Are we ruining werewolves?

[Kelpten]

Hmm, what if a werewolf were to simply revert to a normal wolf when transformed? Wolves are violent creatures; to deny this would be to go against their predator nature. If you retain just enough human to remove the wolf's natural fear of humans and to give it an extra dose of cunning, and possibly add the werewolf's hard-to-kill ability, you'd have a creature that might naturally hunt humans anyway. Probably not fit humans, but certainly children and weaker ones. Or it might attack a fit person over territory. Of course, it would also kill animals just as regularly. An intellegent wolf, not a monster, but certainly a threat to any lone villagers at night under a full moon

And Terastras, those movies could have worked, but they skimped on the spcial effects, plot, acting, and theme. No movie that leaves these things out (essencial to any good movie) can be good. At least The Wolf Man had a good internal struggle.

As Vuldari said, let's give them something new with Freeborn but also concentrate on keeping our tradition werewolf films free from mediocraty.

[Vuldari]

Exactly.

I am not "Anti - Freeborn" by any means. I'm exited about this new take on the creature as well. ... it is the reason this website even exists, and why I came to be part of this community in the first place.


I just happen to feel that it is not necessary to Boycot, hate, slam, destroy, kill and remove any and all un-flattering versions of the creature from even the POSSIBILITY of being used in the future (or even appreciated from the past) in order to introduce a new one. (One which is a more desirable creature to daydream about being/becoming)


... that is a little harsh and extreme ... and more than a little mean to people like me who still feel that Unstable Lycanthropy makes for Cool stories.



I Personally Prefer (Traditional) "Unstable" Werewolves, vs. "Domesticated/Tame" ones . I happen to feel they are far more exiting as plot elements and characters that way. That is Vuldari's opinion.

[Berserker]

[Vuldari]

[Berserker]

I don't believe Terastas has such a lack of reading composition that he would lump you in with an imagined group of people who would hate Freeborn just because it isn't traditional. (That was the crux of his post.) Especially since you've already loudly proclaimed that you like Freeborn-type werewolves and have nothing against them. But, he can defend himself if he wants to.

From what I've seen you're exaggerrating the opinions present on this board, Vuldari. I'm reminded of this guy's offbase rant.

Was it really different over a year ago? Because I'm just not seeing the ranting and raving hatred and herdthink that you're describing. And your end question is rhetorical, given the people in this very thread who have openly admitted to liking both kinds of werewolves.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Trust me, he's been this way ever since i first read his essay-posts 2-3 years earlier.

[Dreamer]

Yeah, Vuldari's allways been like that.

Well, actually as I said before, the archetype of man struggling aginst his inner evils could be done with other myths and stories, like the Wendigo or Dr,. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde.

And plus, the odd thing I noticed here is that the "full-moon changing uncontrollable monster struggling with a good human side" actually derives from the Hollywood films, whereas the "Freeborn" archetype actually does take little bits from werewolves in Mideval mythology. For, you see, from what I know the evil werewolves actually changed by their own free will and a pact with the devil, wereas the ones were cursed with it were actually usually the good ones (like Bisclavaret). So if you want to see werewolves get back to their actual basics, it would look more like "A Company of Wolves" than anything else.

Of course, I'm not saying your conception of werewolves is bad or anything, as it has made for quite a few great stories and will probably continue to still, I'm just saying it's not faithful to the original mmythology and it's actually somewhat based around other fictional archeypes.

[WerewolfKeeper3]

Okay, i'll admit, I'm tired of the old stereotypical werewolf. But whatever i said was usually directed to my story which i have yet to complete. And i remember over stating things a while before you left Vuldari, and i really felt bad for it. That fact is, the old stories, the myths and legends, are what i draw from. Some of them, especially about the ones where the werewolf is a good creature, i like, because most of the time, we see werewolves as creatures of evil...
Cursed, well only if you see it that way, is what i say. Monster... half the population that can't shift, would be put into that category...
frankly, the old werewolf isn't a bad thing. It's just... boring. The old way, everything is just so... predictable. Its like "Okay, he's going down to the basement... he's going into the dark part of the cellar... in five seconds werewolf one rips his head off.... op, it was ten seconds..." ANd the struggle idea, just made me nervous for the one involved. That, and i knew he was going to end up in the end of the story, or he'd be "cured". Either way, the werewolf dies, and the human is preserved. That, I'm royally sick of. i like Underworld, which is similar, but, HUGE SURPRISE: the werewolves are the GOOD guys for once. I like vampires too, and i have the same argument for the old vampire legends too... the Blade series wasn't bad, but, it was still predictable. Most people still can't see werewolves that aren't covered in . My story doesn't have the weaklings, "Oh, i can't fight because I'm good." My stories have the ones, that fight back when someone comes after them. The and power the old stories hold awaken whenever they do, but otherwise, it's basically a normal life story... sorta. I was bored with the old stories, that's all. I still refer to them whenever i need an idea for something. So i guess i proved some of your arguments, huh? Oh well. That's life i guess... and no, I'm not attacking anyone.

