Partial Transformations

[JoshuaMadoc]

Looks cool if you ask me. *shrug*

I don't see why one can't put dedication into training the body so that one can shift the bodyparts.

Unless, of course, you end up like Serph (above) -- going berserk from "solar noise".

[Vuldari]

Technically, it is possible, with enough training and focused determination, to take control of almost any function within ones body, including stopping, starting, or controlling the rythem of ones own HEART.

...thing is...do YOU know anyone who can do that? No? Neither do I. That's because it is so unbelievably difficult that no normal human being (outside of monks who do nothing but meditate for 3 decades learning that kind of focus and control, or people born with mutations in their nervous system) would ever be expected to be able to learn how to do it.

It seems to me that such a feat as shifting individual body parts would be as impossible as learning to only move individual muscles in your body, while keeping all others that normally move in synchrony with it perfectly still. ...it is technically possible...but unbelievably unlikely that you would ever encounter a person with the discipline to accomplish such a difficult, and ultimately POINTLESS feat. If only one in a billion people have that much discipline, and only one in a trillion are werewolves, the chances of both of those people being the same person are astronomical.

...it's just silly.

But like Rhuen and I were saying...if you are talking about crazy battle universe settings, like in a comic book or anime (like the Anime-esque image you provided as an example) then it is EXPECTED for everyone to have superhuman abilities. Having a werewolf only transform their left arm from the elbow down into a 100% Gestalt form Paw with 4-inch claws to intimidate someone in the pages of a COMIC BOOK is Awesome...but try that same thing in something that is trying to take itself a little more seriously and the only reaction you will get is, "WTF?!".


I think that is really my biggest frustration here. Nothing inspires me more than seeing things from my imagination interpreted in ways that almost feel like they could be real. It sort of makes fantasy and reality feel a little bit closer together.

A Werewolf in and of itself is difficult enough as it is to try to make feel believable without adding all of these extra, frivolous special abilities along with the seemingly impossible feat of transformation itself. ...what's next...the ability to talk to wolves...even though they don't even actually communicate that way with each other?...or maybe they have so much control over their bodies that they can just stand in front of the mirror and change the length of their hair, or shift individual teeth in their mouth that are not quite straight, or just retract all of their extra facial hair in human form instead of shaving...

Where does it end? Where do you draw the line?


I draw the line at being able to induce the transformation at will, and resist it temporarily. That in and of itself I think would take superhuman willpower. Anything beyond that is just outrageous. IMHO as always...

[JoshuaMadoc]

Where does it end? Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line as far as i please, just as i like to dream as i please. Some scientists do it, so why can't i?

Please, don't collide your line with mine.

[Rhuen]

Where does it end? Where do you draw the line?

I draw the line as far as i please, just as i like to dream as i please. Some scientists do it, so why can't i?

Please, don't collide your line with mine.

I think he means where do you draw the line in a live action movie setting.

[Rhuen]

Anime/Manga is Anime/Manga, and ComicBooks/Action-Movies are ComicBooks/Action-Movies...
They each have their own twisted, imaginative versions of pseudo-reality to suit the whims and over-the-top ambitions of their creators.

...in those settings, sure...why not? In those settings, just about Anything goes. ...but then, in those settings EVERYTHING is bigger, badder and capable of seemingly impossible feats...from Elite Super Soldiers, to 6-year old girls with genius 'Prodigy' abilities.

In such settings, it is only natural to push the abilities of a Werewolf beyond normal limits as well, and into the Red Zone in order to maintain their "extraordinary" status.

...but taken out of that setting, many of those abilities become pretty silly and inappropriate, IMHO.

My point exactly.
The level of transformation should depend on the reality.
How fierce do you think a wolfman would be in a world where the average person can easily lift a 70 pound vase, or survive massive explosions that send them twenty feet in the air and heroes shoot fire balls and do impossible magic.
Which is why in Shadow Skill we got a werewolf that could send out wolf headed tenticles.

In American horror settings we wouldn't even think to call these werewolves. Then again we have begun to accept the impossible powers Anime writers have given vampires and incorporated that into our own.

Which is a funny story, we invent the classical vampire (well brits did but who cares) America improved the classical vampire to higher powers, and in Japan they give Classical vampires magic and greater shape shifting powers. Some of which has been incorporated in movies like Van Helsing (Dracula's vamp look was clearly taken from Demitri Maximof's full demon vampire form) and the oldest vampire from Under World 2.

