Origins

[Vilkacis]

Four pages and neither the moderators nor Silverclaw have corrected the spelling of the topic yet.

It should read "Origins" ...not "Orgins".

It looks like this is a topic about disembowelment, by the title..

I saw it, but I didn't think it right of me to just go in and fix people's spelling for them...

-- Vilkacis

[Renorei]

Here, have a chewed up duckie.

My favorite! Thanks!

[Figarou]

Here, have a chewed up duckie.

My favorite! Thanks!

*spits duckie into Excelsia's paws*


There you go!!

[bloodwolf_345]

For anyone who has studied Greek Mythology, this should be an easy one to answer. Zeus cursed the king Lycaon so that he would turn into a wolf every full moon, that is where the full moon thing comes from as well.

[Vilkacis]

For anyone who has studied Greek Mythology, this should be an easy one to answer. Zeus cursed the king Lycaon so that he would turn into a wolf every full moon, that is where the full moon thing comes from as well.

I can't seem to find any sources to link King Lycaon and the full moon... Could you point me somewhere?

Every version of the story that I've been able to dig up so far simply says that Zeus turned him into a wolf.

-- Vilkacis

[Apokryltaros]

For anyone who has studied Greek Mythology, this should be an easy one to answer. Zeus cursed the king Lycaon so that he would turn into a wolf every full moon, that is where the full moon thing comes from as well.

I can't seem to find any sources to link King Lycaon and the full moon... Could you point me somewhere?

Every version of the story that I've been able to dig up so far simply says that Zeus turned him into a wolf.

-- Vilkacis

Forever, even.

[Kavik]

I can't seem to find any sources to link King Lycaon and the full moon... Could you point me somewhere?

Every version of the story that I've been able to dig up so far simply says that Zeus turned him into a wolf.

-- Vilkacis

Here's a really good site on King Lycaon. No mention of the Moon, full or otherwise though.
http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/Lycaon2.html

[Fenrir]

So would that make them(werewolve) believers in the Greek myths, wait that myth isn't right, the guy fed his son to the Olympians and Demeter at a piece of his shoulder accidently, but the guy was turned into a wolf.

[Apokryltaros]

So would that make them(werewolve) believers in the Greek myths, wait that myth isn't right, the guy fed his son to the Olympians and Demeter at a piece of his shoulder accidently, but the guy was turned into a wolf.

That was Tantalus, and he was punished by being cast into Tartarus, and was placed in a lake, beneath a tree laden with fruit, and was tormented by water that escaped his lips, and fruit that was always beyond his reach.

[greniar]

its simple, things evolve to fit into their enviroment, well maybe a tribe of people(there could be many other tribes like this ) that lived in the woods. to survive(lets say that they are in a really cold place) they evolved into wolf-men/wolf-women so that they would gain the wolf's hunting and survival skills along with its fur coat for warmth yet retained their human ingenuity(if that's how you spell it). after a certain point ether they migrated toward civilization or civilization expanded toward them, they were being killed because they appiered differently than normal humans(you can even go into the therianthropic pictures on cave walls by saying that the caves were the safe-houses from werewolves, and the paintings were warning signs) so another evolution took place, allowing the tribe to change from the wolf-person appearance to a human appearance at will. after a while after an indefinet amount of time the newer werewolves'(sons and daughters of the tribe) transformaations were bound to the moon (their bodies being made up of mostly water, and the moon controling the tides). eventually everyone was in some,even distant, way related to a werewolf and they became common. the inquisitioners began to kill off the werewolves, not knowing they aren't the spawn of satan, so the genetic trait became resessive and only a few people could still transform. sense most people in the world are at least very distantly related to the tribe they all have the resessive "wolf" gene in their genetic makeup if a person is bitten by a werewolf the saliva enters their bloodstream it mixes with the resessive gene and causes the trait to be reawakened in the person

[greniar]

For anyone who has studied Greek Mythology, this should be an easy one to answer. Zeus cursed the king Lycaon so that he would turn into a wolf every full moon, that is where the full moon thing comes from as well.

I can't seem to find any sources to link King Lycaon and the full moon... Could you point me somewhere?

Every version of the story that I've been able to dig up so far simply says that Zeus turned him into a wolf.

