Are we ruining werewolves?

[RedEye]

The "Werewolves" of underworld have no connection with cats of any sort.
My fuzzy feline friends "Shadow" and "Laplander" are quite specific on that matter, and since they can shred my legs if I disagree, I must support them.

Actually, the Werewolves of Underworld bear as much resemblance to Wolves as the Vampires in that movie bear to historic Vampyrs. The Werewolves actully look rather mangy (I had to treat Shadow for ear mange last week: Nasty stuff!)

That's why I'd give the Underworld Werewolves plenty of room: what they have may be catching.

[Fyriewolf]

Yea I have to agree with ya there. My mate had manges on his back and it was hard for him to stop his impulsion of scratching them.

[Fyriewolf]

although vampires do get manges only when having sex.

[WereWolfBoy]

maybe who knows i don't

[Fyriewolf]

don't what get manges. vampires rule

[outwarddoodles]

All I can really say is "Personal Preference."

I LIKE my werewolves to be a certain way. And just because the general consensus used to be something entirely difference, doesn't mean I have to like what they do. There's no RIGHT way to veiw a werewolf.

(Note: And if you're looking for my personal opinion, I love both kinds! I view werewolves being as diverse as humans, with both the benevolent and malicious, intelligent and instinctual, sides to them. Ying and Yang and all-that-stuff, y'know?)

[Wolfzilla]

I've been doing a lot of thinking on the "evil werewolf" situation, and it suddenly occurs to me that being a werewolf must come with a lot of power. And it'd be very tempting to misuse that power. If you could rob, steal, or kill and get away with it.....would you? Transforming into a werewolf is comparable to adopting another persona. Putting on the perfect disguise that goes down to the bone. Someone pisses you off? Well, next full moon they die in a "mysterious animal attack", and no one would even think of looking for a human suspect. It'd be the perfect crime. It'd be very tempting to missuse the power that comes with being a werewolf, and even the best of people mught just..... fall from grace.

[Midnight]

(Note: And if you're looking for my personal opinion, I love both kinds! I view werewolves being as diverse as humans, with both the benevolent and malicious, intelligent and instinctual, sides to them. Ying and Yang and all-that-stuff, y'know?)

Completely agree with that. I like werewolves, not just a small sub-set of the genre. All I ask is that the creators respect them. That's why I like Dog Soldiers. That's why I'm also seriously looking forward to Freeborn, which is going to have a completely different take on the genre.

Wolfzilla - your ideas are also very interesting. If someone took that plot and wrote a serious drama around it, the results could be very good indeed.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Someone pisses you off? Well, next full moon they die in a "mysterious animal attack", and no one would even think of looking for a human suspect. It'd be the perfect crime.

That would depend on how incompetent the forensic investigators are. If you don't know how to elude the best of the best forensic teams, you'd be off to the chophouse for sure.

[Wolfzilla]

Ever seen an angry bear attack someone? A werewolf attack would probably be something simmilar to that.

[RedEye]

Problem is...suppose there weren't any bears in the area? The movies seem to be divided as to Werewolf habitat; about half stick him in the city and the other half put him in the woods.

And there ain't no Bears in the city outside of Chicago, and there, they're just Cubs...

[Wolfzilla]

Problem is...suppose there weren't any bears in the area? The movies seem to be divided as to Werewolf habitat; about half stick him in the city and the other half put him in the woods.

And there ain't no Bears in the city outside of Chicago, and there, they're just Cubs...

Wasn't my point.

Point was, as a werewolf you could, in theory, mess up someone to the point where it looks like they've been attacked by an animal, and not killed by a human.

[Scott Gardener]

Even forensic investigators take for granted certain things, like that their perps are either humans or wild animals, not both in one organism. Werewolves, being presumed mythical and non-existent, create the perfect alibi. Where were you on the night of the full moon? Does it matter? He was killed by something with claws and huge, pointy teeth.

[Moonstalker]

Generally I'm sick of this "evil were" theme. I'd like to see more peaceful weres for a chance

[Howlitzer]

I've been doing a lot of thinking on the "evil werewolf" situation, and it suddenly occurs to me that being a werewolf must come with a lot of power. And it'd be very tempting to misuse that power. If you could rob, steal, or kill and get away with it.....would you? Transforming into a werewolf is comparable to adopting another persona. Putting on the perfect disguise that goes down to the bone. Someone pisses you off? Well, next full moon they die in a "mysterious animal attack", and no one would even think of looking for a human suspect. It'd be the perfect crime. It'd be very tempting to missuse the power that comes with being a werewolf, and even the best of people mught just..... fall from grace.