Werewolves have felt this a little bit too. The shape of the werewolf and power that they have is now more reminiscent of these anime versions than old horror versions (such as jumping on top of roofs or climbing up walls)

everything influences something else and they come back around and as they all change we take from each other what we like and don't like.

But in all we should try to keep within certain perameters within a genre and medium.

Precisely.

Comic Book and Anime rules and powers are fine, and good fun so long as they stay in Anime and Comics (and crazy, over-the-top Sci-Fi / Fantasy action movies)...

...but if you try to incorporate them into more serious minded Dramas and Horror story settings, (I'm more partial to a good emotional Action-Drama over bloody horror myself), such things just come off as pretty nonsensical and ridiculous.

I am greatly inclined to agree and will state a reverse version of the wolfman in anime example.

If in an anime or fantasy sci-fi setting you had a mere wolfman, the drama of his sad story and power would come off as comical as the cat-girl sends him flying with a kick or the sorcerer blows him to bits with a fireball.

The reverse if we were to have a serious horror drama where someone is dealing with being cursed by lycanthropy and they meet some werewolf leader and he has three heads and wolf headed tenticles and floats in the air during his fully transformed state automatically the movie goes from horror/drama to sci-fi fantasy action. Just by being there some variations alter the audiences mindset..this is the psychology of entertainment (a very real thing taught to those who make movies, comicbooks, and videogames)

[Vuldari]

I guess the overall point All of Us are trying to make is...when deciding on the range of ability and strengths that the werewolves poses in whatever story you are creating...make sure you are clear on what genre and setting you are creating it for.

Know what works for the kind of story you are telling and what doesn't. Mixing it up, even unintentionally, can ruin the overall atmosphere and mood of your story and how the audience views the characters and your otherwise cool, exiting, funny and/or deep and emotional story will just look dumb and confusing.

Cross-Genre themes are tricky to pull off...just be sure you know what you are doing if you choose to attempt it.


...if you want to give your werewolves unusual or amusing special abilities, be sure that those kinds of things are appropriate within the rest of the world you created, (or choose) for it to exist in. If it was you intention all along for it to be used in amusing ways, and for the characters and story to never really take themselves too seriously, (like alot of Anime, Manga, and other Cartoons and Comics), then WereWolves walking around looking like cat-girls, with only their ears and tail shifted ...or whatever it is you are suggesting they would possibly use such an ability to do... could be a good fit, and would be ENTIRELY 'appropriate'.


All I know is...when I see an artist or author obliviously trying to present something silly as if they honestly think it is something to be taken seriously, they just end up looking a little naive and stupid... and I just don't want to see any of my friends embarrassing themselves unnecessarily.

As long as you KNOW that you are being silly about it, (when you are), and it is clear you are being playful or outrageous about it on-purpose, it's Cool. Have fun with it!


[ Edit: Off the current conversation, but still on topic, What WOULD a Werewolf use the ability to shift individual body parts to DO anyway?

...I mean...what benefit would it provide that would make the effort of learning THAT much focus and control worth the trouble? ]

[Kelpten]

I prefer it that way because that is what I identify the Lycanthropic condition as. I think that would be absolutely Terrifying. I think it would make life for a werewolf a chaotic, dangerous nightmare...I think it would make Lycanthropy a 'CURSE'...which is always what it has been to me. That is what Separates a "Werewolf" from some other kind of shapeshifter which can take the form of a Wolf. A Werewolf is something that is scary to BE...not just to be around.

Thanks for explaining yourself so well Vuldari. I didn't realize that you distinguished between werewolves and other shapeshifters that take wolf form. It doesn't really matter to me what you'd call them, but I can see why you wouldn't want to clump the two together in the same group.

I suppose that a werewolf would devote that much time to it just for the sake of having a greater control over his body (why else do the monks do it? (if there is another reason, insert it into my argument)). Also, if it didn't take too much effort, a tail and ears, not to mention the sweat glands in between the toes, would allow for better communication expressing some concepts that may be difficult with words without having to revert to a complete shift.

But overall, I have to agree with you that the partial transformations don't belong in a horror/drama. (works great in manga though! Read Crecent Moon!)

