Werewlves, science, magic & Secret Scieties

[ANTIcarrot.]

Two questions:

1) It follows that if werewolves are impossible in our world, then in any world where they are possible there must be some fundamental differences in the way the universe and/or animal-life is put together. Since science is the study of the natural world, should scientists have noticed the mechanisms in physics and/or biology that make werewolves possible?

2) Secret societies are both rare and rarely secret. Organisations like the IRA, the Freemasons, the White House and the online were community can all be considered forms of secret society. The first three have secrets and all keep their inner workings out of public view, but everyone knows they exist. Only the last is even halfway 'secret' in that most people haven't heard of it; and even then anyone can go to google and find us if they choose.

One thing I hated about Blade was the way the vampire secret society secretly ruled human society and remains completely hidden even though it does the terrible things. (Yes I know it's a metaphor for Big Business but still...) I didn’t like the complete media blackout in World of Darkness either. It seems inconceivable that werewolves cold have existed for hundreds of years in the scientifically curious and media obsessed western world and no one has even the slightest shred of proof of their existence. So in the event that werewolves (and or werewolf society) exist, should humans society know about them?

In summary:
1) Should scientists have noticed the mechanisms in physics and/or biology that make werewolves possible?
2) Should humans society know about werewolves and/or werewolf society?

ANTIcarrot.

[Figarou]

:shock:



X 50,000

[ABrownrigg]

Hmm, good question.. certainly something to think about.

Anthony Brownrigg

[Xodiac]

You raise a good point, and it's something I've had a problem with recently as well. Only in my case, I was upset at certain books, not movies, namely the "It's the real world but magic exists in a secret but expansive underground community." Harry Potter would be a good example, but most of the magic there takes place in some kind of alternate world (Hogwarts is not a magical school disguised as a regular academy, it is simply Somewhere Else).

You raise interesting questions... but addressing them would probably require yet another major change to the script. Most movies and such just ignore the question and hope their watchers will also, and by and large they do.

[Figarou]

Hmmmmm......I can't think of how to answer those questions. I was a highly confused because I know magic is not going to be in the film. As for scientists, I found out through my idea of a company/lab making an injection to make a person shift faster from a werewolf bite was an odd idea. As for secret socities and the government, I don't think this story line is going that far to involve them.

I want this film to be unique. No ideas taken from other films. No magic from Harry Potter. No secret societies from Blade.

Since the script is get an "OVERHOWL, " one may never know.

[Terastas]

I know we had a topic about the second one. You're right; secret societies are rarely secret. In fact, if you've ever watched the Sci-Fi channel, you've probably seen a show about "specialists" that are out hunting legends of the supernatural. There are likely such experts tracking and documenting werewolves as well. Of course, nowadays we're used to hearing people claiming to have seen UFOs or Elvis, so even if some of those sightings are credible, they ultimately end up getting sorted in with the BS claims by most of the general public.

So yes, there would be plenty of human beings out there that know about them. There would just be so many more that refuse to believe in them.

As for the medical issue... I'm going to apply the conspiracy theory to this one.

Half the interest in UFO encounters, for example, is actually moreso on the possibility of a government cover-up. It can't be proven, but it might be an interesting element of the plot if the government knew about werewolves but was trying to cover up their existence, either for the sake of a hyperparanoid public or for an agency's personal agenda. At any rate, by that theory, if a werewolf was checked into a hospital, one of the doctors would likely note some abnormalities in his condition, though likely wouldn't have nearly enough information to hypothesize the existence of a lycanthrope. Before he reaches any conclusive evidence, the government agency trying to cover up their existence could pay a visit to the hospital and *ahem* "recommend the patient be transferred to a facility capable of treating his unique condition."

Back on secret societies... Some werewolves would definitely want to congregate in order to safeguard their existence, but I seriously doubt they'd opperate on the kind of level the vampires in Blade do. They'd probably just have small meetings in the basement of a Banana Republic or something like that to make sure everyone is alive and such.

[Figarou]

Back on secret societies... Some werewolves would definitely want to congregate in order to safeguard their existence, but I seriously doubt they'd opperate on the kind of level the vampires in Blade do. They'd probably just have small meetings in the basement of a Banana Republic or something like that to make sure everyone is alive and such.

yup yup. Just look for that little duckie in the window.

[ChaosWolf]

Back on secret societies... Some werewolves would definitely want to congregate in order to safeguard their existence, but I seriously doubt they'd opperate on the kind of level the vampires in Blade do. They'd probably just have small meetings in the basement of a Banana Republic or something like that to make sure everyone is alive and such.

yup yup. Just look for that little duckie in the window.

