Baby werewolves?

Darth Canis · Post by **Darth Canis** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:14 pm

I just recently got off Kelley Armstrong's website. She has posted the first chapter of the next elena or werewolf novel called broken. It is toying with the idea of elena and clay having kids. So i pose this question to everyone. Can werewolves have young? If so how many? For their to be a viable young would both parents need to be werewolves? Allright well ummm.. .have at it

outwarddoodles · Post by **outwarddoodles** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 3:19 pm

Actully I've been wondering the same thing. But didn't bother because they arn't getting into that stuff in the movie.

The questions I am wondering about is...
Can a pregnat werewolf morph? and if she does does the baby morph to insde her womb?
What form is the baby born as?
When do they first expereaince shifts?

Lycanthrope · Post by **Lycanthrope** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:36 pm

The last question seems to be the easiest to answer. I think it would come along with the hormones and...This reminds me the "Ginger Snaps" movie. Well the body changes at the time, so the Werewolf-genes could be activated. If someone prefers the supernatural nature of the Werewolves it still seems right to me but...
Assuming that female Werewolves can shift during pregnancy, the child should shift with her (Not very certain about this one thought). The thing I'm sure about is that the child is born in the form like the current one of the mother. In otherwise it would just look wrong.
That's my opinion. Any other's?

Set · Post by **Set** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 4:52 pm

There was a big discussion on this very subject in an older topic. I'm too lazy to dig it up, however, so you'll have to look for it yourselves.

Set · Post by **Set** » Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:22 pm

Aww wolf pups...theyre so cute.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:17 am

We never actually had a thread devoted specifically to wether or not a werewolf is capable of reproduction, but we have covered it in multiple topics:

Age
Werewolves chosing to infect others
Poll: How many cubs?

I don't think we ever reached any solid conclusions, but I know one aspect of lycanthropy specified for the movie is that the shift is painful, sometimes to the point of being fatal. One idea we threw out was that lycanthropy could only become active at puberty. The other was that the majority of lycanthrope pregnancies would be unsuccessful due to the complications of shifting while unborn. Personally, I like the latter, because that would explain how werewolves could live such long lives (the formula Reilune and I came up with in the "Age" thread estimated around 240 years the average) and still be a rarity.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:24 am

Terastas wrote:
I don't think we ever reached any solid conclusions, but I know one aspect of lycanthropy specified for the movie is that the shift is painful, sometimes to the point of being fatal.

I take it you havn't seen this.

http://calypso-blue.com/werewolf/viewto ... =7830#7830

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:32 am

Umm... Yeah, I did miss that. Still, the idea I kept getting was that a lycanthropic shift is fatal when the regenerative capabilities do not become active soon enough, so the ideas could, in that way, go together.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:38 am

Terastas wrote:Umm... Yeah, I did miss that. Still, the idea I kept getting was that a lycanthropic shift is fatal when the regenerative capabilities do not become active soon enough, so the ideas could, in that way, go together.

Did you read my post?

http://calypso-blue.com/werewolf/viewto ... =7831#7831

Certain foods, such as chocolate or chili peppers, can also lead to enhanced secretion of endorphins.

Interesting what scientists can learn.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 9:58 am

Umm... That might be beyond the point. What I was implying was that lycanthropy has two symptoms -- mutation, and regeneration, and it's the latter which allows the werewolf to endure the former. The process of lycanthropic distortion would only be painful without the assistance of regeneration, so if the latter remains inactive for too long, that's what makes a shift fatal.

That's all there is to it. We could go on into the details of what allows a werewolf to produce the endorphines it needs to regenerate, but the question of life or death still boils down just to wether they have them or not.

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 10:55 am

Terastas wrote:Umm... That might be beyond the point. What I was implying was that lycanthropy has two symptoms -- mutation, and regeneration, and it's the latter which allows the werewolf to endure the former. The process of lycanthropic distortion would only be painful without the assistance of regeneration, so if the latter remains inactive for too long, that's what makes a shift fatal.

That's all there is to it. We could go on into the details of what allows a werewolf to produce the endorphines it needs to regenerate, but the question of life or death still boils down just to wether they have them or not.