[JoshuaMadoc]

I think he means where do you draw the line in a live action movie setting.

Same thing -- as far as i please. Just do it right, and i might be interested. That's all i ask for.

But i put more faith in an animated film. Yay for being weaboo.

[Rhuen]

I guess the overall point All of Us are trying to make is...when deciding on the range of ability and strengths that the werewolves poses in whatever story you are creating...make sure you are clear on what genre and setting you are creating it for.

Know what works for the kind of story you are telling and what doesn't. Mixing it up, even unintentionally, can ruin the overall atmosphere and mood of your story and how the audience views the characters and your otherwise cool, exiting, funny and/or deep and emotional story will just look dumb and confusing.

Cross-Genre themes are tricky to pull off...just be sure you know what you are doing if you choose to attempt it.


...if you want to give your werewolves unusual or amusing special abilities, be sure that those kinds of things are appropriate within the rest of the world you created, (or choose) for it to exist in. If it was you intention all along for it to be used in amusing ways, and for the characters and story to never really take themselves too seriously, (like alot of Anime, Manga, and other Cartoons and Comics), then WereWolves walking around looking like cat-girls, with only their ears and tail shifted ...or whatever it is you are suggesting they would possibly use such an ability to do... could be a good fit, and would be ENTIRELY 'appropriate'.


All I know is...when I see an artist or author obliviously trying to present something silly as if they honestly think it is something to be taken seriously, they just end up looking a little naive and stupid... and I just don't want to see any of my friends embarrassing themselves unnecessarily.

As long as you KNOW that you are being silly about it, (when you are), and it is clear you are being playful or outrageous about it on-purpose, it's Cool. Have fun with it!


[ Edit: Off the current conversation, but still on topic, What WOULD a Werewolf use the ability to shift individual body parts to DO anyway?

...I mean...what benefit would it provide that would make the effort of learning THAT much focus and control worth the trouble? ]

The benefit (and a way to add pointed ears and a tail or just eyes and not be too anime-ish) would be to increase muscle mass and strength with only a few outward effects like ears, teeth, and/or eyes and still have enough strength to do something super-human (but not as great as fully transformed) with out needing to fully transform. Basically like cheating in football, or taking down someone trying to mug you, ect...situation where you might want the extra boost but not want to be fully revealed.

Only changing the claws too could be useful during these types of situations like where the person is being attacked by a gang but the area is too public that if you fully transformed someone would see you (or having to get home naked because you just shredded all your cloths so either naked or full beast either would be a problem going from that point to your original destination.

[Silver]

I think it's time something was said on this string. Since we are talking about a theroy/idea/concept, EVERYBODY'S opinions are valuable.

No one is an authority or expert on Werewolves here. We've got many experts on legends, stories, research, concepts, logic and anthologies. Many folks, myself included, have spent a lot of time on the Werewolf genre. I, like a lot of people here, have spent that time. And done some actual compelations of the things written on this site. But I don't consider that to mean I can be more right or wrong than anyone else.

Because all of it is opinions, or stories or legends. No one is more right than anyone else. Unless you can produce a Werewolf and prove it, you don't know more than anyone else on the creature. My guess is that if they are real, and they want to be known, they are perfectly able to do it. THEN they can present the facts. However, since they haven't, I don't think anyone here can claim that they are more right than anyone else.

No one is wrong, silly, or too anything. They just disagree. And anyone's opinion here is JUST AS RIGHT as anyone else's.


Please, please feel free to give your views on anything on this string, or any other. But please give others the same respect for their opinions that you would expect for your own.

[JoshuaMadoc]

I'm trying hard not to say "this/that irks me".

[RedEye]

I've looked at the entries, and-y'know-it seems that nobody has really decided on what a "Partial Transformation" really is.
Is it like the Makeup test, where we see a slight modification of the body?
Is it like a panic shift, where just enough of the Wolf comes through to get the heck outta there?
Is it changing some part of your body to full Wolf/Gestalt?
Is it something else?
Before we start throwing concrete duckies, let's decide what a partial transformation consists of...
Now, it just confuses me (not all that hard to do, really...)

[Vuldari]

... Also, if it didn't take too much effort, a tail and ears, not to mention the sweat glands in between the toes, would allow for better communication expressing some concepts that may be difficult with words without having to revert to a complete shift.