THAT's what we can use for an in-joke!

[Figarou]

Back on secret societies... Some werewolves would definitely want to congregate in order to safeguard their existence, but I seriously doubt they'd opperate on the kind of level the vampires in Blade do. They'd probably just have small meetings in the basement of a Banana Republic or something like that to make sure everyone is alive and such.

yup yup. Just look for that little duckie in the window.

THAT's what we can use for an in-joke!

And THAT was an idea from Terastas. Thought I'd bring it back out.

[Silverfang]

Back on secret societies... Some werewolves would definitely want to congregate in order to safeguard their existence, but I seriously doubt they'd opperate on the kind of level the vampires in Blade do. They'd probably just have small meetings in the basement of a Banana Republic or something like that to make sure everyone is alive and such.

yup yup. Just look for that little duckie in the window.

Nice, will have to keep a look out

[ShadowFang]

That is to say that the government doesen't already know about werewolves and are keeping them alive on a remote island somewhere that does not show up on any maps. Keep in mind, Area 51 didn't show up on maps before all this UFO talk started to pressure them.

What would the government want with werewolves? Who knows? Super soldiers? But then you're starting to walk on "Dog Soliders" territory.

It's an interesting idea, to say the least.

[Krissy]

It is interesting to think about.
And they say -- with magic, anything is possible.

But, nonetheless, look how many people believe in God, and how everyone in the world is aware that these billions share the same concept that there is a higher being who created us and loves us, and that they love Him? And there's no true scientific evidence on the existence of God, and yet so many have faith in His existence, without question (as I do).

So it's not like there isn't a possibility. There's just no proof. More likely -- like God (but beneath Him, I should say because of my beliefs) -- werewolves could exist on a spiritual level (such as our modern-day wolf therians, also called werewolves).
And also -- We must never forget that they could exist (or did exist at one point or another)....or that it truly is a skill that deeply-rooted spiritual particpants have learned to master through incantations and magic (some theories behind the demonic capabilities of witches).

Anywho -- just some quick thoughts. Sorry in advance if anyone is offended by anything.

[ANTIcarrot.]

Okay, I'll rewrite the first question a little. Anyone who knows anything about the laws of physis and biology knows that anything like a classical werewolf is pretty much impossible. In a world where werewolves did exist though, the laws of physics and biology would allow werewolves to exist - even if as a theoretical possiblity. Kind of like alien life existing around other stars.

NB: This isn't so much a 'The script must be changed!' thing so much as 'What does everyone else think?' question. I've got a minor debating habit you see.


ANTIcarrot.

[Figarou]

That is to say that the government doesen't already know about werewolves and are keeping them alive on a remote island somewhere that does not show up on any maps. Keep in mind, Area 51 didn't show up on maps before all this UFO talk started to pressure them.

What would the government want with werewolves? Who knows? Super soldiers? But then you're starting to walk on "Dog Soliders" territory.

It's an interesting idea, to say the least.

I hope it doesn't come to this. I remember what happened when the movie Jurassic Park 1st came out. Those papers you see at the check out stands said those dinosaurs were real and that they had them living on a secret island. Hogwash!! What people do to put strange thoughts into other peoples minds.

Okay, I'll rewrite the first question a little. Anyone who knows anything about the laws of physis and biology knows that anything like a classical werewolf is pretty much impossible. In a world where werewolves did exist though, the laws of physics and biology would allow werewolves to exist - even if as a theoretical possiblity. Kind of like alien life existing around other stars.

NB: This isn't so much a 'The script must be changed!' thing so much as 'What does everyone else think?' question. I've got a minor debating habit you see.


ANTIcarrot.

wolves don't debate. Add that to the "Humans do, wolves don't" list.

[Terastas]

What would the government want with werewolves? Who knows? Super soldiers? But then you're starting to walk on "Dog Soliders" territory.

I could see the different agencies debating over their potential, but I think for the most part the government would just want to keep their existence under wraps to keep the public from overreacting the same way they would if the UFOs became exposed.

yup yup. Just look for that little duckie in the window.

Actually, my original idea was a Homer Simpson doll, but hey, a rubber duck brings the two inside jokes together.

[Vuldari]

I like the way ANTIcarrot thinks.

