Mounted combat, only with wolves and shapeshifters as mounts

[JoshuaMadoc]

Genius title. *cough*

Anyway, ITT we discuss about werewolves acting as actual mounts that are able to do much more than gallop, graze, poop, neigh, and do mean horse kicks... Alright, i guess i don't know jack about actual war horses.

According to my written universe, werewolves of appropriate size and ability can be trained to become mounts for either human riders or fellow shapeshifter riders in human forms. The lower ranks would see to it that the mounts go about using standard weaponry and equipment, and the rider be of a similar caliber, though experienced riders can help train the mount using whatever knowledge is at the riders' disposal. As the mount climbs up in ranks, they are given a wider selection of weapons, though they are permitted to stick to the weapon their hands (or paws) are familiar with in battle. An "active ranks supervisor" would be needed if a mount wishes to advance quickly in ranks due to circumstances such as previous experiences.

Weapons range from the standard weapons found in regular armies, but training allows for use of more exotic weapons.

Saddles are also important due to the shape they're designated to be. Unlike regular saddles, shapeshifter saddles must be able to accomodate the rider in situations that regular saddles are unable to do, namely the part where sharp changes of mount posture are prominent.

Teamwork can be highly beneficial to both mount and rider, as any partnership with excellent teamwork can help each other in combat with minimal trouble indirectly caused by each other, or be able to sustain each other when not in combat. Poor teamwork may cause the opposite effect, but in some cases, overcoming this predicament serves as a valuable lesson to both mount and rider if they are to learn from it.

--

The picture below is of a highly skilled shapeshifter archer and a skilled, but relatively inexperienced wolf mount. Under the archer's request, the saddle is modified to completely expose the saddle itself to allow for versatile foot positioning, while the mount both goes to bipedal or quadrupedal positions, as the archer is capable of constantly changing his footing. As you can see, the shape of the saddle favors a more vertical design with the mount's head facing skyward. Less experienced riders would find this design somewhat disadvantageous if the mount was to be in a vertical position with the mount's head facing earthward. This can be offset with the lower part of the saddle hollowed, and the saddle surface be made to be able to flex backwards when the rider pulls his back outwards. Oh, and uh, note that the mount also wears a helmet with what looks to be a plate that's designed to protect the rider from the front side. The archer is THAT good for him to be mostly standing when shooting.



--

And as a side note, I wrote all that without a lick of research. Yay me.

[Aki]

That pretty awesome, and I have to say, this is probably the first thread of it's kind on here, haha. Not many folks tie werewolves to use as mounts, I suppose, but the idea's rather interesting. A thinking mount complete with big a** fangs and claws would be incredibly handy.

[Terastas]

I never specifically had "mounts" in either of my settings, but the possibility could certainly be open. One thing I've written in both is that werekin of any variety will often assume their 100% animal form in order to avoid criminal and/or political prosecution, and in the case of my alternative universe setting, will employ themselves as pets or service animals, and in fact are preferred for such since they can follow advanced instructions with no training. Werewolves may serve as guard dogs or seeing-eye dogs, weretigers are often employed by illusionists, etc., etc.

With that already established, there would definitely be some room for werewolves to serve as mounts. I could easily see a werewolf employing himself as a pack animal, but for a werewolf to act as a mount, it would have to be as you already called it: a large werewolf with a small rider (like the werewolf equivalent of a jockey, I suppose).

[Wingman]

We are the jockeys, the jockeys are we, we live underground in a fiberglass tree.

[Lupin]

Any ideas for things like range or top/speed compared to horses?

I wonder if a shapeshifter would need a equivalent amount of armor compared to a non shapeshifting mount.

[Terastas]

Any ideas for things like range or top/speed compared to horses?

Probably less than that of a horse in both regards, although this would be balanced out by a werewolf's ability to think tactically and move evasively without the rider's instruction. A horse's primary weakness would be its indifference to the war; it constantly needs to be guided by the reigns. A werewolf, on the other hand, could be counted on to move via simple verbal commands, if not simply by his own willpower alone, and let his rider focus primarily on his opponents.

I wonder if a shapeshifter would need a equivalent amount of armor compared to a non shapeshifting mount.

Whatever armor a werewolf mount would have would have to be minimal. If the werewolf (or any kind of mount for that matter) can't run under the burden of its equipment, the rider might very well be better off on foot. The werewolf's lack of defense would be balanced out, I think, by his ability to evade attacks and regenerate.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Any ideas for things like range or top/speed compared to horses?