[Terastas]

Terastas responded to my message with that Comment because he was suggesting that I AM one of those people. Otherwise, there would not have been any reason for that response. It's called "Context".

If you are one of those people I was alluding to earlier, you're doing a good job hiding it. If you look back at my initial response, you'll notice that I mentioned alluding to that attitude held by some individuals earlier, IE: I had already mentioned that people would not like Freeborn for not being crap and cliche enough before you had even announced your return.

That aside, it strikes me as serious hypocrisy that you lecture me for (supposedly) not respecting and misrepresenting your personal opinion, then turn around and post broad statements like these:

I didn't have to kill it, tear it apart, and rebuild it into something completely different than what it was before it became something I felt was worth liking, like just about everyone else here has been doing.

I just happen to feel that it is not necessary to Boycot, hate, slam, destroy, kill and remove any and all un-flattering versions of the creature from even the POSSIBILITY of being used in the future (or even appreciated from the past) in order to introduce a new one.

... and if you watch the behavior and attitude of many of the Pack members here, they really are trying to kill the old Werewolf. Just watch how quickly and uncompromisingly others will put down, discourage, and express their collective hatred for the "Evil" werewolf any time anyone so much as mentions it.

They all say it, without directly saying it (though some DO come right out and say it), that "The Pack" (in their minds) was created for the sole purpose of re-inventing the Werewolf, rather than supporting the fandom of the existing Mythology. (The original title of this website was "Creating the ULTIMATE WEREWOLF".)

Besides you, who said anyone here was trying to kill the old werewolf? We've re-imagined the werewolf, yes, but who says you can't come up with a new idea without destroying an old one?

[Vuldari]

There are many, many, many "Shapeshifter" stories in history from many different cultures, and many of them involve a person who can become a
Wolf ... but that does not mean all of those a "Werewolf" stories.

In my mind (and to my understanding) the "Werewolf" is (or at least WAS) a specific type of one of these, loosely based upon the old "Werwulf" and other legends, which over time came to be it's own folktale, literature, dramatic fiction entity ... one that was almost always intended to be feared as a Monster in every tale it played a part in. This version of the creature was culturally and emotionally relevant to a much wider variety of people than many of the other variations, and similar shapeshifters and therefore, over time, came to be the most widely known incarnation and name for the creature to be known by.

However, (as is evidenced frequently within this web community), because that name, "Were-Wolf", came to be so much more frequently used and known, eventually people started calling ANYTHING that changes into a Wolf, or even a vaguely Wolf-Like creature a "Werewolf". This is a pet-peeve of mine. Not every Human that can change into a Wolf is a "WereWolf". (IMHO)


It is true that most of the older Werwulf stories in which the character/creature was EVIL involved someone invoking demonic power of some kind to change intentionally, but the remaining common factor was that they were Scary Monsters.

Over time, I think the idea of people being pure evil or good began to loose it's credibility within a story, and thus tales of someone being Evil enough to willfully choose to become a Monster and kill people for little or no reason just became too hard to believe, and those stories became less popular to tell. However, somewhere along the line, the idea of the Monsters bloodlust and rage being contagious and able to be passed on to it's victims (or forced upon them by other means as a "Curse") found it's way into the common mythology. The idea of ones more primitive, bestial drives and impulses taking control of them (who hasn't felt on the verge of "Snapping" every now and then?) is a concept that even modern, non Fanatical Religious God vs. Devil advocates can relate with, (and the literal physical change into a form that is not human adds that extra spark of SPICE that made the story a little more interesting to tell around a fire on a dark night, vs. something more intellectually Profound but conceptually Mundane like "Jekyll and Hyde") ... and thus, was the idea that was most popular ,relatively well known and relevant to use when Hollywood first was able to present their own take on the myth.

Hollywood did not INVENT that version of the creature ... they just dramatized and popularized it.




Today, the popular perception of what a WOLF is has dramatically changed for many, and they are no longer seen as the vicious, heartless killers they used to be feared as. As we come to know those fantastic animals better, it becomes harder and harder to believe that a Man/Wolf combination would be quite such a fearsome creature as it used to. Thus, I can understand and appreciate the resistance many of us here have to the idea of continuing to portray the "Werewolf" as a Cursed Monster ...

