Manmde Lycanthropy:Would it be possible?

[Dreamer]

Well, because of the the advances in genetic therapy, would Lycanthropy be possible to engineer in humans (And I mean already born humans, not in vitro)? Or would the shape shifting be too complex to genetically engineer? And what about the increase in mass that is used so commonly in fiction? Would it be possible to stuore the excess mass somewhere else, or would that be impossible too? And Most imprtantly, if this is all possible, do you think it will happen within my lifetime (I'm 14, take that as you will).

[PariahPoet]

Wait, wait- a 14 year old capable of creating a coherent and intelligent post? So it IS indeed possible!? That gives me hope for humanity. ^^

As for your query- I believe that someday it will be possible, but I highly doubt any of us will see it. I would think it's going to be at least 500 years before the science makes it possible, and people will make it legal. The latter will probably be the primary time-consuming factor. Humans still can't let natural wolves live peacefully, there is no way they will permit the existence of werewolves for quite some time.

[Spongy]

I agree with Pariah. It's going to take a loooong time. And it wont be legal for an ever longer time.

(On another note: I never even suspected you were fourteen. I had an image of some dude in his 20s.)

[Dreamer]

You really thought I was in my twenties SpongyPAnts? Now whatever gave you that idea?

ANyway, hopefully I live long enough to see humanity attain mortality, or at least keepign the brain alive after the body dies, so that i can live until that era. The reason is because, I don't beleive in an afterlife (Think it's completely implausible, I'm a very rational person who refuses to delude himself with false hope), and the prospect of nonexistence scares me.

Scott Gardner, what do you have to say on this, seeing as genetic technology is mentioned as happening in the near future in your book (I haven't read your sequel yet)

[Spongy]

I thought you were in your twenties because of they quality of your posts. Much more in depth than I expect from a 14 year old.

[Dreamer]

Actually, I meant to say that I was fifteen (Yes I know I can be incredibly absent midned sometimes) seeign as I was born in 1992, but your point still stands

[*nagowteena*]

I thought you were in your twenties because of they quality of your posts. Much more in depth than I expect from a 14 year old.

yeah I thought he was a lot older in the past.

untill he told me he's 15.

[Scott Gardener]

There's a lot of hurtles to overcome. Aside from the technical, there's the social issues. Transhumanism and morphological freedom are fringe concepts right now. Humanity is going to have to grow up fast to be more open to such ideas within the next 70 years or so. But, if humanity doesn't grow up soon, it might be a moot point, anyway. The good news is that humanity doesn't have to get us all the way there by 2077; as long as it gets us past the part about dying of old age, we can put off the rest for a little while. And, while making werewolves might be seen right now as a low priority among my medical colleagues, ("Mad, you say? I shall have my revenge upon you all! Ah hah ha!" lightning flash.) curing disease and prolonging both life expectancy and quality of life are fairly important topics to a lot of people. Just make sure you're rich, just to be safe, since access to decent medicine is likely to remain unfair and lopsided for awhile.

The main technical hurtles to overcome (to continue using the hurtle metaphor) would be in my mind the reshaping of bones, the resizing of brain, and the designing of a virus-like agent that can infiltrate the body quickly and completely without significantly risking killing the host. If you can figure these three problems out, then a lot of the other problems will be solvable as well. Bone might not be as bad as it sounds; I happen to know that bones have at least a little fluidity about them already--about a millimeter or two of bend, maybe. That's not enough to get much of a muzzle, however, and it certainly can't accomodate ten extra teeth, so a means of breaking down and rebuilding bones in a span of less than a minute would involve pretty much inventing a new physiology. Given that we're still figuring out the ins and outs of the physiology we already have, that could be awhile. Compressing the brain would also involve a lot of reinvention, but again it's theoretically possible, since a lot of who we are and what we know is contained on the outer surface, with a large amount of volume consisting of fibrous tracts--"wires" instead of "processors" and "RAM." The trick is how to do a lossless compression--and I don't mean that in the computer sense of the words. That would require a lot of neurological micro-engineering that's way beyond where we are today. But, I genuinely believe it's doable.

There's hope. Even if making werewolves isn't society's top nanomolecular engineering project today, a lot of other technologies needed to get us there are. Again, the first order of business is living long enough to see it. This has some other benefits as well, like getting to see whether or not they'll ever get around to flying cars or video phones. I could argue that inventing werewolves will itself along the way cure all kinds of diseases, solve a lot of chronic pain and orthopedic disability problems, offer new treatments for cancer, and get more people to quit smoking. But, making werewolves without first discovering a substantial amount of neuroscience or inventing a lot of nanomolecular genetic engineering technologies is a lot like going back to 1766 and trying to develop an open source alternative to Windows Mobile 5. Someone first has to invent the phone, and then someone else has to invent one with a screen and a microchip.