I wonder if a shapeshifter would need a equivalent amount of armor compared to a non shapeshifting mount.

Ugh, thanks for asking something I haven't put much thought about yet.

Although Terastas has a plausible answer about the speed of a majority of werewolf mounts, I don't think I can agree with the range... If he's talking about how far he/she can go in the long run. Maybe in the short run, their range is lower, but from what little I know, aren't horses grass-eaters? If that's the case, then a werewolf's combined human diet may make for much longer trips with bigger coverage, and a wide variety of food to choose from should their own food supply be completely depleted from their inventory.

As for armor, my answer to that would be that it highly depends on how each mount cadet first fared in the strength, endurance and dexterity trial on both weapons and armor. I don't know if horses can be trained to build up their bodies, but I'm sure werewolves can definitely train their bodies to open themselves to heavier or more intricate equipment. Training methods is can also affect the results, thus the pros and cons of training regimes vary from country to country, clan to clan, tribe to tribe, and so on.

(Now the only challenges left for me to do for both of these points is how to elaborate them... Just like the others fffffffff)

[Terastas]

Although Terastas has a plausible answer about the speed of a majority of werewolf mounts, I don't think I can agree with the range... If he's talking about how far he/she can go in the long run. Maybe in the short run, their range is lower, but from what little I know, aren't horses grass-eaters? If that's the case, then a werewolf's combined human diet may make for much longer trips with bigger coverage, and a wide variety of food to choose from should their own food supply be completely depleted from their inventory.

I was thinking range as in how far/long the mount could run continuously. Horses are herd animals; they stop to graze all the time, but when they run they move as one. Wolves, on the other hand, are hunters; they only run when pursuing prey, and the rest of the time they move at slower paces to conserve their strength.

A werewolf could travel for longer periods of time without rest on account of their being part human (IE: stubborn: "Sleep?! Don't need no stinkin' sl-" *faints*), and because of their regeneration, but I think they would tire out and slow down sooner, or at the very least would get sick of the little runt getting a free ride on his back and insist that he get off and walk for a while.

They are human after all. Ask yourself if you could run on all fours with a hobbit on your back for an extended period of time.

On a slightly unrelated note, there was a clip I remember seeing on Youtube once. I wasn't able to find it again tonight, but it was a scene cut from the movie 300 that featured a Persian archer riding on the shoulders of a blinded, armless giant (presumably cut because it was unrealistic even by 300's standards). The scene reduced the giant pretty much to just an animal, like a moving sniper's perch, and since the giant can't defend himself, it only takes one Spartan to take the giant's legs off.

I mention that because it got me to thinking: had the giant not been enslaved/crippled and actually consented to being ridden, the two of them could have been quite a force, with the archer using his elevated position to get better distance and the mount being capable of fighting close-range melee should anyone get too close.

Something like that I could envision a werewolf and his rider doing. I think it's how they'd prefer to travel long distances too: walking upright. Part of what would make a werewolf mount so valued would be its human elements, and in order to maintain those human elements, they couldn't subject the werewolf to anything dehumanizing (like being ridden like a horse) unnecessarily. The last thing they should want is for the werewolf to suddenly become accustomed to getting treated like an animal; they might forget all the things that make them human.

[JoshuaMadoc]

I was thinking range as in how far/long the mount could run continuously. Horses are herd animals; they stop to graze all the time, but when they run they move as one. Wolves, on the other hand, are hunters; they only run when pursuing prey, and the rest of the time they move at slower paces to conserve their strength.

Again, I would answer this with how much they've worked on their endurance and stamina.

A werewolf could travel for longer periods of time without rest on account of their being part human (IE: stubborn: "Sleep?! Don't need no stinkin' sl-" *faints*), and because of their regeneration, but I think they would tire out and slow down sooner, or at the very least would get sick of the little runt getting a free ride on his back and insist that he get off and walk for a while.

They are human after all. Ask yourself if you could run on all fours with a hobbit on your back for an extended period of time.

I can say that werewolves with top-tier regeneration can go for serious amounts of insomniac travelling as an advantage, but of course, this is according to my written lore. If they do have to stop, more likely it's the rider asking the mount to set up camp because of butt cramps or some other soreness from sleeping at the same position for days on end.

