Hard question. Body parts and transformation

[Silver]

This is a hard one and if you're squeamish, please look the other way. I haven't found this in any discussion, so, Fig, if the topic exists, point me to it.

If a WW is in Gestalt form and, say, looses a hand while he's still alive. Doe the hand stay in Gesalt form or does it go back to the original form?

Any body part - what happens if it's separated from the host while the host is in Gestalt form?

[Fang]

I think It would revert as the WW needs some degree of subconcious controll and as the nerves in said body part are severed from main brain activity said body part would revert.

[lupine]

As I understood it from legend, whether it be hollywood or folklore, the hand or severed item would change back to human form.

[Figarou]

This is a hard one and if you're squeamish, please look the other way. I haven't found this in any discussion, so, Fig, if the topic exists, point me to it.

*points*
http://www.thepack.network/thepackboard ... .php?t=222
I think there is more posts out there. That one above talks about the death of a werewolf. I remember talking about reverting back to human form in that thread.

If a WW is in Gestalt form and, say, looses a hand while he's still alive. Doe the hand stay in Gesalt form or does it go back to the original form?

Any body part - what happens if it's separated from the host while the host is in Gestalt form?

Ok....this goes back to the other theory. "Who is in control? The virus? or the host?

If the virus is in control of the shift. I'd say it'll revert back to whatever form it started out as. (Human) The virus is still alive. It could stay alive just long enough to revert that severed part to its original form.

If the host is in control, then the severed hand will stay "as is" because he has no control of the shift since it's no longer a part of him.

That's my theory.

[Motsiewolf]

I think it would stay in the form it was in last cause the control was severed from the brain, so it wouldn't be changed back by the brain. There would be no control to make it change back.

[RedEye]

Perhaps there's a dimension unexplored here: Total Damage.

If, let's say, the Were' sticks his/ her hand into a spinning fan and loses fingers, I'd expect they'd stay as-is, due to the amount of living matter involved.

Now, let's move up and remove the hand at the wrist. More living tissue, and more blood=a longer time for the severed extremity to "die", and at least a possibliity of reversion.

More Flesh: the Forearm. Much more tissue, more "linger" time, and a likely complete reversion.

Last: the bloodiest single part of the body that's "severable": the Head. Lots and lots of blood and lots of time for reversion to occur.

Modifiers: Heat: The hotter it is, the faster the "linger" time is used up and the colder it is...well, people now use Ice for heart transplants as well as cold saline, to keep the heart alive for up to six hours after removal. And Werewolves would be more resilient than Smooths...

Here's an extra-credit question: What if a Werewolf's heart were transplanted into a non-Were'? (The Wolf was an organ donor). What about Skin?

All in all, I suspect that a case could be made for Vascularization (blood available) and temperature, as well as the amount of Adrenalin in the blood.

That's my two-bits worth.....

[Vuldari]

I think it would stay as-is, based on the way I imagine transformation would work.

The way I see it, a constant output of energy from the host is not required to maintain the bodies shape, regardless of what form it may be in.

It takes energy to change the bodies shape and then when the change is done...it's done. It requires a whole new process to change the body back into its previous form again. If it is severed from the body, there would be no signal for it to begin the reversion, nor would there be enough energy and life left in the severed limb to fuel the change all the way even if it did so automatically.

That is if it is biological in nature.


If magical, I think it would not be unreasonable to assume that, once life leaves the body (or part of it), the magic taking hold over it would dissipate and the effect would possibly be undone. ...depending on the nature of the spell/curse/enchantment/etc.

[Aki]

I'd say it would stay in what form it was when severed. Changing in the first place is hard, reversion doesn't strike me as something to happen just 'cause you lost a limb. I also saw it as something triggered by the werewolf. It wouldn't change back because it's cut off from the brain - which would be giving the 'Change back!' order.

It also makes a cool plot device.

I mean, hell, someone finding a human arm is bad - police will start snooping around, but if they find this wolf-human arm-thing, chances are some hunter's gonna show up looking for someone who's missing an arm.

