Pregnant werewolf?

[Vuldari]

I tend to prefer the "baby shifts with the mother" option.

That could very well kill the baby. Things that little can't handle stress well.

Agree.

I agree as well.

Also...I still stand by this idea/statement I made earlier.

However...the way I see it, the unborn child of a werewolf would not have biological functions yet capable of the feat of shapeshifting, just as most of thier muscles, as well as thier lungs and digetive tracts are not yet fully functional either. It is not untill a short time before birth that a human childs bodies really "Work". (and sometimes then, even still not yet...a leading cause of newborn death)

[CrewWolf]

Let's just say it's all magic and be done with it *gonk*

Or for you religious people out there frightened of da witchcraft, you can say God did it.

And for you cleverly disguised religious folks, you can say it's Intelligent Differentiation and then everybody can be happy.

....

I'm not entirely sure what point I'm trying to prove.

[garouda]

Let's just say it's all magic and be done with it *gonk*

Or for you religious people out there frightened of da witchcraft, you can say God did it.

And for you cleverly disguised religious folks, you can say it's Intelligent Differentiation and then everybody can be happy.

....

I'm not entirely sure what point I'm trying to prove.

Exactly !

Now wasn't that easy ?

[Raina The Werewolf Queen]

Ok look If a werewolf's body can heal its self from just about anything. After sex should the female werewolf's body heal and thus make her a virgin every time she's finished.

[garouda]

At least in terms of the usual signs, that may appear to be true.

Except for one thing.

If a pregnancy is initiated by the act which of course is meant by nature to cause such.

[Apokryltaros]

It may be just me, but, the idea that a female werewolf can regenerate from sex, so as to become a virgin again sounds silly and far-fetched.

[Aki]

It may be just me, but, the idea that a female werewolf can regenerate from sex, so as to become a virgin again sounds silly and far-fetched.

Yeah. The thingy that can be a indicator of virginity (I forgot the name) is meant to be destroyed in the same manner the cells that had your fingers fused together when you were but a embryo died so they you may have four fingers and a thumb.

Well, not exactly the same, but the similarity exists. These things were made to be destroyed.

[Apokryltaros]

It may be just me, but, the idea that a female werewolf can regenerate from sex, so as to become a virgin again sounds silly and far-fetched.

Yeah. The thingy that can be a indicator of virginity (I forgot the name) is meant to be destroyed in the same manner the cells that had your fingers fused together when you were but a embryo died so they you may have four fingers and a thumb.

Well, not exactly the same, but the similarity exists. These things were made to be destroyed.

Well, the hymen isn't destroyed through apoptosis, like the way one's fingers form, and not form webbing, but, once the hymen ruptures, aka, "cherry's popped," it never regenerates, yes.

[Winged_Wolf]

Well, I see no particular reason why the mother can't shift, and the fetus remain just as it is. There's no reason the fetus has to shift, and no reason the mother couldn't without harming it. It doesn't make any sense for a fetus to shift just because the mother has done so. I also agree there's no reason why a child couldn't shift, but if shifting is a deliberate act, a fetus wouldn't be doing it.
Unless you tie shifting to a part of the brain that develops during puberty--this can also make sense, but then you still have no shapeshifting fetuses.

[Apokryltaros]

One reason, if not the main reason, why some of us raise a fuss about a pregnant werewolf shifting is that the womb will be disturbed whenever she shifts. And any disturbance in the womb will cause the mother to abort the baby.

[Renorei]

I tend to prefer the "baby shifts with the mother" option.

Yup.

[Figarou]

I tend to prefer the "baby shifts with the mother" option.

Yup.

nope.

[Winged_Wolf]

You folks are simply seriously underestimating just how sturdy the womb is. First, there isn't any reason the uterus would have to change significantly. It makes more sense for a shifter to conserve energy by only changing as much as is necessary to affect the shift. Some internal organs serve their functions just as well without changing their shape. Why bother to change them?

The placenta, which is formed by the fetus, attaches to the wall of the uterus closely enough that nutrients pass between adjacent capillaries--the blood supplies don't mix. So long as the shift retained this connection, and did not break the amniotic sac (also created by the fetus itself--and there wouldn't be anything in a shift to cause that to break, either), there's no reason why the womb would be disturbed enough to cause a miscarriage.

It also makes sense that in a species set up to do this, there would be safeguards against shifting causing miscarriage. Perhaps the uterus doesn't shift at all. There's no reason it should have to. Or, perhaps the portion of the uterine wall where the placenta attaches is hormonally induced to remain stable, while the rest changes. That would be enough to ensure the health of the fetus.

