tech demo's this weekend. My very first post stated what I wanted to do. If nobody agrees with it, then I wont bother going any further.

So far, Ive been writing code mainly in delphi, because thats what we use at work. Ive been writing user apps for four years now, as well as working on my own home theater program independently because I wanted too. That combined with the research I've spent the last six months doing make me feel confident I can write a game in whatever language I want. If anyone has too many problems with this, I have other projects that I dont need to be part of a team to do.

Lastly, you seem to have some odd ideas about RPG's and their size. I say rpg elements, I'm planning to give the character stats. As they kill things, they can jump further and hit harder. Its not hard to do, it's basically just using some fractions to calculate a few sums before you take away hitpoints from the bad guy.

[Vuldari]

I'm really sorry that I've been so obnoxious about this.


As it stands today, my computer can NOT run Half Life 2 very well, or Oblivion at all. (It used to, but my Good Card burned out, and I can't afford to replace it) I know I am not the only one in that boat.


I have been thinking about creating my own Game Mod for a long time, and when I noticed that so many games Wont run on my computer, but everything made with the original Half-Life engine (some of which look pretty nice) run smooth as can be, even on my mothers old Pentium II machine, I concluded to myself that, if I was ever going to do it, I would use that. The fact that I had already briefly introduced myself to that game environment (with my early mod attempts) sealed the deal in my mind.

I knew that, if I made it, everyone I know already owns Half Life or CounterStrike, and has a computer that runs them just fine. No one needs to buy a new Graphics Card (or a new Computer), and whomever does not have the right software can buy it anywhere for $9.99 or less. SELLING said game was never part of my train of thought. ...I just assumed to put it online for FREE download.


If this was My project...that would be what we would use...and it would be a FPS that plays essentially like a Werewolf Themed version of some other HL mod, but with unique levels and it's own story and characters. That may not be the coolest idea in the world, but I know it would be doable, without gobs of re-coding and whatnot. From my perspective, that seemed the best project to use as my first game mod. (Well...except I had not planned on Werewolves being the theme originally)


...but this is NOT my project...



I'm not going to hold anyone back, just because I am less ambitious than the rest of you.



(If I ever start feeling industrious however, I might just start working on a "Pack" themed CounterStrike Mod on the side, with all werewolf Player models, and projectile Duckies as selectable weapons...maybe as grenades...)

[Anubis]

I personally don't have a great computer either, it struggels when it tries to play a game like quake 4. We can't go all out on graphics, because we don't have a choice, when they make those purdy next gen. games they have armies of modelers working to get every aspect right, and we don't have that luxury.

Kaebora you're right about making a forum for this thing. We need to get past the preporduction phase first before to see if this is even possible with such a small staff.

We should stick to something like an adventure, shooter, or platformer type of game, but to finalise the style we need to come up with the story. I have several ideas i'm working on, but i also want to see what every body else has to offer. I'll start another thread so we can still debate about planning production phase.

[Guest]

"If this was My project...that would be what we would use...and it would be a FPS that plays essentially like a Werewolf Themed version of some other HL mod, but with unique levels and it's own story and characters. That may not be the coolest idea in the world, but I know it would be doable, without gobs of re-coding and whatnot. From my perspective, that seemed the best project to use as my first game mod. (Well...except I had not planned on Werewolves being the theme originally) "

Another time, I'd probably join you on that just so I could say I'd done a mod (properly), if your ever interested. However at this stage, it wouldnt really help me in any way, just be another long drawn out project that I'd put aside because I have more pressing needs.

[Anubis]

EVERY BODY JUST COOL IT!!!

DarkGoat was more than kind enough to volunteer for this, and I already said that were going to use XNA. Every body who is working on this has some creative control, if they think it'll further the game. Every one here has the right to give constructive criticism, and give ideas.

This is a bunch of friends getting together to create a game in their free time, with no dead lines. we are not going any were with this fighting.

[Vuldari]

EVERY BODY JUST COOL IT!!!

DarkGoat was more than kind enough to volunteer for this, and I already said that were going to use XNA. Every body who is working on this has some creative control, if they think it'll further the game. Every one here has the right to give constructive criticism, and give ideas.

This is a bunch of friends getting together to create a game in their free time, with no dead lines. we are not going any were with this fighting.

I'm not "Fighting", or trying to take control of this in any way.

