Pregnant werewolf?

[vrikasatma]

[23Jarden]

Can you imagine the look on the doctors face when he delivered that child?

"What the? Why is it in a sac?"
Even more so if the child was born in Gestalt form. Which might lead to more "mom's the home docter" cases.

[ChaosWolf]

Can you imagine the look on the doctors face when he delivered that child?

"What the? Why is it in a sac?"
Even more so if the child was born in Gestalt form. Which might lead to more "mom's the home docter" cases.

Indeed. Home-birthing might even be the traditional method... kind of an indirectly cultural thing for werewolves as a race.

[garouda]

Can you imagine the look on the doctors face when he delivered that child?

"What the? Why is it in a sac?"
Even more so if the child was born in Gestalt form. Which might lead to more "mom's the home docter" cases.

Indeed. Home-birthing might even be the traditional method... kind of an indirectly cultural thing for werewolves as a race.

Considering all the possible 'strange' conditions and complications that might well be unique to WWs, I suspect that hospitals would almost have to be right out of the picture. On the other hand, the human history of midwifery is quite ancient. That should also apply to the WW packs. After all, modern medicine has not really been all that modern for very long. And nothing, really prevents the larger WW communities from having clinics where specialized equipment might be either permanently or periodically available.

Cannot help but wonder how many WW Phd Mds the world would have, and what their specialties and subspecialities might be ? Would some have their Doctorates in both human and veterinary practice ? How would they manage that if they did ?

[vrikasatma]

[Figarou]

A puppy may not have claws inside the womb.

Where in hell did you get that idea from? Puppies are born with claws. I've got the scratches to prove it.

Dang, I didn't realize what I said until you pointed it out.


(Note to self. Proof read before you post. And never post when you are tired.)

[Raina The Werewolf Queen]

Well if you think about it, the child should stay human. the mother shifting would have no physical reaction to the baby or pup lol

[Shadow Wulf]

Ok mabey I should have been more detailed. I think a baby should be half way to gestalt when born and then slowly revert back to human and the lycanthropy would remain dormant untill the hormones are activated.

[Ink]

The female body has its delicate points during pregnancy -- too much of anything can ultimately be bad for the baby. Too many variables that may effect a child could also cause it's abort.

This from the same person who went on and on about how NOT delicate humans are...

Can someone explain to my why a mother shifting would cause an abortion? Give me good, scientific reasons, not bull where the only backing is "well, I don't like it, so there!"

I hate the not shifting until puberty thing with a passion. A fierce, snarly passion. It only adds another level of complication to an already complicated subject. It never seemed logical to me. I feel that kids can shift, therefore unborn babies can shift with the mother, just not on their own.

You misaligned what I was saying. We aren't fragile. In fact, it's a defense mechanism in the body when a mother aborts a baby. It's her body going, "No, I won't have it." There's a slew of reasons why -- from abnormalities, to chromosome problems to illness. Weaklings can't survive -- this is pre-weeding for the populus. It doesn't always work, but for werewolves I'd give it the extra benefit that I think it'd work overtime, actually.

Due to our not-so-fragile state now doesn't mean I advocated those who can barely walk to take their bodys and walk down the lines on I-90. I also don't advise the elderly to sprint down stairs. I also don't advise running with scissors -- but the actuality of the matter is our 'not so fragile' state comes from the simple fact we've managed to survive as a species in some of the harshest arenas this world and our own cultural makings of environments.

I never said people didn't die but the whole of the species has continued on. We always have stragglers. Like people who die from the flu or pox or whooping cough. Or before they're born.

Now, as for a mother werewolf shifting causing an abort -- In my thinking a shift would mean consuming of energy. If it's mystical then you can use divine energy and forget what I'm saying.

A baby is stored up energy being fed -- it could very well, in the early stages of pregnancy, just be re-absorbed like the lining of the uterus can be. Why? Because it is a dynamic bodily change. It'd be a bodily function, releasing hormones, shifting bones (if it moves the pelvis you've all ready got issues), moving organs -- everything changes suddenly. A female body is equipt to use extra energy if Mom hasn't kept up on her intake to keep her and her young safe.

She's ill equipt to take care of the child that tells her body so biology solves the problem by consuming it in a shift and using it.

Pregnancy as a whole in shifting would be hazardous simply because sustaining a baby through shifts would be difficult. Gestalt form would be awkward at best. Wolf form would be impractical since wolves have a 63 day gestation period. Even changing the baby like that would result in hap-hazard fashions.