In any case, when you go into shifting and childbirth, you have to ask the biggest question: Do werewolves reproduce like humans, or like wolves? Is one egg released at a time, or multiple eggs? The canine uterus is shaped to prevent multiple fetuses from significantly interfering with each other--it forms a Y shape rather than a single large chamber. The fetuses are also smaller, and wolf pups are proportionally much smaller and less well developed than human infants, at birth. (They are furred, but their eyes and ears are sealed shut--they have not yet fully developed their vision and hearing).

If werewolves have only one child at a time, then a human-style uterus is the only logical choice. Going from a natural selection perspective, people trapped in one form through a pregnancy would be at a disadvantage. Simply sparing the womb from shifting at all solves this problem without causing any physiological problems.

However, in the case of a 'one-child' scenario, I would say that the mother must be in human form to give birth to her one large, well-developed infant...the canine form could not handle the passage of such a large baby. Perhaps the infant could be born as a pup, but I think that makes things perhaps a bit too easy. <G>

Species that give live birth are well set up to protect a growing fetus from any possible harm without inconveniencing the mother too badly--why would werewolves be any different?

I can tell you one thing with certainty--if a were mother had the ability to shift, and shift her unborn WITH her, no were would ever give birth in human form...canines have it MUCH easier. <G>

[Jamie]

You folks are simply seriously underestimating just how sturdy the womb is. First, there isn't any reason the uterus would have to change significantly. It makes more sense for a shifter to conserve energy by only changing as much as is necessary to affect the shift. Some internal organs serve their functions just as well without changing their shape. Why bother to change them?

The placenta, which is formed by the fetus, attaches to the wall of the uterus closely enough that nutrients pass between adjacent capillaries--the blood supplies don't mix. So long as the shift retained this connection, and did not break the amniotic sac (also created by the fetus itself--and there wouldn't be anything in a shift to cause that to break, either), there's no reason why the womb would be disturbed enough to cause a miscarriage.

It also makes sense that in a species set up to do this, there would be safeguards against shifting causing miscarriage. Perhaps the uterus doesn't shift at all. There's no reason it should have to. Or, perhaps the portion of the uterine wall where the placenta attaches is hormonally induced to remain stable, while the rest changes. That would be enough to ensure the health of the fetus.

In any case, when you go into shifting and childbirth, you have to ask the biggest question: Do werewolves reproduce like humans, or like wolves? Is one egg released at a time, or multiple eggs? The canine uterus is shaped to prevent multiple fetuses from significantly interfering with each other--it forms a Y shape rather than a single large chamber. The fetuses are also smaller, and wolf pups are proportionally much smaller and less well developed than human infants, at birth. (They are furred, but their eyes and ears are sealed shut--they have not yet fully developed their vision and hearing).

If werewolves have only one child at a time, then a human-style uterus is the only logical choice. Going from a natural selection perspective, people trapped in one form through a pregnancy would be at a disadvantage. Simply sparing the womb from shifting at all solves this problem without causing any physiological problems.

However, in the case of a 'one-child' scenario, I would say that the mother must be in human form to give birth to her one large, well-developed infant...the canine form could not handle the passage of such a large baby. Perhaps the infant could be born as a pup, but I think that makes things perhaps a bit too easy. <G>

Species that give live birth are well set up to protect a growing fetus from any possible harm without inconveniencing the mother too badly--why would werewolves be any different?

I can tell you one thing with certainty--if a were mother had the ability to shift, and shift her unborn WITH her, no were would ever give birth in human form...canines have it MUCH easier. <G>

I basically agree with all these points in my opinions. There isn't enough size difference between wolves and humans for a pregnancy to be something that would have to impact shifting (except maybe with a really large human baby in the very last stages of pregnancy, but even then, maybe a shift would just induce early labor of a baby that was already large enough that it probably wouldn't die just from being born).

However, in the case of a big size difference (such as in a human-to-normal-sized-rat transformation) or in the case of transformation to a form that doesn't carry live unborn within it (such as an egg-layer like an alligator) there would be a lot of points to worry about. Of course, large size differences probably imply shifting that is based on magic or weird physics instead of simple biology, so there might be a whole different set of variables involved that make purely biological considerations to be far less important or to have completely different implications.

[Figarou]

Hmmm....the fetus is surrounded by fluid to protect it against shock.


Not electrical shock. Shock as in being bounced around inside the womb.

If the female is shifting, whats going to happen with the fluid if space is an issue?

[Jamie]

Hmmm....the fetus is surrounded by fluid to protect it against shock.


Not electrical shock. Shock as in being bounced around inside the womb.

If the female is shifting, whats going to happen with the fluid if space is an issue?