... however, I maintain the opinion that the primary principles, concept and dramatic presence of the "Monster" version of Lycanthropy is still the most viable incarnation of the creature for the purposes of creating emotionally significant stories today.


I just don't believe that the average person is likely to take seriously, or frankly "Give a $***" about a Creature that can simply change forms at will, but is otherwise totally calm and collected, and pretty much lives it's life with no concerns, fears or troubles more significant than "Racism" against their kind. Throw in regeneration, extended life expectancy, enhanced natural senses, and a friendly pack of fellow "Weres" that they get together with on Saturday nights, and I think all we have left is a (Super Powered, Superhero-like) character that absolutely NO ONE can relate with, and really does not feel like it belongs anywhere but in a paperback fantasy novel for pre-teens, a cartoon series, or a Furry Fan Fiction Website.


... and Honestly, if one of us DID write a good Pre-Teen Paperback Novel, Cartoon series or Furry Fan fiction story about that kind of "WereWolf", it would likely be very Popular ... but only among a select fanbase of daydreaming children, Furries and fanatics such as ourselves who have interest in the idea for our own reasons.



The reason that Film Makers and Horror Novelists keep writing about the same kind of Werewolf over and over again is because they are aware that is still the incarnation of the creature most people are most interested in seeing.

I am pissed at them all for taking advantage of the fact that merely implementing the "Tried and True" formula of, "Monster Appears ... Kills People ... is revealed to be a human suffering internal conflict ... is confronted and killed ... The End" is enough to draw in their intended audience and sell tickets ... and avoiding actually taking the trouble to write a more meaningful, deep and interesting story involving Lycanthropy as a driving plot element.

... but I still find the core concept of "Forced" and "Unstable" Lycanthropy to be the primary draw and point of interest for me about Werewolves specifically, vs. Shapeshifters in General (Who would be expected to have a great deal more willful control over their Metamorphic abilities, and mental state regardless of what form they may be in), which is another, seperate genre of interest for me as well.

[geekboy1500]

Vuldari has a good point here, just because some of us see Werewolves as "friendly", and think that is how it should be portrayed are entitled to their opinion, however, I do not believe that this concept would sell to a largish audience.

In my opinion the best blend of producibility (is that even a word?) and "OMG, evil Werewolf, ahhh, people die, end" is something along the lines of Matt's "Camp Lycanthrope" which portrays werewolves (at least in my interpretation) as people that deserve empathy but still have a "darker side"

[Vuldari]

... it strikes me as serious hypocrisy that you lecture me for (supposedly) not respecting and misrepresenting your personal opinion, then turn around and post broad statements like these:

I didn't have to kill it, tear it apart, and rebuild it into something completely different than what it was before it became something I felt was worth liking, like just about everyone else here has been doing.

I just happen to feel that it is not necessary to Boycot, hate, slam, destroy, kill and remove any and all un-flattering versions of the creature from even the POSSIBILITY of being used in the future (or even appreciated from the past) in order to introduce a new one.

... and if you watch the behavior and attitude of many of the Pack members here, they really are trying to kill the old Werewolf. Just watch how quickly and uncompromisingly others will put down, discourage, and express their collective hatred for the "Evil" werewolf any time anyone so much as mentions it.

They all say it, without directly saying it (though some DO come right out and say it), that "The Pack" (in their minds) was created for the sole purpose of re-inventing the Werewolf, rather than supporting the fandom of the existing Mythology. (The original title of this website was "Creating the ULTIMATE WEREWOLF".)

Those statements were "Broad" because I was not speaking about any one person in particular, but rather common attitudes and opinions that I have repeatedly observed over the years, including recently.

I really can't see how you can deny that these attitudes have been quite prevalent. It is plain as day to me that those are the opinions and attitudes most popularly held and presented by the majority of the pack.

Besides you, who said anyone here was trying to kill the old werewolf? We've re-imagined the werewolf, yes, but who says you can't come up with a new idea without destroying an old one?

YOU are.

I entered this conversation with my opinion on the matter, and YOU responded with an unflattering rant about all of the reasons why my opinion, and preferential version of the "Werewolf" is WRONG and should never be used again ... effectively forbidding me, or anyone else, from actually being allowed to LIKE the version of the Werewolf that "Hollywood" chose to adopt and popularize.

Your attitude clearly shows that you are not willing to even passively support me, or anyone else, who wants to see the continuation of the legacy of one of the the Pillars of the "Movie Monster Quartet" (Dracula, The Frankenstein Monster, The Mummy, and The Wolfman ... and to a lesser extent ... Zombies, Ghosts/Phantoms and the Swamp Monster)


I'll stop accusing you of that as soon as you can prove to us that you can let someone say they like that kind of Werewolf without responding to it with unwavering opposition.


