The skeleton in TF

[Anubis]

((Man, it's been a while since somebody posted a new topic here))

So we talked about almost every thing about werewolf physiology, psychology, sociology, and even sexuality. But i think we never talked about this. I can imagine the cells going in rapid mitosis, but i can't get my head around how the skeleton and other non-living parts of the body like bones, hair/fur, and toe and finger nails change shape like that.

So how does it manage this?

((If this was already talked about and done, just ignore this ))

[Vuldari]

...hmmm...

Good Question. I've allways wondered this myself, but was never able to come up with an answer I was satisfied with, so I've put it in the back of my mind and ignored it.

All of those things "GROW" naturally, so it is easy enough to imagine how they could simply get BIGGER...

...but in the cases where bones, and hair need to actually get smaller/shorter...change color...split into multiple pieces (the number and configuration of bones in a wolf paw is not the same as that of a human hand, though they share key similarities)...fuse together...or change to a completely different shape which can not be achieved by merely ADDING to what is allready there...

...and then all reversed durring the opposite shift...

I'm not sure how that could happen either.

I am more or less satified with the finger and toenails being broken and discarded when replaced by claws, and then regrown when they shift back.

...but that does not answer what happens to the claws durring the reverse shift.



That is a very good question...and I know it has been addressed before, but I don't think it was conclusively answered, so I think it is appropriate to begin the discussion again.


If I think of anything, I'll be sure to mention it here.

[Kaebora]

Bones? Non-living? No part of your body is non-living except for the enamel of your teeth, and the nails of your hands and feet. (Once it's grown out it's merely solid matter rather than cellular tissue.) Bones have blood vessels coursing through them, as well as the marrow that distributes calcium and other compounds that keep the bones healthy and strong. Hair is even made up of tiny cell strands that can be improved with vitaman enriched shampoo. Just thought I might throw all that out there. Sorry I'm being a know-it-all.


That brings into question if it's possible for the teeth and nails to shape shift with the individual. It's possible that they could grow out rapidly, but teeth and nails don't grow backwards. You'd be stuck with huge pointy canines in your mouth and enourmous nails after shifting back. That would be nasty. Same with hair. That would make one very hairy human.

Then again, the hair could fall out, leaving a huge mess of shedding everywhere.

[PariahPoet]

Well, bone material isn't all dead. The marrow and inner tissue is very much alive. All I can think of is somehow it changes density in order to shrink or expand. Fur and hair would have to grow then be shed.
Fingernails- as far as this is concerned, I really don't think it would grow from underneath and split like what seems to be the general concensus. Nail tissue is produced beneath the cuticle, but not beneath the nail itself, so if the nails changed, they would start changing from the base. I think thatthe claw material would grow from the base of the nail and push the existing human nail out in a rapid growth cycle. What you would have in the end is a canine claw with the remainder of a human fingernail still attached to the tip that would have to be broken off by scratching at a hard, abrasive surface.
I don't really think I'm explaining myself well on the claws though. I may have to make a series of sketches to better illustrate what I'm trying to say...

[Scott Gardener]

Bone is continuously broken down and rebuilt by cellular activity. (That's little biological cells, not obsolete American mobile phones.) It's not inconceivable to have the body break down and rebuild bones. Only problem is, normal metabolism takes about 2-3 months to do it. It would take one heck of a super-metabolism to cram that into a minute and a half shifting scene.

But, not to despair. Most of bones' hardness comes from calcium carbonate deposition. That can be dissolved out remarkably quickly by certain acids, or by, say, a specially designed osteolytic enzyme. Bone without it is amazingly soft and pliable. Note also that living bone, while hard, is not as brittle and crack / snap prone as dead, dried bone. Try breaking a live twig and a dead twig, and you'll feel the difference. We're kind of like that.

This is an example of some physiology that werewolves would have to have, that neither humans nor wolves have. But, I believe it's plausible.

[Lupin]

...but in the cases where bones, and hair need to actually get smaller/shorter...change color...split into multiple pieces (the number and configuration of bones in a wolf paw is not the same as that of a human hand, though they share key similarities)...fuse together...or change to a completely different shape which can not be achieved by merely ADDING to what is allready there...

Bones fusing together isn't so odd at least. You had 45 bones in your skull when you were born. You have 29 now.

[Renorei]

Several months ago, I would have tried to come up with a complicated explanation illustrating how the changing of bones, hair, and nails in werewolves was somehow scientifically plausible.

But...I've decided to face the truth...it's not. Though a transformation of sorts might could occur over a long time period, the whole idea of a something going from human to a wolf-like creature in about 5 minutes is ridiculous. Any attempts to explain it scientifically would be sketchy at best.

So, my explanation for such phenomena is, quite simply, MAGIC. You guys can have fun trying to rationalize it all you want, I'm not really worried about it anymore.

In fact, IMO, trying to make werewolves scientifically plausible creatures is almost an insult to them...but, that's just my opinion, and I realize most of you don't share it.

So, have fun with your science! Magic for me!

[Figarou]

I don't think shapeshifting is going to be explained in a werewolf movie.

If it was, it'll be like this.......



Werewolf- *shifts*

human- "How did you do that?"

Werewolf- "Do what?"

human- "Change shape like that."

Werewolf- "I can't tell you."

human- "And why not?"

Werewolf- "To tell you the truth, I don't know. Shift happens."

[Anubis]

I think the bones into some kind of pliable puddy thing then it morphs into a werewolf bone.

Thant's all i got

[Apokryltaros]

I think the bones into some kind of pliable puddy thing then it morphs into a werewolf bone.