As for the rider getting a free ride, this would mostly come down to the relationship of both mount and rider, because there's bound to be mounts that more or less do not mind the rider be getting a free ride throughout the trip, for reasons like "you're my husband, why wouldn't I let you ride with me?" or some other reason like the rider being struck with illness and whatnot, although that'll make the mount's job all the more harder.

On a slightly unrelated note, there was a clip I remember seeing on Youtube once. I wasn't able to find it again tonight, but it was a scene cut from the movie 300 that featured a Persian archer riding on the shoulders of a blinded, armless giant (presumably cut because it was unrealistic even by 300's standards). The scene reduced the giant pretty much to just an animal, like a moving sniper's perch, and since the giant can't defend himself, it only takes one Spartan to take the giant's legs off.

I mention that because it got me to thinking: had the giant not been enslaved/crippled and actually consented to being ridden, the two of them could have been quite a force, with the archer using his elevated position to get better distance and the mount being capable of fighting close-range melee should anyone get too close.

Something like that I could envision a werewolf and his rider doing. I think it's how they'd prefer to travel long distances too: walking upright. Part of what would make a werewolf mount so valued would be its human elements, and in order to maintain those human elements, they couldn't subject the werewolf to anything dehumanizing (like being ridden like a horse) unnecessarily. The last thing they should want is for the werewolf to suddenly become accustomed to getting treated like an animal; they might forget all the things that make them human.

I believe that the word "dehumanizing" on this point can be blurred quite a bit, since previous relations between shapeshifter and mankind would play a big part on how shapeshifter mounts feel when they're subjected to "dehumanizing" tasks. Yes, I haven't put much thought into this, but upon reading this point, I pictured a group of mounts and riders playing games invented during times of war whenever they're bored, and both rider and mount enjoying it. Culture can also play a part in this, but I think that's for another topic someday.

On the subject of maintaining their humanity, it's recommended that both rider and mount interact with each other, on some occasions at the very least, and even if the mount is proven good enough to maintain his/her human side while shifted indefinitely. And not just conversing with each other too, mounts should try and at least write something, like journal entries, letters, etc, and/or read a book on campsites.

[Bloodyredbaron]

Another problem is finding someone who is A. small enough to comfortably ride a werewolf, and B. willing to ride a werewolf.

And if you're going to have a werewolf acting as a mount you might want to look into a non human riding him, something like a goblin or a gremlin, as they're usually portrayed as pretty small and so to avoid any unseemly "Masquerade Breaches".

[JoshuaMadoc]

Another problem is finding someone who is A. small enough to comfortably ride a werewolf, and B. willing to ride a werewolf.

And if you're going to have a werewolf acting as a mount you might want to look into a non human riding him, something like a goblin or a gremlin, as they're usually portrayed as pretty small and so to avoid any unseemly "Masquerade Breaches".

A) Like I said, depends on the capability and purpose of the mount, i.e. scout, spearheader, siege, etc. As for the rider... well, you got me good there.

B) If you're talking about humans, then human confidants accustomed to the sight of shapeshifters is a start.

And what is this "Masquerade Breaches" you speak of? Vampire: The Masquerade?

[Bloodyredbaron]

Another problem is finding someone who is A. small enough to comfortably ride a werewolf, and B. willing to ride a werewolf.

And if you're going to have a werewolf acting as a mount you might want to look into a non human riding him, something like a goblin or a gremlin, as they're usually portrayed as pretty small and so to avoid any unseemly "Masquerade Breaches".

A) Like I said, depends on the capability and purpose of the mount, i.e. scout, spearheader, siege, etc. As for the rider... well, you got me good there.

B) If you're talking about humans, then human confidants accustomed to the sight of shapeshifters is a start.

And what is this "Masquerade Breaches" you speak of? Vampire: The Masquerade?

Well, being familiar with werewolves and riding them is slightly different, you might want someone familiar with mounted combat, and honestly, few people today are. Unless we have a fantasy setting.

The Masquerade is a trope name that can apply to any self imposed supernatural cover up. Vampire: THe Masquerade is the trope namer.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Masquerade

[JoshuaMadoc]

Well, being familiar with werewolves and riding them is slightly different, you might want someone familiar with mounted combat, and honestly, few people today are. Unless we have a fantasy setting.