Alright...see...now please stop and think about what you are saying.

..."sweat glands"?!...

I know you are just trying to be enthusiastic and 'authentic' about representing the Wolfiness of a Werewolf, but this "Communication" talk really needs a reality check.

The Ears and Tail of a Wolf are used to express a select few SIMPLE concepts and signals between wolves, as their only method of doing so, due to their lack of a true Language.

"Dominant", "Submissive", "Happy", "Unhappy"...and subtle variances for more specific emotions such as Fear and Anger, etc.

...that's it.

The suggestion that a werewolf would not be able to properly convey these things to each other without ears, a tail and special glads is nonsense. In case you have forgotten, Human beings have come up with countless OTHER ways to convey these same concepts to each other, not only in more than a hundred different spoken languages, but with many different forms of nonverbal signals...no tail or ears reqired...such as a friendly wave, a scowl, a pout, or showing someone your extended middle finger. ...etc...

There are absolutely NO nonverbal signals that Wolves use that do not have a dozen or more equivalent human gestures that convey the same thing...in multiple languages even. (such as the Japanese insult of pulling down your lower eyelid with your finger.)

As for the use of Glands... Wolves and other animals use that for one purpose only. ...to identify 'possession'. "MY territory...", "MY mate...". [Edit: ...oh, and to attract mates and deter potential intruders I suppose...and then there are creatures like SKUNKS...but that is getting off topic.]

Humans, and anything with the intelligence of a Human, have less smelly ways of identifying their possessions and property...like tags, or just saying, "this is mine".



[Edit:]This reminds me of a story arc from the Web-Comic Kevin and Kell where one of the characters lost his tail, and until he had it repaired, they constantly joked about how no one could understand him, and how his 'accent' was really thick without his tail. That was really cute, funny and cleaver. But when you apply a little logic to the situation, and apply the same communication concepts to a more realistic interpretation, it really doesn't make sense.


This all leads back to the elements being "Appropriate" to the story being told. For a light hearted, fun and entertaining story, using wolven communication signals as a preferential form of non-verbal communication, (even in human form), and scent markers could be really funny, and would open up a whole range of creative and fun situations. If someone made a comedy saturated Werewolf Story or Series that involved such behavior, I would look at it and call it "Brilliant", as the idea is undeniably entertaining.

Please...no one misunderstand me. I am not, nor have I ever been trying to claim that ALL werewolves and Werewolf stories, or even stories that just involve a Werewolf character need to conform to a certain set of rules and guidelines, or that all Werewolves need to be a certain way. I LOVE Variety.

...but some of the most amusing, entertaining, and even POPULAR concepts from one genre just don't work in another. Now...if the wolven part of a Werewolves brain started to influence their behavior in human form, leading them to start using mimicry of wolven signals to emphasize their points in human form, possibly without them even realizing it, THAT I would find believable...(Like snarling and baring teeth while angry, lowering the head when subdued, holding the knees together as if pinching an inviable tail between the legs...wait...actually, people already do that. Heh...).

If one is trying to convey a serious mood, and is portraying a scene where two Werewolves are having a stare-down, it would REALLY kill the moment if they both suddenly grew out their tails and ears just to swivel them forward and hold it up in dominant, aggressive position to emphasize their aggressive dispositions towards each other. Gnashing teeth, dirty looks, and more traditional aggressive posture would serve the purpose much more effectively.

...and I don't even want to TOUCH the subject of 'Scent Marking'...

Please...if you are trying to be Serious...be serious.

But if you are being silly, say, "...wouldn't it be really funny if...", and then I'll probably say, "*LOL*...that's hilarious...someone should totally write a story about that...".

I LOVE a healthy dose of absurdity and awkward humor in the morning. Two of my favorite cartoons are "Family Guy", and "Fosters"...and neither of those shows even try to be realistic.

[Kelpten]

Hmmm, good point. I'm pretty much already converted, but I felt that I should hold up my argument for the sake of debate.

But reality, logic, realism, sense, and consequences aside...
You have to admit that it would be fun to have a tail now and then!

[Vuldari]

Hmmm, good point. I'm pretty much already converted, but I felt that I should hold up my argument for the sake of debate.