These things are DEVELOPING... Being a baby doesn't give you expressed abilities. What's a 3 week old fetus going to do when mom turns into a wolf? Turn into a wolf cub? That'd make no sense, biologically. Turn into a werewolf? It's little body isn't fully formed or functioning yet... there's nothing to turn just to interrupt.

And think of the hell a parent would have with a kid who could just shift. That's awkward. Send Little Timmy to school and he comes back with a note from his teacher telling mom not to let Timmy bring his dog to school anymore. Yeah, no.

The body will simply abort a child if something too dynamic occurs. Rapid introduction of chemicals, hormone imbalance, dynamic changes in bodily fluids -- such as blood pressure changes. It's a whole body change.

Reason is why I can't and never could expect a kid to morph into that.

I'm not sure what isn't significantly threatening to a baby about it either.

The changing at puberty thing isn't as much fun but don't throw down the glove on everybody elses ideals. I think it'd be hopeless exposure to people in public, it wouldn't work because kids aren't fully formed yet and would ultimately kill themselves if they did shift. And I'm not sure what's more complex: Changing at puberty or having kids who can change after they exit the womb....

Just because you want cold hard facts on the subject material of werewolves doesn't mean they'll ever exist. Or that you'd like them if they did.

Like what you like, this is fantasy. And I'll like what I like, because this is fantasy. Simple. No need for getting all snarly passionate about it.

[Set]

It's a pet peeve of mine. I have reasons for not liking it to the extent I do, but they're not really importaint.

I don't get what's potentially lethal about a shift in general to begin with. Stress? Shock? What? Other than the potential drama it can add to a story is there any particular thing that makes it deadly?

I'm one of those people who (usually) needs reasons. You're right about one thing though. It's fantasy. Therefore I think it'd be alright to fudge it a little.

[Ink]

It's a pet peeve of mine. I have reasons for not liking it to the extent I do, but they're not really importaint.

I don't get what's potentially lethal about a shift in general to begin with. Stress? Shock? What? Other than the potential drama it can add to a story is there any particular thing that makes it deadly?

I'm one of those people who (usually) needs reasons. You're right about one thing though. It's fantasy. Therefore I think it'd be alright to fudge it a little.

What's potentially lethal about a shift...

When you're out in the woods some day and you pick up a tadpole and go, "Be a frog!" And decide to 'help him out' and pull on his tail...

Now, imagine doing that to someone, without killing them, to make them something else.

Biological matter shifting, having to use some sort of pent up potential energy to force muscles and bones, and nerves and organs and the base of the body into something it wasn't before. That's beyond stressful.

In fact, think of it as a shock to the body, like surgery in fact. A natural, biological surgery. The body has to respond to it, meaning all of it's attention goes to that and keeping the organism alive. You have to be physically strong to endure, have extra mass involved. An undernurished or malnurished creature couldn't do it.

Just like people die under the knife on an operating table. Sometimes it's just too much for the body to handle: shock, stress, too weak, previous illness or a mistake occurs causing some kind of incompatibility or malfunction which could be killer.

Definately makes a dynamic to it but there's definately a load of reasons why. Rapid, dramatic change usually can be lethal. Ask anybody in the science world -- they'll tell you that.

[garouda]

But Ink,

We are not talking about ordinary human beings here

This is a species adapted and designed for this.

Ages and ages of natural selection for the more adequate genetic code over the less adequate.

and of course, there is also the mystic magical factor too.

[Ink]

But Ink,

We are not talking about ordinary human beings here

This is a species adapted and designed for this.

Ages and ages of natural selection for the more adequate genetic code over the less adequate.

and of course, there is also the mystic magical factor too.

This isn't a 'species' by itself. It's a complex sort of supernatural being of myth and lore consuming man and beast as one thing, in some union we feel we've lost. No telling what it can or cannot do to the human body.

Even with adaptive breeding will come variation. Without variation a species can't survive so just because a species gets stronger doesn't mean you can't find new and up-coming weak points. Even super-natural weakpoints.

Prone to highest standards, vicious weedings of those not concious of body, self, strengths, and vulnerabilities... Nature has a tendency to be tragic and beautiful due to its blind will and complete force that doesn't discriminate. Super-natural things must me all the more dynamic of those aspects.

And prowess is not usually granted to those lacking the capacity to carry it. When it is a failure of nature it will be shut down.

Over time, yes, adaptability becomes true. But there is no 'perfect'.