Unless shifts are much more violent and wrenching than I tend to envision, a woman could shock the fetus far worse by jumping up and down. As to squeezing issues, I imagine that those would either:

a) Be an issue all over the body, and the transformation mechanism, whatever it is, would have a way to deal with it.

or

b) Not be an issue, because anything that shouldn't be squeezed just isn't.

As far as the size calculations go, there are two points to remember to simplify things:

1) Wolf cubs generally weigh around a pound at birth, with 5-7 cubs being normal and up to twelve being possible. Add this up and the total is within the range for a normal human birth (especially if we are talking about the old days).

2) Wombs are built to manage what's inside them. They stretch enormously over the course of a pregnancy (an unpregnant womb is smaller than the empty roll that toilet paper comes on). I would expect that, in a creature with shapeshifting powers, the womb might be even more stretchy and accomodating. Even if the womb were converted to a Y-shape and the fetus lodged in one leg of that Y, I would expect that the transformation process would simply make that leg of the Y big enough to hold the fetus. The reason I would expect this is because the transformation process would need to be pretty sophisticated in order to deal with lots of other biological issues all around the body, probably hundreds of things that are trickier to do than keeping a fetus alive, all sorts of body parts would need to change in far more radical ways without damaging their basic structure, without squeezing, shredding or misaligning body tissues.

I guess that, after jumping the first hurdle of suspension of disbelief to have a werewolf transformation work without causing death, I have less trouble jumping the second hurdle of having a werewolf transformation not automatically cause the death of a fetus. The second hurdle seems much smaller to me.

[Figarou]

When the fetus is in its earliest development, the pregnant werewolf should have no problem shifting. The fluid in the womb should protect it. But when its getting closer to giving birth, shifting could be a problem.

Have you seen how difficult it is for a pregnant woman to get up from a chair when 8 months pregnant? Having a big belly can restrict some movements. Touching the toes is impossible.


For the female werewolf to continue shifting in the late stages of pregnancy can bring harm to the fetus, or herself.

[mielikkishunt]

I basically agree with all these points in my opinions. There isn't enough size difference between wolves and humans for a pregnancy to be something that would have to impact shifting (except maybe with a really large human baby in the very last stages of pregnancy, but even then, maybe a shift would just induce early labor of a baby that was already large enough that it probably wouldn't die just from being born).

Hunh? Yeah, there is a difference, a big difference.

Shifting is painful, and stressful, and it's a known fact that stress can causae people to abort their unborn baby. A lady at work had to quit work because of the stress, they were afraid she'd lose yet another baby.

The adrenalin wracking the mother's body can't be good on the fetus, the body forms are totally different. Woman are wider in the hip area(where we carry babies) than a lupine is. And carrying that baby without the cradle of the pelvis is goign to be extremely painful to a wolves abdomen.

1) Wolf cubs generally weigh around a pound at birth, with 5-7 cubs being normal and up to twelve being possible. Add this up and the total is within the range for a normal human birth (especially if we are talking about the old days).

Yes, but that's 5-7 individual critters, which'll stress the body less than one 10 lb critter.

[Shadow Wulf]

A female in werewolf form can give birth to a human form baby just aswell as in human form. but I think on what form does the baby comes out depends on how often does the mother stay in werewolf form through out the early stages of pregnancy, if the first few months the mother is in Gestalt form most of the time then chances are that the baby would be in that form as it develops later on regardless if the mother stays in human form most later pregnancy months.

[Jamie]

Shifting is painful, and stressful, and it's a known fact that stress can causae people to abort their unborn baby. A lady at work had to quit work because of the stress, they were afraid she'd lose yet another baby.

For one thing, shifting is only painful and stressful in some people's scenarios. It depends on how you build your own personal vision of werewolves. For another thing, pain and stress experienced by the mother do not necessarily translate to an increased chance for miscarraige, it depends on the toughness of the mother. There are women who live in abusive marraiges where they get beaten badly on a regular basis, yet still manage to pop out 5 or 6 healthy kids. And I imagine that most of us would envision werewolves as particularly tough women, especially if they have regeneration powers.

The adrenalin wracking the mother's body can't be good on the fetus, the body forms are totally different. Woman are wider in the hip area(where we carry babies) than a lupine is. And carrying that baby without the cradle of the pelvis is goign to be extremely painful to a wolves abdomen.

Not necessarily. For one thing, the total weight of fetus(es) plus womb is similar, and so is the total volume. It is true that wolves are much narrower in the waist area, but a lot of this is due to less intestines (as true carnivores, wolves don't need great masses of intestines in order to fully digest food, like us omnivores do), other organs that are smaller or differently located, and different muscle/bone structures that leads to a different shape of that body space.