[RedEye]

That would depend on what was the "reflex" form of the Organism.
IF: A Werewolf is Gestalt as the reflex form (base form) and the Human or Wulf is a modification of it, then it would likely stay as-is.
BUT: IF the Human remained the reflex form, then likely it would revert to human as it died.
Personally, I believe that after the Crossing, it's the Gestalt that becomes the base life form, with the Human and Wulf as willed modifications of that form. If the Were' turned from Human to Gestalt when they slept ( a nice plot device) I'd say the severed part wouldn't change. If, on the other hand, the Gestalt became Human when asleep, then likely the part would revert to Human.
And the hunters should all wear Elmer Fudd hunting caps in the movie!...

[Teh_DarkJokerWolf]

WOW!! Did anyone also realize both of these threads started on the same day? lol What r the odds of that happenin?


On the other note IMHO the hand would revert back to normal. The werewolf it's self is one an when one is separted from the other in any case it is no longer one therefore it can't have that same connection anymore..Kinda like the flu or a sickness you have it is in you till it dies, then your just good old healthy u again Or another thing..If you are born with an extra limb. Once it's severed it dies..Why? Because the source of life blood is no longer flowing through it..Nuff said

[Vuldari]

I still think that, regardless of what the cells in the body are pre-programmed to do when the body goes into a relaxed state, transformation (no matter what form it is starting at and which it is changing to) requires a great deal of energy and physical activity from the part of the body that is changing.

If the body part is severed...it's dead...and it is no longer capable of the act of transforming, even if it's dying cells are telling it to try.

So...though whatever tiny bit of activity that is left in the limb may begin the process to revert it to some other default form, it would expend all of its energy in the attempt and go COMPLETELY dead long before it could complete that final task.

IMHO

[Figarou]

I still think that, regardless of what the cells in the body are pre-programmed to do when the body goes into a relaxed state, transformation (no matter what form it is starting at and which it is changing to) requires a great deal of energy and physical activity from the part of the body that is changing.

If the body part is severed...it's dead...and it is no longer capable of the act of transforming, even if it's dying cells are telling it to try.

So...though whatever tiny bit of activity that is left in the limb may begin the process to revert it to some other default form, it would expend all of its energy in the attempt and go COMPLETELY dead long before it could complete that final task.

IMHO

Hmmmmm....I've been doing some more thinking about a severed body part reverting back to normal.

Here is 2 logical answers.

Ok.....transformations takes a lot of energy. What about maintaining the new form? That also could take some energy. Kind of like a balloon. You fill it with air and it expands. Without that air inside, it won't keep its new form. Release that air, and the balloon reverts back to its normal shape.

2nd....The body could act like "memory plastic." Shaping itself back to its normal state after the alteration is taken away.


Having it revert back could make a certain scene more dramatic. A werewolf dies....reverts back to normal...and you find out who it is. (We see this all the time)

The werewolf staying "as is" could be another matter. It dies....you wait to find out who it is....and nothing happens. "Hmmmm....... thats something new. Guess we won't find out who the werewolf is."


Heh...it would be difficult to find out "who it is" if it was just a body part. Unless there is a recognizable tattoo or something.


I say use whatever is best for that scene.

[Shadow Wulf]

I would imagine trasnforming and reverting back takes alot of energy from the body, so if the hand were to just get cut off and reverts back, where would the energy required to change back come from? I say it stays the same.

[Silverclaw]

I'm going to have to say: Stays in whatever form the ww was injured in. For reasons already stated by Vuldari.
Say a werewolf was walking happily through a forest, when all of the sudden, he steps into a steel bears trap! He is lucky though and only looses a few toes (lol) I really dont see them shifting back to human toes while the werewolf frantacly tries to find some ice
Same thing with dying. If a werewolf is in wolf form, shot in the head and skinned, I think they would just stay in the form they were last living in.

[Vuldari]

Same thing with dying. If a werewolf is in wolf form, shot in the head and skinned, I think they would just stay in the form they were last living in.

Now there, I think it would vary depending on how slowly they died...and how. The heart can keep beating even after the brain goes dead...at least for a little while. If a Werewolf was mortally injured and/or mutilated (beyond the ability to recover) and died slowly, I think the body would have time to revert to whatever its "default"/fall back state is.

Also...if a limb was crushed and dying, or only partially disabled (severed nerve, etc) but still attached to the body, I think it may begin to revert, even if the rest of the body does not, while the mangled limb slowly goes completely dead. That would be really creepy.