(Note: And if you're looking for my personal opinion, I love both kinds! I view werewolves being as diverse as humans, with both the benevolent and malicious, intelligent and instinctual, sides to them. Ying and Yang and all-that-stuff, y'know?)

Completely agree with that. I like werewolves, not just a small sub-set of the genre. All I ask is that the creators respect them. That's why I like Dog Soldiers. That's why I'm also seriously looking forward to Freeborn, which is going to have a completely different take on the genre.

Wolfzilla - your ideas are also very interesting. If someone took that plot and wrote a serious drama around it, the results could be very good indeed.

I'm with Midnight on that, Wolfzilla....that is interesting, and could make a very good story.

The idea of the werewolf being the same as the person, that doesn't quite do it, it's a big enough change to have to have some effect on who they are, or the capacity for who they could be. When you touch on the effect that suddenly becoming one would have on a person, that opens up possibilities.

I mean, an aggressive person might not remain so if they suddenly found themselves in this situation....just as a shy, timid person might not remain so if they were in this situation.

No matter how good or bad you thought this movie was, think the basic idea of "Willard".... a social misfit finds out he has power, and it could go either way. The fact that you have sympathy for him would further put his true character into question... he could use it for good or evil....but after being tormented by his peers, it drives him to act out his revenge on them. It wouldn't have to be *quite* as weird as that movie, but it could make a very good story.

[Scott Gardener]

Agreed; the "geek who became an ultra-powerful werewolf" could just as easily become the equivalent of a comic book superhero, anonymously using "superpowers" to intervene, be it through brute force, such as ripping and shredding would-be rapists, to more subtle and heroic methods, such as running into burning buildings, rescuing kids or kittens, and regenerating the burned fur and skin the following morning, no evidence of ever having been the mysterious creature that intervened.

[Howlitzer]

Agreed; the "geek who became an ultra-powerful werewolf" could just as easily become the equivalent of a comic book superhero, anonymously using "superpowers" to intervene, be it through brute force, such as ripping and shredding would-be rapists, to more subtle and heroic methods, such as running into burning buildings, rescuing kids or kittens, and regenerating the burned fur and skin the following morning, no evidence of ever having been the mysterious creature that intervened.

yeah, but a geek becoming a villain through similar circumstances...that's an option you'd have to consider as well.

[MattSullivan]

I like werewolves in the same way I like INDIANA JONES.

Meaning, that Indiana Jones is such a likeable character because he's NOT superhuman. He gets beat up, stolen from, and berated by every woman he's ever loved. He has FLAWS. Lots of them! But they only serve to make him a likeable character.

When I was writing Camp Lycanthrope, that's the dynamic I TRIED to imitate. I WANTED my werewolves to have flaws and weaknesses. They couldn't BE superheroes. It's why I decided to keep the "vulnerable to silver" angle. The needed to seem more like REAL PEOPLE than supernatural monsters.

But that's just me . I know a lot of people want to see werewolves as the FARTHEST thing from humans. Not me.

[Terastas]

I've been doing a lot of thinking on the "evil werewolf" situation, and it suddenly occurs to me that being a werewolf must come with a lot of power. And it'd be very tempting to misuse that power. If you could rob, steal, or kill and get away with it.....would you? Transforming into a werewolf is comparable to adopting another persona. Putting on the perfect disguise that goes down to the bone. Someone pisses you off? Well, next full moon they die in a "mysterious animal attack", and no one would even think of looking for a human suspect. It'd be the perfect crime. It'd be very tempting to missuse the power that comes with being a werewolf, and even the best of people mught just..... fall from grace.

That's the human element. And it's my understanding that that's what Freeborn is finally bringing to the werewolf genre: The potential for good and evil. I know I've said this a hundred times before, but I'll say it again: we human beings scare each other far more than any monster Hollywood could ever come up with. Applying the human element to werewolves can allow them to be gentle and compassionate, but it also allows them to be tactful, deceptive and sadistic.

Except for the people that like werewolf movies because they're such crap, I can't imagine anyone considering that a disservice to the werewolf image.

And just since it's already been mentioned by Matt, another key factor into the human element is imperfection.

I remember loving Die Hard for the same reason Matt said he liked Indiana Jones: Because the protagonist, Bruce McClane, is very human. When Nakamoti is killed, he bangs his head against the wall and berates himself over it. As he's crawling through the air ducts, he complains and makes fun of his wife. When he drops C4 down the elevator shaft, he underestimates its potency and damn near burns his face off. Hell, right at the very beginning he leaves his shoes behind -- he makes boneheaded mistakes just like the rest of us.