I was just giving advice based on what made the most sense to me.


I really had not gotten the impression yet that it had been Definately decided that XNA was going to be used. Everything has just seemed 'maybe', 'probably'...'could'...'should'...but never "WILL".


This project can not move forward until decisions are made. Just remember Anubis...as team leader on this, once you make a decision, make sure your team members know...and the decision is Clear.


Who: (Modelers, Coders, Designers, etc.) Anubis, DarkGoat ... ? ?

What: (Game Type, Story, Characters) ? ?

How: (Tools, Game Engine, etc. ) XNA


...that's one choice down...several more to go. One of the hardest decisions to make, as team leader, might just be:

WHEN:

Once the production phase begins, you will need to give each team member a timeframe in which to get a task done. The Texture artist will need to know the layout of the stages being created in order to know what to make. The Stage Designer will need to know the story theme and objectives of the game in order to know what kind of stage to create. ...and the lead designer will need to know what the whole team wants to do before he/she can write the story and objectives. ...etc...etc...

If any one team member decides to take their time, or procrastinates their task too long, the whole project will come to a screeching halt...and if it is dragged out too long, the project will grow old and tired over time and some members may loose interest in it. That would be a very disappointing end to all of this.


Since you are the one who initiated this effort, and seem to be taking the leadership role here, it will be up to you Anubis to keep everything organized, and all your team members On-Track.


Keep up the great enthusiasm and ambition. Your team (once it is assembled) will need to know you are taking this seriously. ...and when a decision has been made, announce it, and be confident in your, and your teams decision.


Good Luck.

[Kaebora]

I'm keeping it cool. Relax. I only said it seemed extreme to say its XNA or nothing. Dispite that view, I agree that XNA is a good idea for a small project.

I'm going to keep clear of the pre-production phase. I'll read what you guys come up with, and perhaps help with fine tuning some of the concepts you come up with. Inevitably I will indeed help with concept art for characters, objects, levels, and related things. If I interfere too much, I might put too much technical concern in front of artistic expression like I sometimes do. I'd rather work out the kinks as the concepts come down the pipeline.

I'll probobly end up putting a secret "designer's footprint" in one or two of the maps. It's a little joke that the designers sometimes do for fun, like a messege or strange object in a hard to reach area. Or would that make someone mad?


I'm already in the process of making a 3D model of a basic werewolf for another project in Maya. I will reuse the basic untextured version that can be converted into multiple file formats for other programs. Unfortunately, texture data does not convert with model filetypes between today's software. We wont face too much problems with file conversions since we will need to be using UV Texture Mapping. A technique that reduces file size and loading times for real-time 3D rendering engines in games. It would be as easy and streching a skin around an object as long as you keep the files unaltered during the transfer.

Well, that's all of the 3D tecnhical issues I can think of right now that could be addressed before beginning work.

[deruty]

Think I just missed the heat of the argument, but I'd like to point out that the OGRE graphcs engine can also ...render a spaceship with light. in a relatively easy setup also. If we're really concerned about graphics OGRE doesn't require super high end graphics cards. It runs fine on a Radeon 9000 (roughly $100-130 on the market) I'd try it on some lower end ones, but I haven't got export and import worked out yet I'm just saying XNA doesn't "have" to be the one way we can go. There are plenty of options out there. What I'm worried about is how limited XNA might be. I mean lets face it they can only make it so easy without some kind of limitation.

---subject changing---

I think a hidden developers footprint would be nice. Most developers stick one in themselves, although some don't show up as easily as others. For example in Halo the level designer added a secret room/corridor, the sound developer (a job which we completely forgot about up until now) put little hidden sound tracks in secret locations, and the model/art designer had alot of fun putting his birth date in several locations.


Yeah so we seemed to have forgotten sound....

[Guest]

I've decided to pull out of this project. I've seen a few people say they may be able to do some light work, and other than that just everybody want to argue with me over my only decision. Any other time, I'd probably enjoy that but I feel that I've got other projects that I'd be better served spending my time focusing on.

I hope you guys do make a werewolf game, it will be interesting to see what a werewolf by committee game comes out like.

[Morkulv]

When using 3D-engine:

- Avoid any H&L-parts
- Avoid anything containing pixelshaders
- Avoid 'true' bumpmapping

And the game should run fine on pretty much every PC, and it can still look good.