Muscles

[Ultraken]

W00t!

I'd been reading for a while, but finally decided to register.

(I still remember alt.horror.werewolves being newgrouped back when I was in college, and it was fun for a while until the "lifestylers" started making "normal" people like me progressively welcome. When I looked in again after quitting Usenet for a year or so, I barely recognized it. This board is everything that I wished a.h.ww had become instead of what it actually became.)

[Renorei]

I really hope that is not real...

...that's just...


Are you TRYING to give me nightmares?!


This is how I see it. Everyone agrees that this picture is disgusting, right?

...well, I feel that ALL "bulging" muscles are gross looking...when they are smaller than this, they are just "less" disgusting than this...but still disgusting none-the-less, and not cool or attractive. If the overall body does not look overall smooth, balanced and focused, then all variations, (or exagerations) beyond that look "wrong" to varying degrees.

But that's just me, of course.


Tell me...was BRUCE LEE a wimp?

Look at these pics and you tell me.


THAT is the body of a man who has trained himself Right. That is a finely tuned, focused and powerful body...but he stopped pumping up his muscles just before he began to look "bulgy", or what many people so fondly call "Ripped".

This level and balance of musculature is what I consider a frigtenlingly powerful "I could rip your arms off without even trying" body...while it is not unattractively bulgy.

All of those "Mr. Universe" (Young Arnold) type bodybuilders are training their body's the Wrong way. Those types of people don't win many strength or agility competitions.

The strongest men in the world either look like this, or are built, (quite literally) like BEARS, with very stout, round, middle heavy bodies.

...but "govenator" types...they are just vain fools. Sure...they are stonger than you or me, but focusing on SIZE rather than functional capacity is NOT the picture of "Ideal" physical condition.

I think that if the average Couch Potato Joe gained THIS level of musculature in Gestalt Werewolf form, that would be the UPPER level of reasonable muscle definition enhancement.

...of course, if the person looked like Arnold to begin with, then HELL YEAH he would be "Ripped" as a werewolf.

While I agree with you wholeheartedly that the physique of uber-muscly guy up there is a little much...the physique of Bruce Lee just isn't enough.

Sure...he's not a wimp. But, he looks like one. Werewolves (IMO) should look impressive and intimidating. This doesn't mean that they should have so many muscles as to restrict movement. But, they should still have visible and impressive musculature. It will look good from a cinematic perspective, and will likely appeal to a wider audience.

[Shadow Wulf]

Total Photoshop. I've seen websites full of that stuff.

(There are some big guys, true, but that image is pure photomanipulation. The file name is kind of a giveaway...)

I figured as much.

And

Oh thank god!! I thought the guy took an overdose of some kind of steroids that only affects part of the body.

[Vuldari]

While I agree with you wholeheartedly that the physique of uber-muscly guy up there is a little much...the physique of Bruce Lee just isn't enough.

Sure...he's not a wimp. But, he looks like one. Werewolves (IMO) should look impressive and intimidating. This doesn't mean that they should have so many muscles as to restrict movement. But, they should still have visible and impressive musculature. It will look good from a cinematic perspective, and will likely appeal to a wider audience.

You're totally missing the point. What you have been brainwashed to believe is "better" and the Most impressive is NOT.

"You must Unlearn what you have learned."
~Yoda

The images I provided of the late, great Mr. Lee are great examples of what a human body looks like in PRIME physical condition. That is what it looks like to be Superhuman. Bulgy muscles are very unhealthy. Wolves are the same way. They are not huge and bulgy. They are lean and focused, and very strong.

Truth be told, a werewolf with the type of physical condition and build as Bruce here would have a distinct physical ADVANTAGE over a "Govenator" werewolf. (In a one on one, free for all fight)

...do you understand?...


The perception of the world at large about what a "Better" conditioned body is supposed to look like is WRONG.


Bruce Wolf would kick Arnold Wolf's A**...


The only thing Beefy types are better at is lifting, pulling, pushing and throwing stuff.
(Bench pressing, arm wrestling, log throwing, Etc.)



...although my claims are hard to proove, since this distorted perception is almost universal, and has infected even the supposed profesionals in the subject. ...because most people care more about "looking" stronger than actually BEING stronger or healtier.

Information on true, healthy, functional physical conditioning is very hard to find, but you don't have to look far to find instruction on how to make your muscles BIGGER.


I disagree with you greatly...MR. Lee definately does NOT look like a wimp. (IMO)

(This whole thing is a big pet-peeve of mine)

[Lupin]

You're totally missing the point. What you have been brainwashed to believe is "better" and the Most impressive is NOT.

Only in your opinion.

[Vuldari]

You're totally missing the point. What you have been brainwashed to believe is "better" and the Most impressive is NOT.