I admit to presenting reasons why I am less fond of, and less supportive of this "NEW" kind of werewolf vs. the Classical Mythological (the ones that were actually WEREWOLF stories, and not just, "Shapeshifter" stories) and Campy Hollywood versions. I have even been undeniably discouraging about it ... but only in the interest of explaining a different perspective on the matter, in defense of an abused genre which I feel still has potential and value as it was, without needing to be so completely re-invented.

"Cursed" and "Darkwolf" were terrible movies because they were terrible movies ... not because the base concept was bad. It all depends on how it is used. Haven't you ever seen a terrible movie based off of a great book? ... or a seemingly worthless/stupid idea that turned out great?


You don't like Hollywood Werewolves ... that's fine. I can see and understand your reasons for feeling that way.

However, I would appreciate it if you would try not to respond with such a "How DARE You" attitude to anyone who disagrees with you.

... who says you can't come up with a new idea without destroying an old one?

No one.


Why can't you promote your new idea while also continuing to be supportive to fans of the old one at the same time?

... that is what I would like to know ...

[JoshuaMadoc]

I just don't believe that the average person is likely to take seriously, or frankly "Give a $***" about a Creature that can simply change forms at will, but is otherwise totally calm and collected, and pretty much lives it's life with no concerns, fears or troubles more significant than "Racism" against their kind. Throw in regeneration, extended life expectancy, enhanced natural senses, and a friendly pack of fellow "Weres" that they get together with on Saturday nights, and I think all we have left is a (Super Powered, Superhero-like) character that absolutely NO ONE can relate with, and really does not feel like it belongs anywhere but in a paperback fantasy novel for pre-teens, a cartoon series, or a Furry Fan Fiction Website.

I see you're still lumping them with spandex-clad automatons that shoot dinky beams out of their hands...

I'm sorry, but you still say it like as if you've completely overlooked scenarios (i.e. Tony Stark complex) that would potentially offset this belief of yours, which unfortunately still disturbs me.

[Vuldari]

Tony Stark Complex? ...

How exactly is that any different?

Do you mean, in the respect of a person being afflicted with some sort of initially negative condition, and turning their bad luck around to use it against the types of forces that stuck them with that affliction in the first place, redeeming themselves for their past sins in the process ... aka "When Life gives you lemons, make lemonade"? (Only replacing Anthony Starks life support suit, turned battle armor, with Lycanthropy)


I still think that the number of people who would be exited to see a Werewolf Hero story, (where the person puts on their Fur the way Tony Puts on his Armor to anonymously strike back at the REAL bad guys), is still not nearly significant enough to warrant making that the new standard for Lycanthropy based fiction, instead of the well established and undeniably popular (bad or not, the films keep selling tickets) Movie Monster version.


Really ... it is primarily just Furries and Abnormally Pro Wolf Supporters with affinities for fantasy/sci-fi ("Us") who have any significant interest in seeing that. If done well, I'm sure the mass populace could be enlightened to look at the concept in a new way, and this the popularity skew could be completely shifted the opposite way with one really great Film/Novel ...

... but I still say the opposite is true as well.

Most of you hate the "Monster" Werewolf because it has been so horribly misused ... but I'm quite confident that there is a great deal of potential in that beyond the shallow plot lines they have commonly been used in, and likewise, it would just take one really Great Movie/Novel to turn most of you around on the subject and see what I have been so stubbornly insistent about all this time.

[Kelpten]

Please guys, knock it off. Vuldari, you just got back and you're already arguing all out with Testaras. Which, come to think of it, you did before you left too. I guess old habbits die hard...

Anyway, suffice it to say that both werewolf types can be explored on this board. Ok?

[JoshuaMadoc]

Tony Stark Complex? ...

How exactly is that any different?

Do you mean, in the respect of a person being afflicted with some sort of initially negative condition, and turning their bad luck around to use it against the types of forces that stuck them with that affliction in the first place, redeeming themselves for their past sins in the process ... aka "When Life gives you lemons, make lemonade"? (Only replacing Anthony Starks life support suit, turned battle armor, with Lycanthropy)


I still think that the number of people who would be exited to see a Werewolf Hero story, (where the person puts on their Fur the way Tony Puts on his Armor to anonymously strike back at the REAL bad guys), is still not nearly significant enough to warrant making that the new standard for Lycanthropy based fiction, instead of the well established and undeniably popular (bad or not, the films keep selling tickets) Movie Monster version.


Really ... it is primarily just Furries and Abnormally Pro Wolf Supporters with affinities for fantasy/sci-fi ("Us") who have any significant interest in seeing that. If done well, I'm sure the mass populace could be enlightened to look at the concept in a new way, and this the popularity skew could be completely shifted the opposite way with one really great Film/Novel ...