Endorphins is not used for regeneration. It occurs in the brain to block pain.

http://www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0817336.html

endorphins , neurotransmitters found in the brain that have pain-relieving properties similar to morphine. There are three major types of endorphins: beta endorpins, found primarily in the pituitary gland; and enkephalins and dynorphin, both distributed throughout the nervous system. Endorphins interact with opiate receptor neurons to reduce the intensity of pain: among individuals afflicted with chronic pain disorders, endorphins are often found in high numbers. Many painkilling drugs, such as morphine and codeine, act like endorphins and actually activate opiate receptors. Besides behaving as a pain regulator, endorphins are also thought to be connected to physiological processes including euphoric feelings, appetite modulation, and the release of sex hormones. Prolonged, continuous exercise contributes to an increased production and release of endorphins, resulting in a sense of euphoria that has been popularly labeled “runner's high.”

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 4:39 pm

Figarou wrote:Endorphins is not used for regeneration. It occurs in the brain to block pain.

Well in that case, that's really beside the point. If somebody gets shot up with morphine before their leg gets hacked off, that doesn't mean it never happened. By the same token, it doesn't matter if he can feel the pain of shifting or not -- he'll still die if his body can't recover from it.

outwarddoodles · Post by **outwarddoodles** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 6:16 pm

Yep, just like chocolate. *yum yum yum*

Silver · Post by **Silver** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:18 pm

Ok, before I put this in Silver's corner, I'm going to try to ask some more questions. We DID go over this in other strings, but I don't think we ever came to a conclusion. . Please let me know if I'm wrong.

First. Does as werewolf shift while pregnant The general concensus seems to be yes. I don't personally think that would be possible, because of what causes a shift in the first place. It's been established (I think), that the first influence is the moon. As a WW becomes more familiar with shifting, they are able to decide when to change.

A foetus is not a concious being. It cannot 'decide' to shift. It cannot 'decide' not to shift. And how much influence would the moon have in the womb? Would the baby be unable to control the influence and shift independently of the mother?

And this is going against our also established (i think) method of infection. If we say that infection is the only way to become one, then how does that work with a pregnant mother? Not all infections of the mother go to the child. And yet many do. So how does it work? What chance does the baby have of being infected?

Based on the child's inability to control their shift, and the influence of the moon, I would think that the baby would shift independently. In order for the mother to survive (and through her the baby), the birth would have to be premature. Extremely premature if we say that WWs are larger versions of their human counterpart. I would think that the mortality rate would be high.

It's not a pleasant way to look at it, but I think it's realistic

(well, you know, for werewolves)

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:33 pm

Silver wrote:Ok, before I put this in Silver's corner, I'm going to try to ask some more questions. We DID go over this in other strings, but I don't think we ever came to a conclusion. . Please let me know if I'm wrong.

First. Does as werewolf shift while pregnant The general concensus seems to be yes. I don't personally think that would be possible, because of what causes a shift in the first place. It's been established (I think), that the first influence is the moon. As a WW becomes more familiar with shifting, they are able to decide when to change.

A foetus is not a concious being. It cannot 'decide' to shift. It cannot 'decide' not to shift. And how much influence would the moon have in the womb? Would the baby be unable to control the influence and shift independently of the mother?

And this is going against our also established (i think) method of infection. If we say that infection is the only way to become one, then how does that work with a pregnant mother? Not all infections of the mother go to the child. And yet many do. So how does it work? What chance does the baby have of being infected?

Based on the child's inability to control their shift, and the influence of the moon, I would think that the baby would shift independently. In order for the mother to survive (and through her the baby), the birth would have to be premature. Extremely premature if we say that WWs are larger versions of their human counterpart. I would think that the mortality rate would be high.

It's not a pleasant way to look at it, but I think it's realistic

(well, you know, for werewolves)

Well, there is one other thing we havn't decided on. Its the development of the werewolf fetus. Will it take 9 months? Or will it take less? Wolf pups is 2 months to develop.

Now, as for shifting in the womb, I say its not possible until a certain period in life. The fetus is not fully developed. I say werewolves have a time in there life where a shift can occur when the time is right. It'll be so weird if a werewolf pup is born in gestalt form.