Thankfully, before you get too depressed and mope about how slow and tedious humanity is being about the issue, consider that computer technology is more or less staying true to Moore's Law--an observation made a few decades back that computer processing capability seemed to double about every eighteen months. If that trend continues, a desktop computer (or whatever form factor replaces one by then) will have the same order of complexity as the human brain around 2030. By 2040, it'll be about a hundred times as complex. That's your own personal computer. And, it'll be networked, likely by a broadband standard that will blow away cable, DSL, or whatever the [squeeky] they use over in South Korea. Long before then I can extrapolate that an artificial intelligence will be possible, one that might be willing to help us out in our engineering efforts. Solving medical problems will be one of the first things we'll ask it to do. And, if it doesn't decide to exterminate us, those of us who live to see 2040 or so might just get to live long enough to worry about whether or not the Sun is going to engulf the Earth five billion years from now. Along the way, becoming werewolves might be a fairly easy party trick, done for nostalgia's sake.

[PariahPoet]

My guess was about 18. But still good to see a young'un among us who is well-spoken.
Though in your last post, I believe you meant immortality.

Personally I rather hope that we don't find a way to extend life past 100 or so. Without death, life is meaningless. The world is overpopulated by humans anyway without death, there would not be room for new generations. Don't get me wrong- I don't look forward to my own death anymore than the next person(at least not now that I have something to live for), but I also realize that however unpleasant it is for me, it is necessary.

[*nagowteena*]

My guess was about 18. But still good to see a young'un among us who is well-spoken.
Though in your last post, I believe you meant immortality.

Personally I rather hope that we don't find a way to extend life past 100 or so. Without death, life is meaningless. The world is overpopulated by humans anyway without death, there would not be room for new generations. Don't get me wrong- I don't look forward to my own death anymore than the next person(at least not now that I have something to live for), but I also realize that however unpleasant it is for me, it is necessary.

I must agree.

[RedEye]

While we do have genetic therapies, they're very simple and very risky; as in last-chance-treatments.

I disagree on the time involved, though. If it became a "hot" item, perhaps only two hundred years would be needed-remember, we went from never-off-Earth to landing on the Moon in less than a decade.

I suspect that the modifications would be more heat related, is the planet keeps heating up...say more heat tolerance and less water need, as well as the ability to eat things we can't now.
Human Camels. Were-Camel, anyone?

However, once that was done-and was semi-safe and reliable; I suppose that Humans could be Lupan-ized. Once a process is made, there could be any number of variations on the theme. It's the basic development that is the difficult part. Once the basics are down, the rest just needs money to happen.

What I suspect is going to be the genetic treatment that is earliest in development will be the Anti-Geria genetic treatments; living longer and staying younger in appearance seems to be the main direction that things would go. People want that much more than they want to become Wolves.
Trust me in this. I'm an old fart-and I know what I'd invest in.
Still, being a two hundred year old Werewolf wouldn't chafe me any.

You're fifteen. Okay: stay smart and work for what you believe in, and that includes School. You wanna be a Werewolf, start getting trained in Science, then specialize in Genetic Research.
Little hint here: you can get just about anything you want-IF you are willing to pay the price (study, work, effort; rarely money).
If I'm still around; I'll sign up for the trials...

[Midnight]

I think there's a very, very remote possibility that something like this could be possible in your lifetime. What I can see being possible... it wouldn't be the classical man-to-wolf type shapeshifting... it would be more like a surgical procedure; it would be extremely expensive (like any lifestyle type surgery - plastic surgery, etc. would be - and your insurance wouldn't cover it) and there's a good chance it wouldn't be reversible except by undergoing another surgical procedure. You could look like a "Gestalt" for a while, though; it could be a generational fad or something like that. I suspect a lot of the actual techniques will be based on what is already possible today (I don't know much about medicine though - Scott, any comments on what I think?)

But someone could come up with something radical that would kick-start the process along.

As for what is possible in your lifetime... put it in perspective. You're 15 (I'd have pegged you as about 20 - 22, but that's a completely different topic). In 67 years time you'll be 82: perfectly achievable for your generation. In 1902, nobody had ever achieved controlled and sustained heavier-than-air flight. In 1969, only 67 years later, Neil Armstrong walked on the Moon.

[Aki]

My guess was about 18. But still good to see a young'un among us who is well-spoken.
Though in your last post, I believe you meant immortality.

Personally I rather hope that we don't find a way to extend life past 100 or so. Without death, life is meaningless. The world is overpopulated by humans anyway without death, there would not be room for new generations. Don't get me wrong- I don't look forward to my own death anymore than the next person(at least not now that I have something to live for), but I also realize that however unpleasant it is for me, it is necessary.