Only in your opinion.

I'm not talking about aesthetic preference here. I'm talking about actual, physical capacity and overall pools of abilities and performance.

If you train a human body to have the maximum combination of speed, agility, strength and endurance the result would be, and is, far more lean than bulgy. ...there is no "opinion" about that fact.

Bulk=brute strenth...and not much else.

(Being HUGE also puts a considerable strain on ones heart...which ultimately leads to a shorter life span.)

When conditioned right, a person can have nearly half the body mass, but the same level of brute stength as someone who only focused on increasing the visable mass of their muscles. There is a very good reason why the worlds best martial artists (as well as olympic runners, swimmers, jumpers, etc.) are not huge.

...but again, you will have a hard time finding supporting research for my claims, since most of the "Fitness" organizations of the world are composed almost entirely of mass-increasing and waist shrinking programs (niether of which is as healthy as you have been lead to beleive) by the popular demand of the ignorant populace.


...and, of course, you don't beleive me, so I'm probobly just wasting my time trying to open your eyes to the truth you don't want to know.

*sigh*

[white]

Well, you've got me on your side, at least.

[JoshuaMadoc]

actually, i wouldn't mind having a thick waist... it's having an 200 inch waist that i wouldn't like.

EDIT: i think the most appropriate physique of a RL werewolf with the initial human build of slender to normal would look something like this:

[Renorei]

You're totally missing the point. What you have been brainwashed to believe is "better" and the Most impressive is NOT.

Only in your opinion.

I'm not talking about aesthetic preference here. I'm talking about actual, physical capacity and overall pools of abilities and performance.

But the thing is, I am talking about aesthetic preference. For a werewolf movie, I care way more about how they look than about representing the human body well or whatever.

And to me, impressive musculature looks much better than the lean look. It doesn't matter to me which is healthier for the body. I like what looks cooler. And for me (and, as you said, a majority of the world), that would be a muscly werewolf. Not huge and bulgy, by any means. But at least enough to look imposing.

As cool as Freeborn is going to be...I doubt that it will have enough clout to reverse everyone's (well, almost everyone) impression of what healthy and strong looks like. If lean was the current societal ideal for a body, then sure, let's go with that. But, at this particular time (and most likely for a long time in the future), it's not. What people want now is muscles. So, I'm all in favor of giving it to them. Let's leave the correcting of societal misconceptions to athletes and researchers. Nobody is going to take it seriously if it's coming from Hollywood, particularly not a werewolf movie. And especially not if it's only one movie in a sea of others that show their characters totally differently.



(As a side note, I would really, really like it if we could see some concept art for the werewolves, displaying different levels of musculature so we could all choose what we prefer for the movie.)

[Shadow Wulf]

Im with kitetsu and Excelsia, ofcourse I dont mind having a werewolf in a movie thats lean aswell,in fact I like it also, its something new and refreshing, but most people do like muscular werewolfs.

[Ultraken]

It's partly a style thing and partly a genre convention--werewolves embody and exaggerate the things we fear about nature and about ourselves. Because wolves (like all predators) fairly strong and dangerous for their size, we grant werewolves even greater strength and danger. However, each individual werewolf should be different, just like each individual person is different, and each individual wolf is different.

[Lupin]

I'm not talking about aesthetic preference here. I'm talking about actual, physical capacity and overall pools of abilities and performance.

Then you're in the wrong thread. This entire thread has been about aesthetic preference. Remember, we're talking about a movie here. In a movie, it's all about what 'looks good' to the largest amount of people.

[Vilkacis]

I have to agree with Vuldari on this one. A muscular build isn't impressive to me and can even end up looking silly (or in extreme cases, disgusting). Bruce Lee, there, looks much healthier to me than that guy in the picture kitetsu posted a few posts up. I would be much more impressed by a werewolf with speed, agility, skill, and intelligence than I would be by a werewolf Hulk, no matter how Incredible.

-- Vilkacis

[Ultraken]

Ooh, I thought of something.

The "sculpted" muscular build is an artificial product of civilization, as it requires carefully-controlled nutrition and exercise in combination with proper genetics. Until relatively recently, such a thing would be virtually impossible. In "the wild", you would more likely end up with a range from Bruce Lee style wiry muscle to World's Strongest Man style bearlike build. Even very large and strong animals (lions, tigers, bears) don't have bulging muscle with narrow joints.

"Civilized"/"Modern" weres could achieve some of the football player / wrestler / weight lifter bulging-muscle bulk, but "Rural"/"Feral" weres would have more of an animal-like strong-but-streamlined build. Just a thought...

[Timber-WoIf]

(As a side note, I would really, really like it if we could see some concept art for the werewolves, displaying different levels of musculature so we could all choose what we prefer for the movie.)

i agreee with that. We definatly need some good visuals...