But reality, logic, realism, sense, and consequences aside...
You have to admit that it would be fun to have a tail now and then!

Sorry...

I'm not trying to "CONVERT" anyone to my way of thinking. (At least...that was not my intention) I was just trying to make a point...a very Blunt point.

But there are two sides to every coin. While I DO tend to get a little 'uppity' when the essence of one of my favorite mythological creatures is being Messed With...

...at the same time, I totally admit that if I personally had the ability to grow a Tail, I would...and I would walk around with it as often as I could get away with it.

...and if I could sprout a long sharp claw from my hand whenever I am having trouble opening a container or package...I totally would.


It's just that... Serious Werewolves are SCARY creatures...and Scary creatures don't do stuff like that...unless it is your intention to shatter that image and laugh at it instead...in which case it's very very Funny. I just can't see a more traditional, BASE/Canon Werewolf being able to do that. It's just not...Werewolfy...or something...

Does anyone get what I am saying?

[Vuldari]

I've looked at the entries, and-y'know-it seems that nobody has really decided on what a "Partial Transformation" really is.
Is it like the Makeup test, where we see a slight modification of the body?
Is it like a panic shift, where just enough of the Wolf comes through to get the heck outta there?
Is it changing some part of your body to full Wolf/Gestalt?
Is it something else?
Before we start throwing concrete duckies, let's decide what a partial transformation consists of...
Now, it just confuses me (not all that hard to do, really...)

All of the above, plus shifting individual body parts, while the rest of the body does not change at all...like having a Gestalt Wolf Paw on the Left hand, up to the middle of the forearm, but not shifted anywhere else...or Changing the Ears to be half-way to Wolf, to increase your hearing ability, but ONLY the ears.

...or stopping at only a fraction of a full transformation over the whole body and not going any further, like you said. ..."Just enough" so you can see it poking through, so to speak.

Either/Or.

[Kelpten]

It's just that... Serious Werewolves are SCARY creatures...and Scary creatures don't do stuff like that...unless it is your intention to shatter that image and laugh at it instead...in which case it's very very Funny. I just can't see a more traditional, BASE/Canon Werewolf being able to do that. It's just not...Werewolfy...or something...

Does anyone get what I am saying?

I think I understand. You have an image of the cursed werewolf, the monster that's haunted our imaginations since the first wolves met the first of our ancestors, and anything that substracts from that total image of fright should be left out or classified as something else.

My own views of the werewolf lean more to the therian side, I suppose. It's not just for the added strength or senses (though those are cool) but for the ability to perceive the world in more levels then we can with our current senses. Can you imagine not just visiting nature and saying "that's pretty" but being a part of it as well? How wonderful would it be to view a whole new world through our noses insead of our eyes, or to change the noises of the night into a sort of cacaphonous serenade? To live each day so close to such a primal state, but then be able to return to the human world as well and obtain all the benifits there? Both have so much to offer.

In the same way that you dislike to see something that should be terrifying made light, I have to admit that I dislike something that should be beautiful made horrific.

(I am well aware that my views are over romantisized and that nature, or the human world for that matter, is no where near as harmonious as I described. This is shooting more for the ideal, not the reality)

[RedEye]

A Werewolf is going to be frightening to most people simply because of:
1> The Movies; and 2> People are as a rule, afraid of Wolves.

Imagine: someone you know has let you in on things, and does a shift in front of you. You SEE: your friend changing into a big Wolf, who is talking to you and being the same person he/she always was-only now they have two inch long canine teeth.
You FEEL: Omygoditsgonnaeatme! You DO: need to change your shorts.
It's something we can't help...even if they were to "come out" there would be fear based on millenia of conditioning. It could be unlearned, but it would take time.
Plus, like the Spanish Inquisition; nobody "expects" a Werewolf.
They could be the combination of the most noble of Human and Wolf societies; and people would still be scared.
I'm hoping Freeborn will move in that direction: Werewolves that aren't stereotypes. Werewolves that save the lost kid...then slip back into the underbrush. Werewolves that get seriously turned on by Baseball...and throw duckies.
It's a good idea; but it's 'way, way different.

[Rhuen]

Its all in the name.

Do we call them werewolves.
Lupine Changlings.