For werewolves the first shift is the most tell-tale because for anyone it can mean a multitude of things. For a baby the first time mom shifts would be tell-tale of the child's status in the womb. Was mom careful to pick her shift date -- was the baby okay? Was she concious of what went on?

If not, baby dies. Mom was unwitting -- bad mother. No need for offspring if she can't support. Biology just reacts to an action.

These aren't Gods-Among-Men.

I don't think my principles escape the realm of the supernatural -- in fact, I would think the supernatural makes even better selections. More cruel, perhaps, as well. More dynamic ones too. It is, after all, super-natural... And with that, too, comes rarity but why it can sustain itself.

[Fenrir]

I have a question would the Fetus change as well?

[Ink]

I have a question would the Fetus change as well?

That's something no one agrees on. Like usual.

I say no. Figarou agrees. Set says yes. It varies and is preferance oriented to what you like or dislike in the ideals of werewolves.

*Shrugs* Fantasy critters, after all.

[Kzinistzerg]

it my story-universe i kept it to-

Mother CAN shift. BUT, it's REALLY NOT RECOMENDED. That is, once the baby's big enough. but lacking biology knowledge (i'm only in high school bio, after all) i figured this wasn't too much of a stretch.

child shifts after age two or three- this is also when the more visible bodily characteristics come in. (my were's can be any animal and any color of teh rainbow, and also anywhere from four to seven or eight feet tall. naturally, this could go wacko, so all htis starts developing after a year or so of age.)

shifting isn't harmonal, it's partially normal physics and aprtially magic. it's also literally a gift from the gods. and genetic engineering.

however, in real life? i think kids should be able to shift not from birth, but but maybe a few months after it. just not at puberty or whatnot. and no mom shifting.

[Fenrir]

The feetus is confusing, I think it would either make the mother unable to change because it would put to much pressure on the womb killing the baby or the baby would have to change

[garouda]

The feetus is confusing, I think it would either make the mother unable to change because it would put to much pressure on the womb killing the baby or the baby would have to change

I think Fenrir has a point worth seriously considering. The wombs of the different forms vary. A human womb is more capacious than a wolf one. But if the offspring's own anatomy shifts with the mother to accomodate, then that issue is off the table. Conformality of the foetus contained within, makes a lot of sense. Just remember, it is the basic nature of werewolves to change. As for suggesting that werewolves could not develop compensating factors to enable the burgeoning life within to be carried along with the support of the mother's WW metabolism. One can be arbitrary in either direction. I would not be averse to the strength of the mother and her health being a credible factor, but just a blanket inability. As before, that is just arbitrary.

Further, I think many do not like the idea of a child being able shift from at or shortly after birth. I could easiy see independant shifting being beyond the infant's or perhaps even the child's capacity without the synchronous carry along effect which is endowed to the unborm before parturition.

But let us posit that what if WW young can shift from early in their lives ? So what ? It simply presents a different set of paradigms for the storyteller to work with. For someone crafting such, it is really just a choice of what issues and challenges they would like their tale to work with.

[Aki]

But if the offspring's own anatomy shifts with the mother to accomodate, then that issue is off the table.

The main issue I have with Fetus-shifting is that the kid isn't even complete yet, changing sounds absolutely out of the question.

I mean, its like Designing a building, then when the workers are half-way through, telling them to rebuild it into a completely different design, in far less time than the first design took to make. It just isn't plausible...

I mean, if the unborn child can shift at the same rate as mama, why in the hell doesn't he hurry up and get born? I mean, he's proven he can grow stuff at a incredible rate (in this instance, a muzzle, tail fur, claws, etc...)

[ChaosWolf]

I say not only can the unborn child NOT shift...

But neither can the mother, while pregnant.

It's kind of like a failsafe measure to protect both the health of the infant (the strain on an undeveloped body that shifting would bring would almost be guaranteed lethal) but also to protect the health of the mother (her body is already under plenty of stress and running at top-gauge to help care for the child, so attempting to shift could easily harm her).

Whichever form (human, gestalt, or wolf) the mother conceives in, she stays in until the child is born nine months later - yes, true wolves have a gestation period of about 60 days... but these are not true wolves, are they? Approximately one month after birthing, the mother can again shapeshift as normal.

The child develops and is born in a suitable match to the form the mother conceived in - human baby to human mother, wolf-cub to wolf mother, and a gestalt child to a gestalt mother - and stays in that form for the first year. After the first year, the child subconsciously 'chooses' a form to assume (it could stay in the same form, or end up as another), and is 'locked' in that form until puberty, when the shapeshifting ability is regained once the body has matured enough to be capable of handling the strain of the Change on a regular basis.