[Renorei]

Ooh, I thought of something.

The "sculpted" muscular build is an artificial product of civilization, as it requires carefully-controlled nutrition and exercise in combination with proper genetics. Until relatively recently, such a thing would be virtually impossible. In "the wild", you would more likely end up with a range from Bruce Lee style wiry muscle to World's Strongest Man style bearlike build. Even very large and strong animals (lions, tigers, bears) don't have bulging muscle with narrow joints.

"Civilized"/"Modern" weres could achieve some of the football player / wrestler / weight lifter bulging-muscle bulk, but "Rural"/"Feral" weres would have more of an animal-like strong-but-streamlined build. Just a thought...

True. But, since this is a movie, it is, as Lupin pointed out, and as I have said before, about what 'looks good' to most people.

[Vuldari]

On the point of "Aesthetics vs. Realism" I would like to bring up a concept I first mentioned in the Big Picture thread.

...Characatures...

Now...the majority of us here are accustomed to seeing Werwolves portrayed in Drawn/ Cartoon form. ...Sometimes almost freakishly detailed, but still not representations of realistic creatures. A drawing of a Cartoon Werewolf, like Jon Taliban is a "Characature" of a werewolf. It is a stylized exageration of what many of us think are the most distunguishing features of the creature.

The thing is..."Freeborn" is not going to be an animated film, nor am I expecting it to be an over-the-top Comic Book style film like X-men, The Hulk, the Fantastic Four, Hellboy, or even Underworld. It is Supposedly going to be a film about so-called "Real" Werewolves, rather than "characature" representations of them.

However, since we do not have any "REAL" werewolves to use as examples of how they should look, we must refer to the examples we do have and apply a bit of Logic to them.

If THIS is a "Characature" of a Werewolf...

...than a "Real" werewolf would obvioulsly be a reverse-exageration of most of it's most distunguishing features.

In other words...this is an EXAGERATION of a Real Werewolf...and not an acurate representation of ones actual features and appearance.


That is my opinion on the subject.

Those dimentions are just fine for a Cartoon, a Videogame, a Graphic novel, a Painting, an Animated film or just some other cool Art...but in a Live-Action film that is trying to take the characters seriously?...

...I just don't think that would work.

[JoshuaMadoc]

oh, now i REALLY missed on the whole topic.

i could do some concept illustrations... but that'd take me ages.

[Vuldari]

oh, now i REALLY missed on the whole topic.

i could do some concept illustrations... but that'd take me ages.

I would just like to say now that I think your artistic skill and style is FANTASTIC.

Your art is exeptional examples of super-exagerated "Characature" style Characters. Obvioulsly, your characters would not look right if represented with the exact same dimensions in Real Life...but in art form, they look SPECTACULAR as they are.

...however, to stay within the topic, I will reiterate that we are talking about a LIVE ACTION film here, and not a Comic Book.

What may look great on the cover of "Freeborn: Lost Freedom" (the imaginary Graphic novel Spin-Off Comic Series I just made up) would not necessarily look equaly as appropriate On-Camera.


[Edit:]
BTW Kitetsu... what do you mean by "Missed" on the Topic?

The discussion is still On-going, so you should feel free to jump in and share your honest opinion on the subject.

...allthough I AM making a strong push against super muscular Werewolves in this LiveAction film, that does not mean that I do not welcome valid arguments, or just plain old opinions that go against my own.

Contrary to how it may appear, I am NOT trying to manipulate the popular opinion solely for my own personal gain.

I am thinking about the best interests of the whole Pack, and what we would all be most satisfied to see in the final product. I'm just trying to keep things in perspective, hopefully so we can avoid making an unfortunate mis-judgement on the "requested" (Anthony, Tim, Silver and the rest of the crew will inevitably do what THEY think is best in the end, so all of our sugestions remain just that. "Suggestions"), aesthetic and style direction of the film.

Ultimately, You, the rest of the Pack, and the "Freeborn" crew will all make what you will about my opinions and concept contributions and either consider them valid, or dismiss and ignore them. That is totally up to you. I'm just saying my piece.

...I've said what I think. So what do YOU think?

[JoshuaMadoc]

...allthough I AM making a strong push against super muscular Werewolves in this LiveAction film, that does not mean that I do not welcome valid arguments, or just plain old opinions that go against my own.

that's exactly what i missed out on. i jumped the gun thinking that this was about how wws should look in general.

EDIT: i greatly appreciate your compliment, by the way.

[Lupin]

Those dimentions are just fine for a Cartoon, a Videogame, a Graphic novel, a Painting, an Animated film or just some other cool Art...but in a Live-Action film that is trying to take the characters seriously?...