-- Vilkacis

there is an alternate version that envolves zeus after the wolf transformation."Lycaon had many sons and daughters. all of his daughters died during a harsh winther so he renounced zeus. he took up animals as his gods and was given the ability to become a wolf. to become human again while in the form of a wolf he would refrain from eating human flesh for a certain period of time(i forget how long) is sons, all except one, also became wolves with him. one day zeus decided he wouldn't let it fly anymore and payed a visit to lycaon and his sons killing all of them except the one one who never became a wolf and made him king,he was then given the ability to shapeshift at will.

[Kavik]

there is an alternate version that envolves zeus after the wolf transformation."Lycaon had many sons and daughters. all of his daughters died during a harsh winther so he renounced zeus. he took up animals as his gods and was given the ability to become a wolf. to become human again while in the form of a wolf he would refrain from eating human flesh for a certain period of time(i forget how long) is sons, all except one, also became wolves with him. one day zeus decided he wouldn't let it fly anymore and payed a visit to lycaon and his sons killing all of them except the one one who never became a wolf and made him king,he was then given the ability to shapeshift at will.

Interesting. Do you have a source for this version? I'm doing a pseudo-scholarly piece on lycanthropy, and such a variant would allow me to link Lycaon's shapeshifting with another origin, if I can back up your claim.

[greniar]

there is an alternate version that envolves zeus after the wolf transformation."Lycaon had many sons and daughters. all of his daughters died during a harsh winther so he renounced zeus. he took up animals as his gods and was given the ability to become a wolf. to become human again while in the form of a wolf he would refrain from eating human flesh for a certain period of time(i forget how long) is sons, all except one, also became wolves with him. one day zeus decided he wouldn't let it fly anymore and payed a visit to lycaon and his sons killing all of them except the one one who never became a wolf and made him king,he was then given the ability to shapeshift at will.

Interesting. Do you have a source for this version? I'm doing a pseudo-scholarly piece on lycanthropy, and such a variant would allow me to link Lycaon's shapeshifting with another origin, if I can back up your claim.

it is in a book i have , i think it is callid the dictionary of greek mythology,or something like that. for an exact title you will have to wait a while

[celtwolf]

ok so i'm not entirely sure if we're going with the 'viral' theory or the 'curse' theory, so i'll say what i can on what i know.

first off, the 'virus' origin idea is highly improbable. you see, viruses are nonliving organisms that basically alter DNA. if all you pay attention to is the part about the altered DNA, then you could say that this theory is feasable, but that's not all there is to a virus. think about it, if all viruses did was alter DNA to some random concoction, how would more virii be made? thing is, most viruses (i say most becuse i don't know EVEYTHING about viruses......yet) alter the DNA of a cell so that, instead of producing more cell matter, the cell produces more viruses, which then destroy the cell and spread to other cells (that's why computer viruses are called viruses, a viral file makes the computer copy it and send it to other computers). so, say a virus mutated so that it altered a humans DNA to that of a wolves, a possible idea. well, that wouldn't autimatically change a human into a wolf, the cells would have to move and shift with the body for that to happen. i think it would take years for any real obvious shift to occur. and even then it would probably be years of excruciating pain. NOT fun. and viruses don't react to the will of the host, so shifts couldn't be willed to occur. so the general idea that we've concocted for the werewolves in the movie pretty much prevents the possibility of the virus origin.

and the one thing i DON'T know about as far as the curse goes is the origin. sorry i can't shed light on it.

oh well, i hope i've helped a bit.

~Celtwolf

[Lupin]

Yes. We all know it's not a true virus since it's entirely too complex for a simple virus to do this. Mostly we use the word as a matter of convinence.

[vrikasatma]

I liked how they suggested in "The Howling" that the werewolves were mutants. "Nightbreed" touches on this too: they were shapeshifters, "Freaks" by their own admission.

I'm tending to favour the "mutagen" theory best. It's plausible: we've messed with this planet enough that lycanthropy-as-an-evolutionary-step would wash.