Human babies still need to develop the top part of the skull. It closes in during the 1st year of its life. Werewolf cubs may not have to worry about that. But who knows.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:50 pm

Silver wrote: First. Does as werewolf shift while pregnant The general concensus seems to be yes. I don't personally think that would be possible, because of what causes a shift in the first place. It's been established (I think), that the first influence is the moon. As a WW becomes more familiar with shifting, they are able to decide when to change.

The moon's greatest and most notable influence is on the tides, or more simplistically, water. Our bodies are 90% water, so it could be that the psychological factors associated with the full moon are the result of an influence on our bodies. By this definition, the child would shift under the full moon.

A foetus is not a concious being. It cannot 'decide' to shift. It cannot 'decide' not to shift. And how much influence would the moon have in the womb? Would the baby be unable to control the influence and shift independently of the mother?

Since the child is incapable of deciding to shift or deciding not to shift, it would only shift during the full moon, however such might not always be fatal to the mother. While it is true that the gestalt form is proportionately larger than the human form, it might not be such a great extreme while still developing. Were that not the case, however, the mother would need to assume her gestalt form before the baby did to prevent any... What's the word I'm looking for... Overcrowding?

And this is going against our also established (i think) method of infection. If we say that infection is the only way to become one, then how does that work with a pregnant mother? Not all infections of the mother go to the child. And yet many do. So how does it work? What chance does the baby have of being infected?

What I think we're going with is that lycanthropy enhabits most of or all bodily fluids, which would likely include those being transfered to the baby via the umbilical cord.

Based on the child's inability to control their shift, and the influence of the moon, I would think that the baby would shift independently. In order for the mother to survive (and through her the baby), the birth would have to be premature. Extremely premature if we say that WWs are larger versions of their human counterpart. I would think that the mortality rate would be high.

As I mentioned earlier, the mother would have to be in gestalt form before the baby shifted and retain it at least until the baby reverted back. This could presumably cause problems for the child instead, but the only way to avoid that would be to retain gestalt form for the full duration of the pregnancy, which, in today's society, would be impossible. So yes, pregnancy would be a difficult process.

The only other thing I could think to add would be that the shifting process might not be as fatal to a fetus as we think because, in reality, the fetus is constantly growing and distorting, so much so that the first lycanthropic changes might be miniscule and pose a greater danger of deformity than death. This would obviously change during the last month or two of the pregnancy, but presumably the baby will have developed the prior months with lycanthropy and be better adapted to it than an infected adult.

Further comments or corrections?

(well, you know, for werewolves)[/quote]

Figarou · Post by **Figarou** » Mon Apr 04, 2005 7:57 pm

hmmmm...you know, its hard for me to give my personal idea about werewolves and werewolf pups when there is no facts to go on. I have my idea, others has thier own. I say nay, you say yay. Like I said we just need to come to a logical conclusion.

Just so you know, Terastas. I'm not against your ideas.

outwarddoodles · Post by **outwarddoodles** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 3:10 pm

I'm starting the think the cub wouldn't shift.

There seems to be explained by Vuldari in another thread how with each shift they get more different genes and codes and stuffs. Which starts being created duing the first shift, which starts as our hormones that influence the werewolf start. Plus the baby is nt even fully created it's self as human. With all the sifting the baby could become stuck, mixed a bit, or deformed.

So I'm guessing no shifts at all will start untill they are older. If a pregnat mother can shift I still don't know.

Also being born into werewolf could matter. Being you can be bitten into it I'm guessing it spreads like a desiese, through blood. If so the baby shares the blood of its mother, or may get the genes for the blood from etheir parent. Also in genes, foriming takes certain genetic codes, which means WW has a certain DNA that contains the information of the forms. WE get these informatioon from our genes we are inherited. Which means you may have to have the certain genetics passed on in order for the boy to contain the information.