There's three things in my own writing that I always try to give every one of my characters:
- A bad habit.
- A pet peeve.
- A sense of humor.

I find characters that have those are much more believable, and that makes them much more likable in turn.

[Vuldari]

Are We Ruining Werewolves?

Not Really. There is plenty of room within the Genre for alternative interpretations and variant incarnations of the Creature.


However...

... I believe that it is essential that a place be saved within the genre for the traditional interpretations of the creature, in order for its essence, significance and cultural relevance to be preserved. I think there is still a need for some new stories involving "Evil Lycanthropy" ... in which the host is UnAble to resist committing inhuman acts while in their alter form, and likewise UnAble to resist the Transformation when the conditions are right ... and/or ... the Power which causes the body and mind to change is, in itself, inherently Evil, and imposed or invoked for Malevolent purposes.

The novelty of making a "Different" kind of story is lost if one goes out of their way to eliminate the previous "Norm" ... and ultimately making the Variant interpretation the new Norm, and therefore not different, or unique at all.


Also, (as I quite exhaustively covered in older threads), I still prefer that a Werewolf always be "Out of Control" of their alter self. The Beast must be strong enough to break out and cause the person to transform, regardless of their best efforts to resist, when the conditions are just so. (IMHO) "Control With Practice" is Lycanthropic BLASPHEMY as far as I'm concerned. "Limited Resistance/Willful Invocation ability with Practice", maybe ... but never CONTROL. If the Beast is tamed, 99% of the appeal of the Specific Creature/Character becomes Void and irrelevant. (again ... IMHO)

In addition, I also feel that it is an essential part of what a Werewolf/Lycanthrope IS that, once transformed, the person/animals behavior will ALWAYS significantly change. ... Not Necessarily "EVIL", (though I don't want to prohibit that either), but certainly "Unstable" and potentially "Dangerous", at ALL TIMES. (Not just in the beginning, but ALWAYS).

Dangerous and Unstable Behavior need not be limited to just "Killing and Maiming". Dealing with complex, intense, or difficult emotions or impulses the way a Wild Animal would, (rather than how a rational minded human would), could be manifested in more types of behavior than raw bloodshed. ... but at the same time, I still think werewolves should be "SCARY", so the potential threat of excessive Violence against better judgment is desirable and valuable to the Characters appeal and significance. (IMHO, as always)


To me, for a Werewolf to truly feel like a Werewolf, (and not just another kind of being with ShapeShifting Ability), it must be unstable in a way that almost any sane person would be afraid of THEM SELF once they became one. Not Necessarily "Evil", but certainly "Dangerous" to themselves and anyone and anything around them, from the beginning until the day they die. The "Curse" of being, not just dual FORMED, but Dual NATURED.


Other variations have their value and place as well, ... but those will always be "Variations" to me, and not REAL Werewolves. ("In My Humble Opinion")


Likewise, there is just as much a place for the ancient Legends/Myths/Stories about Werewolves that were not Evil or Dangerous at all, (wasn't there a Werewolf Saint?).

It just so happens I LIKE "Monster" stories from time to time ... Is there something wrong with that?

[Dreamer]

Good points Vuldari. But there can be non-werewolf variations on that archetype which you're talking about, such as Jeckyl and Hyde or the Wendigo of Native American folklore.

[Berserker]

The essence of the werewolf is the wolf, of course, and what the wolf is most about in reality, versus what he is least about. We've all but completely debunked the idea of the wolf as a ravenous, bloodthirsty monster. Unlike vampires, demons, and other creatures which remain mythical, wolves are knowable, and as such, are rarely an effective villain (the classic adage: that we fear what we don't understand.) As a result, modern werewolves must meet a conflict between their mythical origin and an animal that we not only perfectly understand, but whom many people uphold as the very symbol of natural beauty and freedom. Aside from their hokey special effects, maybe that's part of some unconscious reason why werewolf movies are magnificent box office failures, whereas vampire movies continue to draw great numbers. If the upcoming Wolf Man was not a remake of the classic original, and was instead a unique monster story of its own design, it would fail too.

So where should the monster now come from? If not from the wolf, from the human! (A very post-modern, but inevitable view.)

That's another reason why I don't think we're ruining werewolves. We're going with the flow. This is what the werewolf myth has come to; myths evolve as we experiment with them, morphing them to suit cultural trends and scientific knowledge, and the werewolf has been in the shop for quite some time. If that means we eventually get werewolf heroes fully in control of their abilities, well great, that's fine with me. What the werewolf meant in the past won't go away; that monster will always be a viable trope for those that desire it, even if they have to twist the legend to make it work.