All of these things (especially the whole "secret society" deal), have bothered me in the past. The, "if it were possible in that world, the laws of physics must be different", idea I have thought about before. However, trying to comprehend a whole new set of rules for reality, and then trying to hypothosise on all of the ways that would have altered the course of world history, the study of natural science and such...
*stares blankly into space for a moment*...it gives me a terrible headache.

That is far too much for my cross-wired brain to calculate.

In that scenario, Yeah...someone would know. But like so many scientific theorys that currently exist which support the possibility of time travel and such, looking at reasearch on biology and realising that it was "theoretically" possible for a human being to spontaniously and rapidly change form, does not mean anyone would have been able to proove it, or do anything with that knowlage.

Really...If a scientist released a research report that suggested the possible existance of "human shapeshifters", would any other self-respecting scientist take it seriously?

...OW. My brain hurts.

Edit: As for the WereWolves themselves being exposed and known...
It seems to be assumed in this scenario that the general public do NOT know about REAL werewolves. ...or they refuse to believe it. Mentioning UFOs, Bigfoot and other paranormal activity is a great example about how they could go so long as an "unknown". Simply put, some people WOULD know, but they would be so few, (thanks to mostly succesful efforts of the wolves to remain inconspicuous), that they could be written off as superstition, or someones stress-born hallucination.

Those who know, either would be ignored if they talk, or they might choose to keep it to themselves.

*peering out the corner of a window, chanting to himself* "...I'm okay. They don't know that I know...they don't know that I know...they don't know that I know...they don't know----AAAAaaaahhh. He saw Me!!!! ...I'ts okay. He doesn't know that I know..."

[Figarou]

*peering out the corner of a window, chanting to himself* "...I'm okay. They don't know that I know...they don't know that I know...they don't know that I know...they don't know----AAAAaaaahhh. He saw Me!!!! ...I'ts okay. He doesn't know that I know..."

You know what? I know that you know, you know?

[Terastas]

I like the way ANTIcarrot thinks.

All of these things (especially the whole "secret society" deal), have bothered me in the past. The, "if it were possible in that world, the laws of physics must be different", idea I have thought about before. However, trying to comprehend a whole new set of rules for reality, and then trying to hypothosise on all of the ways that would have altered the course of world history, the study of natural science and such...
*stares blankly into space for a moment*...it gives me a terrible headache.

That is far too much for my cross-wired brain to calculate.

In that scenario, Yeah...someone would know. But like so many scientific theorys that currently exist which support the possibility of time travel and such, looking at reasearch on biology and realising that it was "theoretically" possible for a human being to spontaniously and rapidly change form, does not mean anyone would have been able to proove it, or do anything with that knowlage.

Really...If a scientist released a research report that suggested the possible existance of "human shapeshifters", would any other self-respecting scientist take it seriously?

...OW. My brain hurts. "

Albert Einstein once said: "A thousand experiments could not prove me right. One experiment could prove me wrong." The fact is that all laws of nature (especially those regarding biology) are not fullproof. In fact, the most influential experiments and discoveries were those that redefined the man-made laws of the universe completely.

Were someone to study a werewolf, or even better, isolate the lycanthropic bactirium, that would put his name in the history books.

Edit: As for the WereWolves themselves being exposed and known...
It seems to be assumed in this scenario that the general public do NOT know about REAL werewolves. ...or they refuse to believe it. Mentioning UFOs, Bigfoot and other paranormal activity is a great example about how they could go so long as an "unknown". Simply put, some people WOULD know, but they would be so few, (thanks to mostly succesful efforts of the wolves to remain inconspicuous), that they could be written off as superstition, or someones stress-born hallucination.

Those who know, either would be ignored if they talk, or they might choose to keep it to themselves.

Bingo! If you watch the Sci-Fi channel after 8 p.m., you're inevitably going to see one of those shows like "Proof: Positive" or "Beyond Belief: Fact or Fiction." UFO, ghost, wampus cat and werewolf sightings are all over the place. Some of them might be authentic, but for every one successful UFO documentary, you've got, like, fifty people that are videotaping crop dusters or weather balloons. The same could also be true of werewolves.

And of course, just because someone knows about werewolves doesn't mean they would want to talk about them. It's been mentioned in multiple threads that, on top of their pack members, a werewolf could also have some human counterparts to look out for him. That's where the rubber duck joke came from; we thought a network of werewolf sympathants could use their living spaces as werewolf safehouses and put a rubber duck on the window cill to indicate such.

[Figarou]

Were someone to study a werewolf, or even better, isolate the lycanthropic bactirium, that would put his name in the history books.

Don't forget winning the nobel prize.