... but I still say the opposite is true as well.

Most of you hate the "Monster" Werewolf because it has been so horribly misused ... but I'm quite confident that there is a great deal of potential in that beyond the shallow plot lines they have commonly been used in, and likewise, it would just take one really Great Movie/Novel to turn most of you around on the subject and see what I have been so stubbornly insistent about all this time.

Almost as i thought, you've ignorantly misread what i'm lamenting, so i may as well be "just as" ignorant. As i've said, you still like to lump the fantastical types with spandex-clad automatons who shoot dinky beams out of their exaggerated pose-y hands and fly with one or both fists proudly facing skyward.

What you seem to be completely overlooking is not the fact that Stark built a muscle suit powered by his converted pacemaker, but the fact that Stark is a major drunk and a drug addict. He's basically one of the only superheroes that a spandex-hater like me have come to genuinely admire, because not only are his abilities man-made, but he also doesn't lead a perfect life (in fact he can be mentally unstable), making him more realistic compared to the numerous (and oftentimes orphaned) spandex clones that are out there.

[Vuldari]

Tony Stark Complex? ...

How exactly is that any different?

Do you mean, in the respect of a person being afflicted with some sort of initially negative condition, and turning their bad luck around to use it against the types of forces that stuck them with that affliction in the first place, redeeming themselves for their past sins in the process ... aka "When Life gives you lemons, make lemonade"? (Only replacing Anthony Starks life support suit, turned battle armor, with Lycanthropy)


I still think that the number of people who would be exited to see a Werewolf Hero story, (where the person puts on their Fur the way Tony Puts on his Armor to anonymously strike back at the REAL bad guys), is still not nearly significant enough to warrant making that the new standard for Lycanthropy based fiction, instead of the well established and undeniably popular (bad or not, the films keep selling tickets) Movie Monster version.


Really ... it is primarily just Furries and Abnormally Pro Wolf Supporters with affinities for fantasy/sci-fi ("Us") who have any significant interest in seeing that. If done well, I'm sure the mass populace could be enlightened to look at the concept in a new way, and this the popularity skew could be completely shifted the opposite way with one really great Film/Novel ...

... but I still say the opposite is true as well.

Most of you hate the "Monster" Werewolf because it has been so horribly misused ... but I'm quite confident that there is a great deal of potential in that beyond the shallow plot lines they have commonly been used in, and likewise, it would just take one really Great Movie/Novel to turn most of you around on the subject and see what I have been so stubbornly insistent about all this time.

Almost as i thought, you've ignorantly misread what i'm lamenting, so i may as well be "just as" ignorant. As i've said, you still like to lump the fantastical types with spandex-clad automatons who shoot dinky beams out of their exaggerated pose-y hands and fly with one or both fists proudly facing skyward.

What you seem to be completely overlooking is not the fact that Stark built a muscle suit powered by his converted pacemaker, but the fact that Stark is a major drunk and a drug addict. He's basically one of the only superheroes that a spandex-hater like me have come to genuinely admire, because not only are his abilities man-made, but he also doesn't lead a perfect life (in fact he can be mentally unstable), making him more realistic compared to the numerous (and oftentimes orphaned) spandex clones that are out there.

I fail to see what you are claiming I missed. "Imperfection?" I believe I eluded to that with the statement "...redeeming their past sins...", which suggests that the person was anything but a perfect angel prior to contracting Lycanthropy. It is simply a logical assumption after that to say that said person is not going to instantly become a selfless saint afterwards.

I did not specify WHAT their sins were, because I thought it was more appropriate to be more vague when talking about an entire concept, rather than a specific example of one. Fine ... you want a more specific example of what I was suggesting, (which you seem to think was completely missing the point)?


Private Mayweather, a Drug Addict from South Carolina, joined the Army to run away from his trainwreck of a life, where he regularly beat his girlfriend, especially when his drug of choice was not on hand, and she eventually got a court restraining order against him, even though she still secretly loved him. With nothing left to loose, Mayweather volunteered to do whatever Jack@** mission the army asked of him, secretly hoping he would be killed in the process, so he would be celebrated as a hero, and erase the rest of the stupid things he had done (In his own mind). He ends up getting deployed with a shady squad of mercenary minded soldiers with nothing to lose like himself, and are dropped in a old Romanian town where they are ordered to discretely "liquidate" some locals who being touted as "Terrorists". Long story short, the "Terrorists" turn out to be the remnants of a pack of Werewolves that were hiding out in the village under false identities. The squad is nearly massacred, but all of the werewolves are slain. When the wounded soldiers report back to base, dragging the bodies of their slain comrades back with them, the Command team kills the survivors in cold blood, burns their bodies, and then denies any connection to the men that opened fire in the city. Only Mayweather survives, buried in the rubble of the building that was burned down during the firefight, so his friends were not able to pull him out. In an ironic twist of fate, the blood of the Werewolf Refugees he killed with his own hands with heartless apathy endows him with lycanthropy, giving him the ability to recover from what should have been fatal wounds ... minus one lost arm.