I feel even in a more serious situation that variants on the theme are possible but we have to understand the psychological attachment to the name. and expectations of the general populace.

like a scene where someone calles them a werewolf but they say, "I am not a werewolf, we are not werewolves. A werewolf is a human cursed to become a mindless beast"
-shifts ears, tail, some sharper teeth and eyes
"we are Lykanions not werewolves"
(understanding that the average person seeing them wouldn't know the difference yet they have distinct qualities that differentiate them from the norm of the werewolf genre).

Or something to this effect if your character is intended to not be a cursed human monster but something else interily different.
Which I suppose goes with the question as to what they intend to call the "werewolves" of this movie.

[RedEye]

Now, this is admittedly off track; since the thread is "Partial Shifts"...
but there might be a way for them to be accepted: Go find some old deserted ruin in the back of beyond, and play the "What Werewolves? we've always been like this" as they shift between Smooth and Wolf...
People can accept a Werewolf (even the name) is it's divorced from the movie and legend stuff ("Really, we aren't like that...probably those crazy explorers back in 18-something or other...)
In short, play "We aren't the people you are talking about, we just look the same and have the same name, that's all. Have a carrot?"
That, or a phony-but-believable spaceship. "We aren't Werewolves, we're Werr-Wulafs from Procyon. Take us to your leader, and could we stop at a McDonalds on the way?"
Silly, but people could accept that; as opposed to the idea that they've been wrong all these years...

[Paine]

your right about the magical shapeshifters. its fine if you dont beleive me but i am a witch/shapeshifter/werewolf. but im not able to complete my shifts. the most i've gotten is the senses, instinct, and im able to shift my eyes and teeth but thats all. and having control over when it happens impossible! i know others like me exist because i am drawn to them and i am only sexually attracted to my own kind. im a little embarrassed but its for everyones info on werewolves, the wolf usually takes over durring sex.

Depending on the story, and the werewolf, I can see how this could be used in ways that make some amount of sense, but overall, I just don't like it.


I'm not fond of werewolves that have too much control over when they change (or don't change), and to me, being able to not only change anytime, anywhere At Will but also be able to change individual body parts, or stop the change at any mid-stage they desire is just going TOO FAR.


Magical Shapeshifters can do that...if you are a Wizard, or a mystical Kitsune, or maybe the demigod, half-breed child of an Animal Totem spirit, then you would have that kind of control.


To me, part of being a Werewolf is LOOSING control. Even if they are not evil, and not bloodthirsty, I still feel that it is an essential part of being a Werewolf is some amount of loosing control of yourself. ...the animal within having a mind of its own, and taking you along for the ride when you least expect it. ...and not just in the beginning, but always. (...no matter How Much you practice...)


'Taming' the Lycanthropy to such a precise and refined degree is almost like lycanthropic "Blasphemy"...at least in my own eyes.


Again...in some instances (mostly in settings that take the subject a little less seriously, like cartoons or comics), I can see it, but it just doesn't feel right in most other cases to me.

Inconvenient, yes...but that's kind of the point...

[Berserker]

your right about the magical shapeshifters. its fine if you dont beleive me but i am a witch/shapeshifter/werewolf. but im not able to complete my shifts. the most i've gotten is the senses, instinct, and im able to shift my eyes and teeth but thats all. and having control over when it happens impossible! i know others like me exist because i am drawn to them and i am only sexually attracted to my own kind. im a little embarrassed but its for everyones info on werewolves, the wolf usually takes over durring sex.

Out of curiosity, why respond to a 12-month-old thread as your first post here?

Welcome to the pack, but be forewarned: pretending to be a real werewolf/shapeshifter on a non-roleplaying forum is very annoying to many of us. Enjoy posting here and reading what others have written, but please, do so appropriately. We have roleplaying forums for just such a thing.

[Celestialwolf]

I know this is a little old now, but here's my take on the matter:

Those with a lot of skill and experience can even shift specific body parts or pause mid-shift if, for example, they want to walk around in human form with a big, furry wolf tail for Halloween or use their claws to slit the plastic on those annoying, hard to open CD cases!
-My Werewolf Website

I also like the idea of using ears and a tail for communication every so often.

[Fyriewolf]

are lycanthropes supppose to use their ears and tails for comunnications or at least for anyt sight or sign s of danger?

[RedEye]

Yes. Wolves do it; and it beats trying charades if there's somebody watching you...