I don't think so. No matter how long you could extend it (and there would be a limit. I highly doubt we could ever make it so our bodies were capable of maintaining themselves infinitely) there would always, always be death. Even if you're able to live to 10000, you might end up getting stuck by lightning and dying when you're 150 or something. Long or infinite lifespans would not eliminate death by the other means.

Population could be regulated with laws about how many children one could have. I mean, even WITH natural lifespans and people dying from natural disasters, China STILL has to have it's one child law. Natural or extended lifespans, it's likely that this will have to become more widespread before long. And, eventually, we could probably colonize Mars by the time this would start being a problem. A big empty planet like that's gotta have a lot of room to plop down some colonies and move some humans off Earth. That'll make things easier.

Though, given our natures, population control likely won't be a problem. We like killing each other far too much for our population to rise exponentially.

[RedEye]

Question: what does this have to do with Man-made lycanthropy?

There might actually be modifications like this, simply to ease the strain on Civilization for supplies and food. If you wear your Fur all the time, you don't need clothing. If you form up into hunting packs, as Wolves do; there is your food supply taken care of.

Of course, living wild is rather less than idyllic, unless you live in Tahiti or the like; and even then, there are problems. You hunger a lot, your reproductive activities are tightly controlled, you have little or no access to medical assistance...

In short, you're not having fun.

[MoonKit]

You really thought I was in my twenties SpongyPAnts? Now whatever gave you that idea?

I blame the avatar with glasses.

[Dreamer]

You really thought I was in my twenties SpongyPAnts? Now whatever gave you that idea?

I blame the avatar with glasses.

Well, the cahracter in there isn't based on me. Just myt own personal power-fantasy

[Kzinistzerg]

My guess was about 18. *snip*

I don't think so. No matter how long you could extend it (and there would be a limit. I highly doubt we could ever make it so our bodies were capable of maintaining themselves infinitely) there would always, always be death. *snip*

One word for this: CANCER. The scourge of old age. You wont escape it, and the older you get the higher your chances of getting it. Cancer is not something we can cure short of complete mental transference to silicon bodies.

If you want immortality, you cannot keep your body.

You can't even keep it past 100 most of the time. Cancer is very, very nasty, and THAT is the only hurdle for old-age treatment.

On the subject of werewolves for real: Not for a helluva LONG time. The medical expertise and energy required is prohibitively expensive- in short, the only shift we'll get will be one-way at most. I can't imagine being able to truly go back and forth without magic-- but you're welcome to prove me wrong!

On the subject of young people: I'm 17, as of last Wednesday; I joined up here a few months after my 14th birthday. My typing has improved somewhat but I think getting ON to this board is a fairly exceptional filter for intelligence and ability to post.

[Spongy]

While we are on the topic of age, I'll just throw out there that I'm 16.

[Avareis]

That cool, Spungi.
I think we've done something like that in the past, where we have engineered hairy things with humans. It didn't turn out very well and I don't think we could use another Rosie O'Donnell or Linsey Lohan, do you?
Besides, I think we've got bigger issued to deal with, like the need for an even longer lasting light bulb.
You're right about cancer, by the way. My gramps had to loose an arm because it kept coming back after 5 years of fighting. No more radiation! You can only have so much. Hey, did you know that they had a treatment for cancer that didn't make you sick? It was excluded as a treatment because the man who came out with it wasn't a doctor. It worked on skin and some other internal cancers including breast cancer! They wanted to buy it so that they could make money, but he believed such knowledge should be free to us. Though they tried to take these actions in buying it, they took action to have it banned and it was.
It didn't cure all cancers though, just as kemo and radiation don't always work. His name was Hoxsey. Look him up.
Edit: Here's a link...
http://www.newstarget.com/019852.html

[Aki]

My guess was about 18. *snip*

I don't think so. No matter how long you could extend it (and there would be a limit. I highly doubt we could ever make it so our bodies were capable of maintaining themselves infinitely) there would always, always be death. *snip*

One word for this: CANCER. The scourge of old age. You wont escape it, and the older you get the higher your chances of getting it. Cancer is not something we can cure short of complete mental transference to silicon bodies.

If you want immortality, you cannot keep your body.

You can't even keep it past 100 most of the time. Cancer is very, very nasty, and THAT is the only hurdle for old-age treatment.

On the subject of werewolves for real: Not for a helluva LONG time. The medical expertise and energy required is prohibitively expensive- in short, the only shift we'll get will be one-way at most. I can't imagine being able to truly go back and forth without magic-- but you're welcome to prove me wrong!

On the subject of young people: I'm 17, as of last Wednesday; I joined up here a few months after my 14th birthday. My typing has improved somewhat but I think getting ON to this board is a fairly exceptional filter for intelligence and ability to post.