Thus begins the story of the Mayweather Wolf saga ... as the man given a second lease on life is left abandoned by everyone he ever trusted, and travels alone in foreign lands seeking to uncover the truth behind the Conspiracy that sought to slaughter the clan of lycanthropes, and stabbed him and the close friends he had made in his squad in the back ... all the while, bitterly brooding over his heartbreak over loosing the one girl he truly loved (even if he wished to be a better person now, and knew he would never beat her again ... how could she ever come to love the monster he had become?), and the loss of his arm ... which he feels constant phantom pains from, and continues to abuse various illegal drugs to alleviate his pain, and drown the chaos of his forced-life ... occasionally attempting suicide, but always being foiled by his bodies own regenerative capacities.

... all leading up the the eventual bitter-sweet happy ending, (after plenty of side tracked sub-adventures, murder, pain and redemption), of getting his revenge against the Corrupt politicians who turned his life into a kind of endless hell he had never even imagined possible, and being reunited with his true love, who accepts him, even after what he has become, what he had done to her, and all of the people he had killed before and after becoming a Werewolf (some deserving, and some not), and at long last, he finds peace in his lovers arms.



Is that flawed and human enough for you?? (I totally just made all of that up on the spot)


... alright ...



I believe you still may find that, if you tried to describe a scenario like this to a casual reader or moviegoer, their eyes would roll the moment you say "Werewolf", and they would stop listening after that. I think it would just be really hard for most people to take the idea of a Werewolf Vigilante/Hero character seriously.


... and though I would enjoy seeing/reading this kind of story as well, I still want to see someone do a REALLY, REALLY good Wolfman, "Internal Struggle" Monster Movie Movie, in the old Hollywood, Campfire Tradition. (Though maybe one that does not necessarily end with the Monster Being killed in the end, like all of the others do, but instead resolving the crisis in a more inventive and inspiring way)

[Terastas]

Vuldari, I never objected to your personal opinion as to what makes a good werewolf. Here is what I object to:

1) Your inability to support your argument with anything other than "just because" or "that's how it's supposed to be."

We didn't just pull the Freeborn werewolf out of our dreams. We discussed and debated for years; we asked "what if" and "how come" and came to mutual conclusions based on those which eventually lead to a rough draft of what a werewolf would be.

Where were you when all of this was going on? You've been a registered member of the pack almost as long as I have -- you've been around long enough to remember when we were asking really base stuff like "should werewolves have tails?" You couldn't have made it past the 3000 post mark just by idling; if you thought the Hollywood werewolf was perfect or in need of preservation, you could have stepped up and said something before we had a consensus on anything.

But you didn't. Instead you went right along with it for over a year, then suddenly pulled a Jekyll & Hyde on us and lashed out at the Pack as a whole.

2) Your highly-vocal and unrestrained hostility towards anyone with an opinion contrary to your own.

I don't object to you having an opinion Vuldari, I object to the way you present it. As I said before, expecting everyone to respect your opinion while slamming everyone else for having different opinions is hypocrisy.

3) Your intentional misrepresentation and broad generalization of the Pack's opinion(s) in general.

Nobody here is trying to "make furry" the werewolf image. The closest thing to a "furry" werewolf I have seen is the work of Matt Sullivan (who is making a cartoon for the love of Mike), and even they have some very clear gray areas. Last I checked, most people at the Pack are lobbying for a werewolf with the human element, which can include an inability to control one's primal side, but is not limited to it.

You, on the other hand, have implied, not only that we never had any active discussions or may have once had contrasting opinions (my own version of the werewolf has undergone several rewrites thanks to the Pack's inspiration), but that we are intentionally trying to make werewolves cute and cuddly. Apart from the aptly-named "showing the werewolf's softer side" thread, some comments that were not meant to be taken seriously and the usual duck-tossing, I have not seen what you claim everyone in the Pack is doing.

You might want to think of yourself as some martyr for the classic werewolf, but all you're coming across as is a high-strung fanboy (not yet a P-shifter, but something damn close to it). I understand that the creative minds behind the Hollywood werewolf didn't just pull it out of their asses, but we here at the Pack didn't create the Freeborn werewolf that way either.