The keyword here is "today", which is not what I specifically brought up in terms of setting. My written lore stretches throughout all reaches of known history, so that includes older times when mounts played a significant role. Yes, I've not overlooked the notion that a rider's previous experience in mounted combat, whether human or shapeshifter, is highly advantageous in passing the criterias needed to make effective enough use of a shapeshifter mount.

As for the lack of modern riders... Well, you sort that out amongst yourselves with your own lores. Circumstances in mine has put a relatively minor dent on the use of shapeshifter mounts in modern times, since there are still plenty of people alive who were taught and are teaching the traditional mounted combat techniques away from human sight. Human riders, however, have decreased drastically after the humans severed nearly all ties from the shapeshifters.

[Terastas]

Well, being familiar with werewolves and riding them is slightly different, you might want someone familiar with mounted combat, and honestly, few people today are. Unless we have a fantasy setting.

The keyword here is "today", which is not what I specifically brought up in terms of setting. My written lore stretches throughout all reaches of known history, so that includes older times when mounts played a significant role. Yes, I've not overlooked the notion that a rider's previous experience in mounted combat, whether human or shapeshifter, is highly advantageous in passing the criterias needed to make effective enough use of a shapeshifter mount.

As for the lack of modern riders... Well, you sort that out amongst yourselves with your own lores. Circumstances in mine has put a relatively minor dent on the use of shapeshifter mounts in modern times, since there are still plenty of people alive who were taught and are teaching the traditional mounted combat techniques away from human sight. Human riders, however, have decreased drastically after the humans severed nearly all ties from the shapeshifters.

I'm reminded of our many discussions regarding combat training in gestalt form, and I think the same could apply to werewolf riding: it would depend greatly on the setting as to whether it would be possible or not. Werewolves of the present I would not expect to have time to engage in any kind of training like this, but in a setting where werewolves are either more isolated or better tolerated by society, the option could be possible.

The setting where I have the possibility for werewolves to act as mounts, for example, is in an alternative reality where werekin make up the population of a small country. They have all the modern day essentials so they wouldn't be excluded to mounted travel, but they still primarily use all the standard D&D weapons instead of guns because they can't afford to keep going out into dangerous territories looking for materials with which to make bullets. The same could be true of fuel, in which case cars and other such vehicles would be frowned upon and sentient mounts would be the most sought after alternative.

In that case, they would be able to train riders and mounts because they have the incentive to train for it, enough tolerance by society for them to pursue it, and the freedom to look for special individuals they could employ to try to make it happen. Werewolves in the standard Freeborn setting, on the other hand, would be too focused on just staying anonymous to even think about training, especially not for something they could never demonstrate openly anyway.

[vrikasatma]

Heh heh, this is funny

When I was in a Werewolf LARP, one of my packmates was a Silent Strider Ahroun who could sling a mean sword. I played a Get of Fenris Metis whose deformity was Gigantism.

During one battle, I took Hispo form which, with my deformity made me about as big as a Shire horse. My Strider packmate went to Crinos, jumped on my back and we charged into battle, screaming and snarling our wolfy hearts out We got the Roleplaying point for the game

[RedEye]

Somehow, although this makes good sense, I can't get the concept of Ewoks riding Wookees into battle out of my head.

There is something to consider here in the speed department: unless you do some major rewiring of the nerves; signals will travel along them at the same rate without regard to size. That gives the smaller and shorter a reaction time advantage over the bigger and taller that is just begging to be exploited.
Arm the rider with a distance weapon like a bow, and the "mount" with a close in weapon like a war-hammer or mace, and you have a pretty hard to defeat combination. If you aren't skewered with an arrow, you're mashed into paste with a warhammer's flat surface or get punctured like a beer can with the warhammer's spike.
Good call, Kitetsu!

[Silent Hunter]

The problem with that Redeye is that you have to stop, if briefly to fire and that gives attackers a window to fire back at you. Armor wont protect you from everything and all it takes one shot. I know they are werewolves but such blows could be of disruption to it, allowing more time for it to be finished off or just knocked out of the battle at a critical moment. On top of that factors like endurance and speed come into play. No way can a werewolf outrun a horse with a rider+mount. Horses can be hit from range, so could a werewolf.