[RedEye]

What's interesting here is that suddenly everybody is taking the Werewolf-as-Biological-Phenomenon track.
If, as many have theorized, being a Werewolf is Magickal in nature, as in a Blessing, a Curse, or an Ordeal; then the effects would be the reverse of what we've been talking about: Once dead, the Were' and any parts disassociated from him/her would revert to Human as the Spell was cancelled by the death of the targeted person.
Interesting story line: Pillar of the Community dies. He has been at the heart of the town, is considered a nearly good man, is respected and emulated by everybody...then, when he dies, he turns back into the Wolf he originally was...

[Aki]

What's interesting here is that suddenly everybody is taking the Werewolf-as-Biological-Phenomenon track.
If, as many have theorized, being a Werewolf is Magickal in nature, as in a Blessing, a Curse, or an Ordeal; then the effects would be the reverse of what we've been talking about: Once dead, the Were' and any parts disassociated from him/her would revert to Human as the Spell was cancelled by the death of the targeted person.
Interesting story line: Pillar of the Community dies. He has been at the heart of the town, is considered a nearly good man, is respected and emulated by everybody...then, when he dies, he turns back into the Wolf he originally was...

Biology is a lot easier to work with than magic. There's facts rather than "Oh yeah, this is magic it does what it wants!"

[Vuldari]

I made a comment about the variance when magic is involved in my first response...but really, it could be whatever the heck you want if it's magic.

...depending on what kind of magic caused the person to become a werewolf to begin with, a severed limb could just melt, or evaporate...or dissolve into a glowing black ooze that flies back to the body and reforms into a fully functional limb again...or burst into flames...or just stay as is, or revert to some "Default" form...

It depends...it always depends...


But my overall opinion is:

If Biological...most likely would stay as it was when it was severed.

If Magical...most likely would revert to 'un enchanted' original state.

[RedEye]

I think Vuldari has the thing right. He has applied Occam's razor and, yes;
Biology would remain as-is, while Magickal transformations would revert as the source of energy (Life) was lost and the form reverted to its base form.
As for the "Pool-of-Jello" metamorphic Werewolves, I suspect that the deleted limb or part would turn back into Jello, as the mental Format command was lost. Yuck.

[Fang]

But, let us assume for a moment that the transformation required some subconcious controll, and once that controll is lost than the body part would revert, A sort of defence mechanism to help keep werewolves secret, no werewolf corpse, no proof of werewolves in existance

[Aki]

But, let us assume for a moment that the transformation required some subconcious controll, and once that controll is lost than the body part would revert, A sort of defence mechanism to help keep werewolves secret, no werewolf corpse, no proof of werewolves in existance

Not neccesarily.

Fun fact: Muscles 'freeze' went burnt.

So you could still end up with a werewolf corpse if your werewolf got fried. Even if control was lost, the muscles (and everthying else for that matter) would be too toasted to respond.

[Silver]

I've read the opinions on this thread, and there's something that needs to be remembered. It was decided a while back that the transformation was not magic, but a virus that mutated the DNA. So magic doesn't enter into the equasion here.

It seems that if you take the magic out, the majority of the opinion is that a severed limb would remain as it was before it was severed.

So, do I have it right? if a piece of the WW body (transformed) is removed, it will most probably stay as is. If it is partially removed, it might try to change back, slowing down as the body died.

That sound correct?

[RedEye]

Yep. Everything has an energy price. No Pay, no happen. Part pay, part happen.

That raises the question: would you recognize it as a Werewolf "part", once separated from the Werewolf? I wonder...

[Set]

There's only one way I can see a non-magical werewolf hand changing back to human after it's been cut off, and that's if it eats away at its own flesh, leaving it shriveled and deformed looking.

[Fenrir]

There's only one way I can see a non-magical werewolf hand changing back to human after it's been cut off, and that's if it eats away at its own flesh, leaving it shriveled and deformed looking.

Ya, I'd have to say I agree with Set, There is no way, besides mystical reasons, that a werewolf hand can change back when it has been cut off from a source, however, if it is caused by a virus, the virus's first instinct is preservation so, theoretically, the viruses in the hand would eat away it either completely eating it (but this would take a while maybe a day- a week) or eating the werewolf characteristics.