[Kelpten]

*sigh* here we go again...

[Vuldari]

As the most exhaustively verbose person in The Pack, (often taking several paragraphs, pages, or writing entire essays explaining exactly why I feel or believe what I do about any particular topic), I'm a little confused by your first point.


Secondly, I made no objections initially to the very Non-Traditional ideas that I helped come up with, because at the time I thought I could take for granted that the Pack would still support the "Old Skool" Monster Movie traditions as well. (It's what we all grew up with after all).

I only began to get defensive when people began to slam on me and others (like you did), every time one of us brought the "Curse"/"Monster" werewolf scenarios up in conversation, with the suggestion that there was, and still is something good about them. ... and that I might like to see more of them, in spite of past flops.


Thirdly, where in this debate did I make a counter argument against an idea or suggestion I don't agree with (or don't prefer), without pairing said counter argument with a validating comment in support of the point I am arguing against, somewhere within the same message?

I thought I was being very open ended in that respect.





Lastly ... Why do the two of us seem to mix like Oil and Water?


Kelpten is right ... this is exactly where we left off a year ago. It took only a single thread to get us at each others throats again.



... we just can't seem to get along with each other for very long, can we? ...

[JoshuaMadoc]

-Giant scissor snip-

.....

I'm at a loss for words. This scenario you just described was, according to this Mayweather guy's incentive to fight the conspiracy, the exact same incentive that most western media flops make up and the exact same biographical structure that too many western superheroes have. Person grows up, person suffers from orphanitis, person becomes some Deadpool wannabe who can't stop rambling on about another person responsible for said orphanitis.

I do not find this "flawed and human". Rather, i find it one-dimensional.

But since you were determined enough to go as far as to make this mini-scenario, allow me to share you one of my cherished (but still incomplete) characters.

--

Jung, offspring to a male korean werewolf and a female japanese werewolf, herself a former Onmyodo practitioner from the Heian period, was born in japan, during the warring states, some time after Oda Nobunaga got hold of pretty much japan itself. When he was young, he'd often wonder why some people shy away (or in some cases, run away) from him because of his unnaturally pale skin, his snow white hair, and his ghostly eyes, while those who smell like him are able to converse with him naturally. His parents, relatives and friends would then explain to him that those people are humans, and humans aren't naturally accustomed to such strange things, thinking they're more like otherworldly phenomena. They also told him that it would most likely scare them even more if he changed his form in front of them (especially when he's much larger when he changes), because then they'd think of him as some kind of flesh-eating spirit. So Jung took this to consideration and disguised himself to look more human, like many of his kind did, in order to explore the cities. At some point, he met Nobunaga after he was invited to come to Azuchi Castle with his parents for discussion about trading. Jung at first was nervous into meeting him due to Nobunaga's reputation, but became comfortable with him when he lived up to his name as the "Fool of Owari".

One day, Jung was accidentally seen washing off his disguise by Nobunaga. Afraid of being exposed, he hurriedly tried to hide in the bathing water, but Nobunaga soon jumped in as well and told Jung that if Ranmaru saw him instead, he would've been screaming the word "ghost" like a girl. By that time, Oda Nobunaga became one of the first human friends Jung ever had in his life.

Slowly but surely, Jung became more open about himself, and eventually became confident enough to reveal his true nature as a werewolf, something that surprised Nobunaga little, as he'd recall being in battle with similar creatures hired to protect Yoshimoto Imagawa in Okehazama. In return, he introduced Jung to his vassals, his army, and his friends, most of whom he got along with well. Typical dynamic relationships.

Unfortunately, things took a tragic turn when Jung heard news of Nobunaga on the verge of death from Mitsuhide Akechi's coup d'etat in Honnoji temple. He ran as fast as he could, and by the time he arrived, the temple was already burning. Thinking that Nobunaga might be dead, he rushed inside to find him, which he did. However, Nobunaga really was on the verge of death with numerous fatal wounds he received when he fought against Mitsuhide's men. Jung pleaded to Nobunaga to come with him so that he can be healed, but Nobunaga refused, insisting that the medicine Jung's kind has would most likely backfire on him. Instead, as a last favor to his friend, Nobunaga tells Jung to kill him, jokingly adding that he can kill Mitsuhide when he becomes a spirit. Jung became even more upset and desperately refused to kill Nobunaga, afraid that his loneliness will get the better of him. Nobunaga just smiled and tells him, "I'm sure you'll find plenty of friends like me during your lifetime," and was finally killed by a sorrowful Jung in return for Nobunaga suddenly attacking him.