...I just don't think that would work.

http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/31/e ... olf9jk.jpg would work perfectly. You're trying to apply real-world logic to a place where people can randomly burst into song, cars explode when they go over the cliff instead of when they impact at the bottom, and everyone's in perfect health and drives a sports car. Even in a serious movie the rules of aesthetics and dramatic effect are followed. Nobody would go to see a movie where the people in it were just like they are. People don't go to movies to see themsevles, people go to movies to see the people they want to be.

[white]

Not bad. The tail's a bit short, and I think the arms're too human, but the musculature looks close to right.

[Renorei]

On the point of "Aesthetics vs. Realism" I would like to bring up a concept I first mentioned in the Big Picture thread.

...Characatures...

Now...the majority of us here are accustomed to seeing Werwolves portrayed in Drawn/ Cartoon form. ...Sometimes almost freakishly detailed, but still not representations of realistic creatures. A drawing of a Cartoon Werewolf, like Jon Taliban is a "Characature" of a werewolf. It is a stylized exageration of what many of us think are the most distunguishing features of the creature.

The thing is..."Freeborn" is not going to be an animated film, nor am I expecting it to be an over-the-top Comic Book style film like X-men, The Hulk, the Fantastic Four, Hellboy, or even Underworld. It is Supposedly going to be a film about so-called "Real" Werewolves, rather than "characature" representations of them.

However, since we do not have any "REAL" werewolves to use as examples of how they should look, we must refer to the examples we do have and apply a bit of Logic to them.

If THIS is a "Characature" of a Werewolf...

...than a "Real" werewolf would obvioulsly be a reverse-exageration of most of it's most distunguishing features.

In other words...this is an EXAGERATION of a Real Werewolf...and not an acurate representation of ones actual features and appearance.


That is my opinion on the subject.

Those dimentions are just fine for a Cartoon, a Videogame, a Graphic novel, a Painting, an Animated film or just some other cool Art...but in a Live-Action film that is trying to take the characters seriously?...

...I just don't think that would work.

I know what you mean by caricatures. However, Quentin is, IMO, not a caricature at all. I would love to see something similar to him in Freeborn, and I don't think the vast majority of the audience would have any trouble taking him seriously. He's beautiful.

Furthermore, none of us has the authority to say what is and what isn't and exaggeration of a real werewolf. True, some examples are a little over the top, and we can all agree that they may be going a little too far. But, for an example like Quentin, it is your opinion that he is exaggerated, but many people (myself included) think he looks just fine.

...allthough I AM making a strong push against super muscular Werewolves in this LiveAction film, that does not mean that I do not welcome valid arguments, or just plain old opinions that go against my own.

Contrary to how it may appear, I am NOT trying to manipulate the popular opinion solely for my own personal gain.

I am thinking about the best interests of the whole Pack, and what we would all be most satisfied to see in the final product. I'm just trying to keep things in perspective, hopefully so we can avoid making an unfortunate mis-judgement on the "requested" (Anthony, Tim, Silver and the rest of the crew will inevitably do what THEY think is best in the end, so all of our sugestions remain just that. "Suggestions"), aesthetic and style direction of the film.

What's best for the whole pack? Come on now, how can you say that when you know that a huge number of us disagree with you?

Those of us that are in favor of muscly werewolves aren't idiots. We don't want AB, TA, and Silver to blindly pack on the muscle until the werewolves look totally unbelievable or are unable to move. We want them to add as much muscle as will be aesthetically pleasing to the average audience member, and then stop. Nobody really knows exactly how much muscle that will entail. Also, 'supermuscly' is not really describing what we want. Though we do want werewolves that are taller and more muscly than the average human, that hardly constitutes 'supermuscly'.


Anyway, sorry if any of that offends you. I'm just stating my opinions as well.

[Apokryltaros]

I agree with Excelsia...
How is Quentin an "exaggeration" of a skinny werewolf?
At the very least, a healthy "lean" physique would be bulked out, if not padded, by several square feet of shag carpetting.

[Kavik]

I get what Vuldari is saying, and for the most part I agree with him. If all a werewolf was about was brute strength, then fine, go for the uber-physique, but otherwise balance makes sense.

But I also gotta say there's nothing wrong with pumped up werewolves, assuming that a werewolf is a supernatural creature that does not rely solely on its natural attributes. The catch there is that a supernatural werewolf would also not necessarily have to rely on large muscles to exhibit unearthly feats of strength. Superman's never been shown to be as bulked up as the Hulk except in the worst lampoons

Course, there's no arguing with aesthetics. What I find pleasing doesn't work for everyone. And I have to admit that for the most part, Large = Intimidating. So really, it takes all kinds.