There would have to be protection from ranged fire for this to work otherwise your werewolf will be full of arrows, crossbow bolts or musket holes. ;)

[Aki]

The problem with that Redeye is that you have to stop, if briefly to fire and that gives attackers a window to fire back at you. Armor wont protect you from everything and all it takes one shot. I know they are werewolves but such blows could be of disruption to it, allowing more time for it to be finished off or just knocked out of the battle at a critical moment. On top of that factors like endurance and speed come into play. No way can a werewolf outrun a horse with a rider+mount. Horses can be hit from range, so could a werewolf.

There would have to be protection from ranged fire for this to work otherwise your werewolf will be full of arrows, crossbow bolts or musket holes. ;)

Given that the mount in this case is fully sentient, I'd say it would work a lot better than the typical rider+horse combo, since the werewolf-mount knows how to take cover, dodge, watch out for threats, etc while a horse mostly relies on it's rider's guidance in a fight.

Also you don't need to stop to fire. Just ask the Mongols - they sure as hell didn't.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Also you don't need to stop to fire. Just ask the Mongols - they sure as hell didn't.

JUST when I was hesitating to bring that up. Here's the awesome reality of it at play for good measure.

[Terastas]

Also you don't need to stop to fire. Just ask the Mongols - they sure as hell didn't.

JUST when I was hesitating to bring that up. Here's the awesome reality of it at play for good measure.

Legolas, eat your heart out.

The only thing I could think of that would set an archer off would be a quick jerk in motion like a quick turn or a sudden stop. Those, however, could probably be corrected with simple verbal commands / warnings, and considering the rate at which those guys could reload and fire, I don't think that would set them off for very long.

I could only think of three possible ways to improve that method from a medieval (IE: no bullets or gunpowder) standpoint. One would be to design a crossbow that could load and fire multiple bolts (like the one used in this clip at 3:34, and yes, I know that particular version only holds four bolts at a time and is probably a b**** to reload, but still, you get the idea).

The second would be to keep the bow just as simple as it was in the clip Kitesu linked to but include grips, thumb guides and a few other simple hand-eye coordination tricks.

The final would be to keep the bow simple again but to provide the archer with a better quiver; one right at the archer's wrist instead of over his back, so he can have easy access to them like the guy in the video without having to grip them altogether along with his bow in one hand.

But yeah, the key factor here would always be the training. 2 The Ranting Griffin once said that you could kill somebody by zinging a rice ball at his head if you tried hard enough, and taking into account some of the things Bruce Lee was allegedly capable of doing, I'm inclined to believe it.

[RedEye]

The problem with that Redeye is that you have to stop, if briefly to fire and that gives attackers a window to fire back at you. Armor wont protect you from everything and all it takes one shot. I know they are werewolves but such blows could be of disruption to it, allowing more time for it to be finished off or just knocked out of the battle at a critical moment. On top of that factors like endurance and speed come into play. No way can a werewolf outrun a horse with a rider+mount. Horses can be hit from range, so could a werewolf.

There would have to be protection from ranged fire for this to work otherwise your werewolf will be full of arrows, crossbow bolts or musket holes. ;)

I disagree. The Japanese make a habit of archery while on a fast galloping horse. Even I have used a horse-bow and scored respectably in mounted moving archery contests...although that was quite a few years ago. I chose the bow as the ranged weapon based on my own experience, and the warhammer is also employable while on the move.
The darling of the weapons people, the sword, actually isn't that much of a movement weapon. Even the samurai have to plant their feet to swing a blade and then move on. While it looks fast, you still have to stop and plant to get up some respectable striking speed since the sword needs to cut to be effective, while the warhammer doesn't. The sword has to be "aimed" while the hammer just has to encounter something to work.

[JoshuaMadoc]

I could only think of three possible ways to improve that method from a medieval (IE: no bullets or gunpowder) standpoint. One would be to design a crossbow that could load and fire multiple bolts (like the one used in this clip at 3:34, and yes, I know that particular version only holds four bolts at a time and is probably a b**** to reload, but still, you get the idea).

Repeating crossbows.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0R9u2gjbw1w Western variant, possibly made way after the chinese variant, it's made according to instructions published in the 1950s and is on the internet somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=de5344na1zw Chinese variant, note that it can be held still so you can aim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYgbKi4SX5M The later half of this video demonstrates its rapid-firing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Izsndw2IFRQ This is a modified version of the chinese variant, the traditional lever-trigger is modified into a pump-action trigger.

[Moonraiser]

I'll tell you one thing...

If I was ever a werewolf and someone tried to put a saddle on me and ride me like a horse, they wouldn't like me afterward...