Shortly after, Jung undauntingly carried Nobunaga's body to Mt. Kouya, where he was then buried using only his hands. Mitsuhide, wounded but alive, had been following Jung from Honnoji temple, and tried to ambush him from behind, but Jung firmly told him to leave, adding that Nobunaga would scold him if he became involved in his affairs -- apparent during the times when Nobunaga flatly refuses to recruit Jung into his army in many of his campaigns, concerned that it would risk unnecessary exposure to his kind. When Mitsuhide asks if he intends to kill humans because of him, Jung replies that hating humans hardly ever crossed his mind, and even if he did, he would eventually grow tired of it and have a change of heart. Hearing this, Mitsuhide then left the grave, while Jung lamented for days until he fell asleep, where he was then found by Genkurou, the mother of his childhood friend within the circle of shapeshifters, and was taken home.

--

That was only a synoptic version of part one. Heck, i'm not even DONE with it yet. I still haven't written about his time with Hideyoshi, his former homosexual relationship with an old werewolf friend of his from Britain, his stressful time as a soldier in a japanese pacific army camp in WW2, his time as a high school student in the 80s, his present-day life as a legit grandmaster of Zoanthropy and father of 3, his relationship with his childhood friend (and wife), and his long-running search for his parents when he was afflicted with a fate-related curse.

I haven't even made a Lothlorien-style book about how Zoanthropy in my universe works.

But THAT is my vision of "flawed and human".

[Terastas]

As the most exhaustively verbose person in The Pack, (often taking several paragraphs, pages, or writing entire essays explaining exactly why I feel or believe what I do about any particular topic), I'm a little confused by your first point.

My point was that the Pack werewolf is the byproduct of years of discussion. Very little that went into the Pack werewolf was decided solely by personal opinion. Instead of just blurting out our own preferences, we held active discussions concerning what we knew about the Hollywood werewolf, trying to offer theories as to why it could be that way and making changes as we came to them.

The full moon, for example, we discussed on the psychological level, and while we did agree that the lunar affect is very real, we didn't think it was enough to justify a shift occurring every full moon by default, thus the Pack werewolf is one that can gradually learn to control his "shifting reflexes" over time.

It's therefore aggravating to see you trying to prop up the traditional werewolf with only "I like it" and "pay homage to the original" to support it. We get that you like it, but tell us something about the traditional werewolf and chances are we'll be able to forward you to the thread where we discussed and decided that it is true, may or may not be true, or definitely couldn't be true. There's no science to lycanthropy, but we did our best to discuss lycanthropy objectively.

What you're doing, Vuldari, is very similar in nature to P-shifting: you presented your own personal opinion as fact and lashed out at anyone and everyone that questioned it.

I only began to get defensive when people began to slam on me and others (like you did), every time one of us brought the "Curse"/"Monster" werewolf scenarios up in conversation, with the suggestion that there was, and still is something good about them. ... and that I might like to see more of them, in spite of past flops.

I never said that. I remember saying "I think werewolves would find those terms offensive" or something along those lines, but I don't ever remember saying it was wrong to like traditional werewolves. Once again you intentionally misrepresented us.

Thirdly, where in this debate did I make a counter argument against an idea or suggestion I don't agree with (or don't prefer), without pairing said counter argument with a validating comment in support of the point I am arguing against, somewhere within the same message?

When have you ever paired your counter arguments with a validating comment? You have yet to show any support for the traditional werewolf beyond it being tradition and your personal preference, and instead you demonize the Pack and our own interpretations with boatloads of false accusations about "destroying the werewolf" and such. Your memory is very selective when it comes to any statements made to the contrary.

I've said it many times before, but since you always seem to forget, I'll say it again: It's not your opinion that we detest Vuldari, it's the way you respond with hostility towards the rest of the Pack for having different opinions. And really, it's only two or three people that have faulted you for it, and yet you take out your frustration on the Pack as a whole. Explain to me why that is justified.

Why do you and I always mix like oil and water? Because I'm the only one here that won't put up with all your crap with respect for your seniority, that's why. I don't know what made you change, but I know that you did change, and that's all I need to know. Canonize yourself all you want; throw a tantrum, tell us your leaving, lock yourself in your bedroom and tell yourself over and over again that we're all a bunch of A-holes for not recognizing your true brilliance, especially that damn tiger with the blue fur.

Big whoop. I've been through this a hundred times before already, and for the Pack, I'd do it a hundred times again.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Don't forget to blame the potty-mouthed revolutionary and sole muslim who hardly gets noticed by everybody else...

[Midnight]

[JoshuaMadoc]

In case this last lot was all tl;dr, then I'll put the main point here bluntly for the two of you: Just. Calm. Down.

I've been calm since this morning, but thanks anyway. I was on the edge of relapsing on my debate addiction.