Apokryltaros · Post by **Apokryltaros** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:24 pm

outwarddoodles wrote: Also being born into werewolf could matter. Being you can be bitten into it I'm guessing it spreads like a desiese, through blood. If so the baby shares the blood of its mother, or may get the genes for the blood from etheir parent. Also in genes, foriming takes certain genetic codes, which means WW has a certain DNA that contains the information of the forms. WE get these informatioon from our genes we are inherited. Which means you may have to have the certain genetics passed on in order for the boy to contain the information.

Babies don't get DNA from their mothers via the blood: They get their mother's DNA via their mother's egg they developed from. Likewise, babies get DNA from their father via the sperm cell he donated to the mother that fertilized the egg.

Now that that's aside, it is possible for babies to be infected with diseases via their mother's blood.

CrewWolf · Post by **CrewWolf** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:17 pm

About the whole "What happens to the baby in the womb when the mother transforms" issue, I'd think that the form of the would be completely dependent on the mother. The baby can and will only change as the mother changes. Even if its a bright full moon and the mother feels like staying human the night, the baby would stay human as well. With that, I think it would be possible for the mother to give birth in either wolf or gestalt form. It wouldn't be recommended but its possible in the same way its possible for a woman to give birth while flying a plane. Inconvenient, perhaps dangerous at the present or in the nearby future. The baby would be born in the form that the mother was in when she gives birth. The baby would stay in that form if its wolf or gestalt or some other freakish little-known-and-as-of-yet-unnamed inbetweener but in the next few days or weeks the baby would slowly revert to their human appearance.

Its a theory. Of course me knowing as little about biology and the development of a fetus, the theory might need some tweaking or if not just be thrown out the window as completely implausible *shrug*

Apokryltaros · Post by **Apokryltaros** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:32 pm

Personally, I stand by the opinion that baby werewolves are unable to transform, in that, as babies, they have yet to secrete appropriate growth hormones that occur when the juvenile has begun to mature. Furthermore, I also think that if a pregnant werewolf mother transforms, she stands a very good chance of spontaneously aborting her fetus.

outwarddoodles · Post by **outwarddoodles** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 6:51 pm

Personally, I stand by the opinion that baby werewolves are unable to transform, in that, as babies, they have yet to secrete appropriate growth hormones that occur when the juvenile has begun to mature. Furthermore, I also think that if a pregnant werewolf mother transforms, she stands a very good chance of spontaneously aborting her fetus.

I'd agree with that said.

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:21 pm

Wether or not they shift really depends on what causes the shift in general. If it's hormonal, the baby won't shift, but if it's more dependent on adrenaline, there's a good chance the baby would.

Either case could be just as likely, so we couldn't really give a solid answer to this for werewolves as a whole -- just for one version or the other.

Apokryltaros · Post by **Apokryltaros** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:01 pm

Terastas wrote:Wether or not they shift really depends on what causes the shift in general. If it's hormonal, the baby won't shift, but if it's more dependent on adrenaline, there's a good chance the baby would.

Either case could be just as likely, so we couldn't really give a solid answer to this for werewolves as a whole -- just for one version or the other.

Adrenaline IS a hormone.

Vilkacis · Post by **Vilkacis** » Tue Apr 05, 2005 11:34 pm

Silver wrote:First. Does as werewolf shift while pregnant ... And how much influence would the moon have in the womb? Would the baby be unable to control the influence and shift independently of the mother?

I would have to agree with Figarou and Apokryltaros on this one. My first tendency would be to think that the child would not shift in the womb. The whole growth-hormone argument seems reasonable to me. Furthermore, even if it did, I do not think it would be harmful unless the child gained a fair amount of mass in the process. Likewise, I don't think the mother shifting would adversely affect the child, either.

Silver wrote:And this is going against our also established (i think) method of infection. If we say that infection is the only way to become one, then how does that work with a pregnant mother? Not all infections of the mother go to the child. And yet many do. So how does it work? What chance does the baby have of being infected?

What precedent do we have? All bets are off.

But if you ask me, the child will be born a werewolf (either due to DNA or infection), but will not have the ability to shift until a certain age. Its form when born would be dependant on the form of the parents when... uh, you know...

I don't think anything but wolf/wolf, human/human, or hybrid/hybrid would produce child.

Bah. Why are we even talking about this?

-- Vilkacis