[celtwolf]

so it's more of a contagen sort of thing huh? something transferred through bite or blood. i guess using that as a theory might work. though, i can't think of any bacteria or anything else that might fit the profile.
and the "mutate" idea is good, but needs some more work than just saying that. remember, the current story is that werewolves have existed for a long time. a REALLY long time. so the idea of a lab experriment or radiation mutating the body of someone is a bit to recent of a possability.

i think a good origin idea is that werewolves sort of evolved alongside humans and have a gene that allows them to shift forms between that of a man and that of a wolf. the gene theory is possible, as there are animals in existance that change forms, albeit probably not at will (ex: caterpillar/butterfly, maggot/fly, and here's an interesting one grasshopper/locust). and it could be feasable that the gene could be transferred to others. we're actually experimenting on gene therapy right now, so isn't it possible that nature could have evolved a working system on it's own? and it could be mistaken for a virus as it actually DOES change DNA by adding to it!
heh, i think i just came up with something good here that fits pretty well!
so here's the rundown, once more:
~Were-gene theory~
1) werewolves evolved alongside man
2) werewolves evolved a transferrable gene than can be moved from person to person through saliva or blood
3) this gene carries informatin that allows a human to change into a wolf and information to enhance associated traits

thanks to Lupin and vrikasatama for the inspiration!
~Celtwolf

[vrikasatma]

That's a good idea, my thought was more like a survival adaptation, brought about by an environmental condition.

There's a theory circulating (originally from Terence McKenna) that human intelligence rose as a quantum leap when the proto-hominid brain was exposed to psychotropics, specifically belladonna and psilocybin. Synapses got connected, the brain mutated, the mutation carried, there's a human that can make the quantum leap from instinct to intellect.

Say for example, one human one day began to meditate on the plight of Canis lupus. He said to himself, "We're wiping the wolves out. They're too precious to lose." Somehow a psychosomatic effect opened up a pathway to a new structure in the brain that controlled the muscles' flexure, allowing a limited form of shapeshifting. The brain can be reprogrammed and the more you use it, the more synapses get connected. Eventually, a "shift to wolf" sequence gets connected and away we go With dedicated practice, perhaps later down the descendant line, another mutation develops that reverses the process while allowing the

Before anyone starts with the "there's no scientific evidence of p-shifting," let me reiterate that this is a hypothetical theory and I didn't say the McKenna theory had any plausibility to it, either.

[celtwolf]

hmmm, interesting. adding a reason for the evolution to occur might be good, but then again, there are plenty of successful evolutions that probably had nothing to do with the needs-to-be-met theory of evolution. i mean, look at the platypus!

and whilst the McKenna theory might work, i think finding a more logical origin to use in the movie, just for story reasons.

[Lupin]

so it's more of a contagen sort of thing huh? something transferred through bite or blood. i guess using that as a theory might work. though, i can't think of any bacteria or anything else that might fit the profile.
and the "mutate" idea is good, but needs some more work than just saying that. remember, the current story is that werewolves have existed for a long time. a REALLY long time. so the idea of a lab experriment or radiation mutating the body of someone is a bit to recent of a possability.

Yeah, it's some sort of agent which is like a virus but not. I figure it acts on the body once (the cause of all those weird post bite-symptoms) then it just kinda hangs around, waiting for the host to bite someone so that it can spread.

[celtwolf]

well, the were-gene theory supports that. you see, the transferrable gene behaves similarly to a virus as it enters cells and changes DNA, but it doesn't erase any of it, it ADDS to the DNA. and the immediate -post-bite symptoms could be the transferrance of the gene through the body and the body getting used to it's new genetics.

oh, and thanks for the emote!

[Kavik]

well, the were-gene theory supports that. you see, the transferrable gene behaves similarly to a virus as it enters cells and changes DNA, but it doesn't erase any of it, it ADDS to the DNA. and the immediate -post-bite symptoms could be the transferrance of the gene through the body and the body getting used to it's new genetics.

oh, and thanks for the emote!

My own pet theory involves inherited genetics as well as a retrovirus of extraterrestrial origin. The virus (and again, virus is not exactly correct) replicates the genetic code of its host when transferred, but only those victims with theriomorphic DNA will ever gain a semblance of control over their shapeshifting. And of course anyone with two werewolves for parents is likely gonna be a natural werewolf too.

It was said in the movie WOLF that you must have some of the wolf in you already for the bite to be useful. Pity then the normal human that suffers the virus. A malevolent mutation would occur resulting in the man-beast seen in many movies. If the virus runs its full course, the victim dies from an infection similar in effect to rabies.

[celtwolf]

i don't know. the idea of the alien contagen just doesn't appeal to me. i kinda like the idea of natures gene therapy.

[vrikasatma]

Yeah, sorry..."Space Wolves?" Nah.

Contrived enough that there's a meme circulating that cetaceans are from another planet.

[Akela]

What do you mean no Space Wolves? Look, here's a trooper now