As far as needing a pelvis underneath the womb in order to carry a few extra pounds, having a pelvis underlying the body's organs is a freak of human biology, due to our bipedal nature. If it would be so painful to carry 5-7 extra pounds, plus some more weight of fluids and an enlarged womb, without a bone underneath it, then how do pregnant cows manage it? A cow fetus weighs a heck of a lot more than any human unborn or any litter of unborn wolf pups.

As an example of how things are situated inside the body, any doctor will tell you that some people have certain organs (such as the liver especially) that are much larger (or much smaller) than those in other people, or even differently shaped. Yet our external torsos look much the same. This is because, except in the most extreme cases, the body finds a way to fit organs that are larger than usual among the other organs. I would tend to imagine that any process capable of changing a human into a wolf would have a sophisticated way of dealing with the problem of how to arrange the internal organs.

In addition, animals seem to be designed to handle pregnancies better than humans. Having grown up on a farm, I've sometimes seen animals give birth to surprisingly large babies (or a surprisingly large number of smaller babies) when they didn't even look pregnant. Even when they did look pregnant, often they only looked a bit that way, and didn't start looking that way until a week, or a few days, before birth (one of our horses, a Welsh pony, was very much like this; she would always not look pregnant until about four days before birth).

If these qualities tranferred over to pregnant female werewolves, I might expect them to be unusually agile and non-emcumbered when in gestalt form or wolf form (until the last week or two, anyway) and they might not appear to be pregnant in these forms until the 9th month or so.

[mielikkishunt]

Not necessarily. For one thing, the total weight of fetus(es) plus womb is similar, and so is the total volume. It is true that wolves are much narrower in the waist area, but a lot of this is due to less intestines (as true carnivores, wolves don't need great masses of intestines in order to fully digest food, like us omnivores do), other organs that are smaller or differently located, and different muscle/bone structures that leads to a different shape of that body space.

I believe wolves, like dogs, fall into the ominovore listing, not 'true carnivores'.(Unlike cats, who are true carnivore). The way a wolf/canine/feline carries their babies is totally different than the way we do. They carry it in the horns, the pull on the uterine wall is <1 of pull vs >6 of pull. You have that much pull on the placenta, you're more than likely to get a detached placenta.

As far as needing a pelvis underneath the womb in order to carry a few extra pounds, having a pelvis underlying the body's organs is a freak of human biology, due to our bipedal nature. If it would be so painful to carry 5-7 extra pounds, plus some more weight of fluids and an enlarged womb, without a bone underneath it, then how do pregnant cows manage it? A cow fetus weighs a heck of a lot more than any human unborn or any litter of unborn wolf pups.

Cows uterus's are built different. . .and a cow isn't lumbering around at high speeds either.

Even when they did look pregnant, often they only looked a bit that way, and didn't start looking that way until a week, or a few days, before birth (one of our horses, a Welsh pony, was very much like this; she would always not look pregnant until about four days before birth).

Because they carry them high, and that week before the birth, the muscles relax and the baby drops.

If these qualities tranferred over to pregnant female werewolves, I might expect them to be unusually agile and non-emcumbered when in gestalt form or wolf form (until the last week or two, anyway) and they might not appear to be pregnant in these forms until the 9th month or so.

Not with a 9 lb baby. . the forms are totally different than a cow or dog in gestalt form. . .and again, the uterus transforming is going to dislodge the placenta.

[Set]

This is like watching a tennis match.

But you know what? The longer this goes on the more I feel inclined to stand by my original statement.

Animals that can't reproduce die out. It's a simple fact of nature.

[Vuldari]

This is like watching a tennis match.

But you know what? The longer this goes on the more I feel inclined to stand by my original statement.

Animals that can't reproduce die out. It's a simple fact of nature.

True...


...but many species have high mortality and miscarage rates with thier young, and remain successful, thriving species anyway.

I stand by my own statements that werewolf preganancy would be a risky and dangerous endevor, and not a condition that the mother could just go about shifting and hunting like usual in without risking loosing the baby.

...given the 'unstable' nature of the creature...

A high newborn,/fetus mortality rate could explain the need for the species ability to "assimilate" normal humans as an alternative way of ensuring the survival of the species.

[Anook]

If a werewolf became pregnant whilst in human form, and then turns before going into labor, when she does go through labor as a wolf, will the offspring of the woman/she-wolf come out of the womb as a pup or a child?

[BlackWolfDS]

depends on the type of werewolf. I've read somewhere that the babies come out pups no matter what and then change to human form. Later on they learn to control their ability.

But then I have read that the mother has to give birth in human form and the babies are human. Later on they learn to control their ability.

So honestly idk. There are too many different referances to werewolves and too many ideas.