This explains why sighting pregnant or child werewolves is so difficult. Those that are not 'locked' into human form, are kept hidden and protected by the rest of the pack until they can shift safely.

[garouda]

Um

This isn't all biophysics ....

Though I have seen folks propose nanite driven polymorphs

It's also something else, not just something normal, but at least a little bit, if not hugely; paranormal.

[hairy_dog]

Some other things to think about if a baby does happen to either shift or stay in a semi-gestalt form during pregnancy...

Would the gestation period be somewhere between that of a wolf (63 days or so) and a human (9 months)?

Along the same vein, would this also cause the child to grow to maturity at a faster rate (wolf sexual maturity is 2 - 3 years, human 10 - 15 years)?

[garouda]

I suspect that the most workable would be that regardless of shape, the gestation would be a static figure.

Some writers have credibly addressed WW aging on the basis of time spent in the various forms. I.E. aging faster while a wolf aka at the canid rate, than while human which occurs at the homo sapiens rate.

Others seem to go with aging more aligned with human aging regardless of formor. Sometimes even having the WW age along a longer curve than that at which humans waste away.

So in the end it seems to be writers choice.

[Set]

Would the gestation period be somewhere between that of a wolf (63 days or so) and a human (9 months)?

I would think it'd carry for the full expanse of the human term, anything else would cause too much suspicion.

Along the same vein, would this also cause the child to grow to maturity at a faster rate (wolf sexual maturity is 2 - 3 years, human 10 - 15 years)?

Maturity for my weres goes by the human rate. I just plain can't see it going by wolf standards. Werewolves are primarily human, so it only makes sense to go by the human numbers.

[Scott Gardener]

What could be lethal about shapeshifting?:

1. Cerebral herniation: If the brain did not change size in perfectly coordinated timing with the skull, if even a few millimeters of brainstem buldges against its surrounding membrane, death happens pretty quickly.

2. Status epilepticus: I would expect a sudden change of brain size to lower seizure threshold tremendously. Seizures would be a serious potential problem among newly converting werewolves. A prolonged seizure can cause brain damage.

3. Arrythmia: The conduction system of the heart is a finely tuned system, beginning with a cluster of pacemaker cells known as the sinoatrial node, distributing signals throughout the atria, and then through a group of bundle branches into the ventricles, causing the heart to beat regularly. If the heart has to reshape itself to fit a new space, this process could potentially cause the conduction system to misfire. Add to that the fact that the heart rate is probably already sky-high as the person screams, hollers, and comes to grips with his or her change. This could lead to sudden ventricular fibrillation--an erratic and uncoordinated electrical conduction process. When this happens, call an ambulance and get out the paddles!

4. Hemorrhagic fever: A rapidly accelerated metabolism paired with dramatic disruptions at the cellular level could cause a reaction that has a disturbing similarity to someone with ebola.

5. Anaphylaxis: The immune system fights foreign materials with an inflammatory response. A virus rapidly spreading throughout the body could set off a widespread immune reaction that would resemble the notorious "killed by a bee sting" problem, in which everything swells, the throat swells closed, and the person stops breathing.

6. Disseminated intravascular coaggulation: If anaphylaxis doesn't kill you, the clusters of antibodies and lycanthrope virii (or whatever you call the lycanthropic virus-like vector) could set off platelet activity, resulting in numerous emboli and blood clots throughout the blood vessels. But, the real problem is, when this happens, all the clotting factors are used up, and nothing is left to repair normal damage from even baseline physiology. The end result is, you internal hemorrhage and bleed to death, much like rat poison.

7. Embolisms: As mentioned above, blood clots could form. Assuming the immune system problem is solved, there's still the problem of atherosclerosis. It happens in humans, but not in canines, and a healthy werewolf probably wouldn't have any. If all the plaques of the arteries are broken down too quickly, they can break loose and travel the bloodstream, lodging in the brain, causing a stroke, or in the heart, causing a heart attack. Or the lung, causing a "pulmonary embolism," which means, well, an embolism in the lung. (I guess the term "lung attack" never caught on.) Any way you look at it, embolisms are bad. And, autopsies done on people who died of other things show that atherosclerotic plaques begin forming while we're teenagers.

8. You get the idea...

Still, these are only problems if you're doing lycanthropy strictly biologically. If you use "soft magic," you're probably OK. If it's all science, however, then you've got to have a pretty advanced intelligence designing the thing, and be sure to have your bite victims sign informed consent waivers!