[ANTIcarrot.]

One minor consiquence is that the werewolf might have a pretty good idea of what it actually is and how its strengths and weaknesses work. True there'd be a lot of lore and myth anyway, but they might be ableto sort the wheat from the chaff much more easily after a quick search of the local library/internet.

Of course as to what usemor value that information might have...

ANTIcarrot.

[JoeDarkfall]

What if it were the Werewolves that started all they myths about themselves. You know, the whole Silver Bullet thing.

You see it on the news that a Werewolf is terrorizing your town. Everyone runs out and starts buying up silver bullets. Then there's an encounter. People unload the silver bullets into the Werewolf. Only he or she just laughs and keeps barreling at you.

Turns out the Silver Bullets have nothing to do with a Werewolf's demise. The only one thing in the world that really does a Werewolf in.....Peanut Butter stuck to the roof of their mouths.

[Vuldari]

Turns out the Silver Bullets have nothing to do with a Werewolf's demise. The only one thing in the world that really does a Werewolf in.....Peanut Butter stuck to the roof of their mouths.

Ha!

You know what? I know that you know, you know?

OH NO!...

*runs and locks self in closet, armed with a jar of "extra gooey" peanut butter*

[Scott Gardener]

Getting back to the original points, which were quite excellent:

1. Physics loophole that scientists should notice:

One option is that they are possible in this reality or a world that follows the same physics we currently believe apply to this one. In this scenario, the scientists haven't figured it out for the same reasons we haven't--because most people wrongly take it for granted that it's not possible, except for weirdo deviants like us and our stories about viruses and such.

Another is that the story is set in a world with different physics. Either the scientists have been duped into believing the wrong set of rules (such as in The Matrix, or the muggles in the Harry Potter series), or they know the rules but still haven't made the connection. It's amazing how many things are being discovered today that are in retrospect painfully obvious, like carbohydrates worsening diabetes. (The body breaks carbs down into glucose, and yet until this "low carb" craze came about in the late nineties, we were recommending tons of bread and pasta to diabetics.)

The third option is that they do know. Examples would be timelines in which "Men In Black" show up, confiscating evidence. Project Blue Moon is what it's called in my own storyline--the effort to track down a potential epidemic that could alter the very face of humanity.

2. Secret societies:

What can I say? If there were enough werewolves to be organized into a society in a timeline like this one, they'd have to be motivated very vigilantly to keep it a secret, otherwise we'd have heard more about them by now. There are plenty of reasons, though survival is the most popular, being so obvious.

[Figarou]

Turns out the Silver Bullets have nothing to do with a Werewolf's demise. The only one thing in the world that really does a Werewolf in.....Peanut Butter stuck to the roof of their mouths.

Yup yup!! Werewolf hunters armed with plastic jars of creamy peanut butter. They lure them out with a squeeze from a rubber duckie. *quack* The werewolf's ears purks up. "Is that our secret society code?" He goes to investigate. The hunter sees the werewolf!! OH NO!! He tosses the peanut butter jar at him and it explodes sending creamy peanut butter all over the werewolf's face! Oh!! The horror!!

The werewolf starts to lick the peanut butter off the face.

Then the werewolf is because of the yummy taste.

He keeps on licking until death becomes of him!!

You know what? I know that you know, you know?

OH NO!...

*runs and locks self in closet, armed with a jar of "extra gooey" peanut butter*

Well, that "extra gooey" peanut butter won't do you any good now. Werewolves has found a cure!!!

GOT MILK?

[Apokryltaros]

Turns out the Silver Bullets have nothing to do with a Werewolf's demise. The only one thing in the world that really does a Werewolf in.....Peanut Butter stuck to the roof of their mouths.

Yup yup!! Werewolf hunters armed with plastic jars of creamy peanut butter. They lure them out with a squeeze from a rubber duckie. *quack* The werewolf's ears purks up. "Is that our secret society code?" He goes to investigate. The hunter sees the werewolf!! OH NO!! He tosses the peanut butter jar at him and it explodes sending creamy peanut butter all over the werewolf's face! Oh!! The horror!!

The werewolf starts to lick the peanut butter off the face.

Then the werewolf is because of the yummy taste.

He keeps on licking until death becomes of him!!

You know what? I know that you know, you know?

OH NO!...

*runs and locks self in closet, armed with a jar of "extra gooey" peanut butter*

Well, that "extra gooey" peanut butter won't do you any good now. Werewolves has found a cure!!!

GOT MILK?

What about the lactose intolerance?