And long age + Werewolf = high cancer risk.

Because, y'know, something that changes it's cells around regularly and has high regeneration (and thus lots of cellular mitosis, etc.) is probably liable to pick that up. Or at least when it does pick it up, is likely to have it be growing worse swifter.

Though, interestingly, I read a new article a few days back about how scientists found genes in worms that they can use to double the lifespan of the worm and some other ones that can speed up/slow down the growth of cancers. And susposedly we and worms share similar genes.

So, that might be an alternative to silicon bodies. Especially since those bodies would have their own problems and we'd just be swapping one set of problems for another.

[RedEye]

I'd wonder about that cancer risk thing. Were's are supposed to have enhanced healing abilities and strong anti-infective systems as well. Since most cancers become "not of the body" growths; one suspects that a Were's immune system would keep any potential cancer in check.

Add in that a Werewolf is acclimated to body shifting, and cancer is probably less a risk than one thinks. It is much less a risk than being found out and chased by the peasants all over the place (small fee for participation) or being the recipient of a silver bullet (or decapitating shotgun blast).

Then again, why would a Werewolf live longer than anyone else? There is a strand of DNA that gets shorter every time a cell divides and eventually brings a halt to cellular division (or replacement). So eventually, the Wulf would be unable to shift: stuck in whatever form they were in when the DNA ran out.

If anything, I'd suspect that a Werewolf would live a slightly shorter time than a non-Were would, again because of cellular division. Perhaps there would be a trade off: Shift lots and die young, or hold form and live long. Life is just that sort of thing, as a rule; you get the goodies, but you pay for them-somehow.

[Dreamer]

My guess was about 18. *snip*

I don't think so. No matter how long you could extend it (and there would be a limit. I highly doubt we could ever make it so our bodies were capable of maintaining themselves infinitely) there would always, always be death. *snip*

One word for this: CANCER. The scourge of old age. You wont escape it, and the older you get the higher your chances of getting it. Cancer is not something we can cure short of complete mental transference to silicon bodies.

If you want immortality, you cannot keep your body.

Well, wouldn't that be what cloning new bodies to transplant the brain into would be for.

And also...

It didn't turn out very well and I don't think we could use another Rosie O'Donnell or Linsey Lohan, do you?

You're wrong about the second one. Because Lindsey Lohan is hot.

Also, the reason that I don't beleive in god is because there is no real scxientific evidence to his/her existence (Or historical evidence for the existence of Jesus), the concept of a magical being that lives in the sky and created us all sounds rediculous, I want to beleive in god but it sounds so irrational and the religious high-ups are bigots.

Please prove me wrong. I want so badly to beleive, bt I can't beleive i nsomething that I know is a lie.

[Aki]

I'd wonder about that cancer risk thing. Were's are supposed to have enhanced healing abilities and strong anti-infective systems as well. Since most cancers become "not of the body" growths; one suspects that a Were's immune system would keep any potential cancer in check.

Add in that a Werewolf is acclimated to body shifting, and cancer is probably less a risk than one thinks. It is much less a risk than being found out and chased by the peasants all over the place (small fee for participation) or being the recipient of a silver bullet (or decapitating shotgun blast).

Enhanced healing, yes, but conversely, have cells capable of very rapid division. It'd all be a matter of whether or not the were's immune system would be able to supress it or if it'd be outnumbered.

Then again, why would a Werewolf live longer than anyone else? There is a strand of DNA that gets shorter every time a cell divides and eventually brings a halt to cellular division (or replacement). So eventually, the Wulf would be unable to shift: stuck in whatever form they were in when the DNA ran out.

If anything, I'd suspect that a Werewolf would live a slightly shorter time than a non-Were would, again because of cellular division. Perhaps there would be a trade off: Shift lots and die young, or hold form and live long. Life is just that sort of thing, as a rule; you get the goodies, but you pay for them-somehow.

I was refering to the inclusion of life-lengthing technology with lycanthropy, instead of lycanthropy offering any sort of life-extension.

Though, to argue that point a little, the exercise and health given by the capabilities and tendencies of a werewolf might be enough to counter the effects of aging some.

[Morkulv]

What in the world are you guys talking about? Lycanthropy is a mental-disease wich makes patients delusional and act like beasts, much like rabies. There is nothing more to it. Look it up if you don't believe me, you can even get medication for it.

[Dreamer]

What in the world are you guys talking about? Lycanthropy is a mental-disease wich makes patients delusional and act like beasts, much like rabies. There is nothing more to it. Look it up if you don't believe me, you can even get medication for it.

Well, taht's not what I was referring to. I was referring to actual shapeshifting.