(On a side note, aside from Freeborn, perhaps the future film rendition of New Moon, with its werewolf protagonist, will generate some interest, considering the enormous popularity of the Twilight series.)

[Midnight]

To me, for a Werewolf to truly feel like a Werewolf, (and not just another kind of being with ShapeShifting Ability), it must be unstable in a way that almost any sane person would be afraid of THEM SELF once they became one. Not Necessarily "Evil", but certainly "Dangerous" to themselves and anyone and anything around them, from the beginning until the day they die. The "Curse" of being, not just dual FORMED, but Dual NATURED.

Speaking as someone who likes the new vision of werewolves that Freeborn will be an example of... I've got no problem with your vision either. Think about it this way: of all the examples of werewolves on film and TV in the last 10 years, my all-time favourites have been Dog Soldiers and Tooth and Claw. Both of them are much more "traditional" than what I prefer... but (I've said this before, but it might have been elsewhere) arguing about whether your ideal werewolf or my ideal werewolf is the better is missing the point. It's like arguing over dark or light chocolate: the important thing is, it's chocolate.

Anyway I don't actually think your ideal werewolf is so different from what I'd like to see... sure, I'd like to see something sane and honourable in my werewolves, but I'd also like them to have a dual nature and for them to be scary as hell if crossed. (And Berserker makes a good point as well: if the myths about wolves have been debunked to a point that a creature with the mind of a wolf and the power of a human is no longer necessarily a monster, how about something with the power of a wolf and the cunning, ruthlessness and viciousness of a human?)

[Terastas]

OK Vuldari, no offense, but what you just described sounds to me like the typical Hollywood werewolf. Trust me, there is no shortage of werewolf movies that meet your criteria.

But that is basically the attitude I was alluding to earlier. A lot of werewolf fans define what a werewolf "MUST" be based solely on what they've seen in the movies, and a lot of said fans will hate Freeborn no matter what its werewolves are like simply because it won't be ridiculously cliche.

It's like saying:
"NO! A werewolf MUST be EXACTLY as described in all those other werewolf movies that I thought all sucked or it's not a real werewolf!"

Which is also kind of like saying:
"I'm already committed to hating your movie no matter what."

Sad but true, they're out there.

I know I said it already, but I'll say it again: if Hollywood's formulaic werewolf was just fine the way it was, movies like Cursed and Darkwolf wouldn't have sucked so bad, Freeborn would still be a direct-to-DVD called Devoured, and the Pack would have never come into being in the first place. The Pack isn't killing werewolves -- if anything, what we're trying to do is breathe life back into them.

[Vuldari]

First of all, if you actually read my entire message and paid attention to my phrasing, I never said that the type of creature I was describing is the ONLY way the creature could/should be interpreted (and even mentioned that some of the "OLD" myths I am so fond of were not that way at all) ... but is merely the Base Benchmark to which I compare all other Werewolf stories against, and is My personal favorite. Am I not allowed to have a different opinion and preference than you, or the popular majority within "The Pack"?


You can rant and rave and hate me all you want for it, but the truth of the matter is, I am a fan of Werewolves because I LIKED the creature and character the way it was introduced to me, through classic films and literature. I didn't have to kill it, tear it apart, and rebuild it into something completely different than what it was before it became something I felt was worth liking, like just about everyone else here has been doing.

When I first heard of Werewolves ... that is what they were ... and I found them to be quite fascinating characters exactly as they were originally presented to me.


I have no problem with taking a more creative approach to the creature. Creativity is great. ... I just happen to feel that it was already something GOOD as it had been told to be for the hundreds of years prior to recently, and that the Olde Werwulf still has plenty of life left in it, in my opinion.


It is a Shame and a Pity that only lousy film directors and script writers have been in control, or taken control of making films about that kind of creature up to this point ... but the mistakes made by others in the interest in cashing in on a cliche without putting honest effort into writing a good story to go along with their blood and gore effects does not change the fact that there is still room for someone to do it RIGHT.


A "Chiche" is an idea that is so Popular that it is over-used to the point of beginning to become irritating. ... but any cliche always begins with an idea that people LIKE.


The "Cliche", to me, is what sets Werewolves apart from all of the other Shapeshifter myths in the world. It's what makes it Unique.


It's really not MY problem that many of the rest of YOU don't want to see any more of those stories, or that version of the character.


... I DO ...


If you have a problem with that ... TOUGH.