Thant's all i got

Then what would keep the werewolf from being crushed by his own body weight?

[Figarou]

I think the bones into some kind of pliable puddy thing then it morphs into a werewolf bone.

Thant's all i got

Then what would keep the werewolf from being crushed by his own body weight?

Good question.

I bet someone will say...

The bones of the werewolf doesn't shift "all at once." It shifts one section at a time.


Ok, thats lame!!


Edit...this is why I think its lame.

If the bones shift in a specific order, then controlled shifting may not be possible.

If you wanted your character to shift while running in human form to a gestalt/wolf running on all fours, it may not be possible if he has to wait for his bones to shift in a certain order.

[Anubis]

Okay, I think I figured out how bones change shape

Around the bones of a werewolf is a layer of flesh. That becomes extremely hard when the werewolf is in TF to support the werewolf's weight when the bone gains a viscosity of modeling clay. As it transforms that layer of flesh holds up the body as well molds the bone into it's propper shape deppending one what form it's taking.

You got any better ideas?

[Renorei]

You got any better ideas?

MAGIC

[Figarou]

You got any better ideas?

MAGIC

I need to make a fairy wolf emoticon waving a magic wand.

[Scott Gardener]

I was thinking for myself a series of metabolic pathways and synchronized histological activity involving osteolytic enzymes, contractile trans-morphological fibers, and modified osteogenesis, coupled with a heavily amplified craniosacral primary respiratory mechanism. But, magic, I'll admit, is a lot easier to explain.

[Figarou]

I was thinking for myself a series of metabolic pathways and synchronized histological activity involving osteolytic enzymes, contractile trans-morphological fibers, and modified osteogenesis, coupled with a heavily amplified craniosacral primary respiratory mechanism. But, magic, I'll admit, is a lot easier to explain.

I bet magic itself can't be explained.

[Renorei]

We need to make it where this forum automatically replaces the word 'magic' with: magic. That would be awesome!!!

[Terastas]

We did talk about the anatomy, but we really didn't cover the skeleton extensively.

The simplest explanation I could imagine would be that a werewolf's bones don't necessarilly "grow," but distort. They would have to distort somehow for the werewolf to have a muzzle, tail, etc, but the only way I could think to explain their seemingly increased size would be that, as they elongate, they hallow out in sections like a bird's bone does. Then when they revert, they become solid again. That's the only way I could imagine how they would become bigger and longer without gaining additional mass -- by exchanging size for density.

[Figarou]

We need to make it where this forum automatically replaces the word 'magic' with: magic. That would be awesome!!!

Or someone can get a little creative and do this.





Meh..needs tweeking.

[Vuldari]

I'll openly admit that, to the best of my knowlage, a 5-minute TF would be physically Impossible in real life. (5-months...maybe...but still painful and physically taxing).

However, I think it is still a relevant thing to consider even if one plans to use as an excuse in the end.

The more careful thought one puts into the process and method in which a werewolves innards would actually need to change, the more plausable and frighteningly realistic it will appear if it follows as many familiar rules as possible.

Even when we don't really have extensive, intricate knowlage and understanding about how some things work, we all do have a sort of sense that we develop that helps us recognise when something is occuring the way it is suppposed to, and when it is not.

Haven't you ever caught yourself looking at something and thinking "Wait...that's not right...something funny is going on here..." ?

Putting as much consideration as possible into physical mechanics will help those hoping to create convincing TF's more..."Convincing".

Sooner or later, when you get down to the base, cellular level mechanics of it, you have to bend science a little bit and say, "Well, let's just pretend this kind of cellular activity is possible"...but once that the smallest possible reality-breaking rule has been broken, if one tries to make all succeeding actions follow logical, natural order from that point on...mimicing familiar biological habits...the end result could quite likely look so real that it would make people wonder if it really COULD happen just like that.

Some methods, like the melting/morphing/molding-clay type metamorphosis, or the bubbling, inflating "Bladder" effects really set off my 'WTF O-METER' ...it just doesn't look natural. ...it doesn't look "REAL".


...to sum up the point of this post...

Even when using "MAGIC" powered TF's , it is still benificial to try to consider the most 'plausable' order and method in which the physical matter would actually be changed...to best support the Arua of ones "Suspension of Disbeleif" concerning the event, as it is presented.

[Morkulv]

I never liked it when nails and hair "pushed out" in TF. Sounds way too sci-fi to me. Just some growth is good enough.

[Raltor]

I think that it's due to the extremely fast metabolism of the WW, everything "grows" at a rapid rate. I still don't get the nails and teeth shrinking...maybe they clip their nails. As for the teeth...maybe when they shift their teeth form an outer casing...and this grows into the WW's teeth, and when they revert back the casing falls off leaving their regular tooth exactly as it was. At least that's what I think

[vrikasatma]

I don't think fast transformation would be impossible but it would be painful and freaky. But we've already nailed that point down...

I'm not as well-versed in physiological science as some of the posters here but here's a suggestion about the bone change:
The inside matrix of bone is very much alive. It is also highly nutritious, so the werewolf virus goes and travels and harbours there. The marrow feeds the blood vessels and that's how the virus is carried through the body.

The hard outer shells of the bones aren't alive; they are functionally rejuvenating on account of the osteopaths and osteoblasts that travel along their surface, continually breaking down and reinstating them. No bone in the body is more than ten years old. This continues throughout life.

So let's say the living part of the bone, carrying the WW virus/DNA, travels by osmosis by way of the bloodstream and through the comparatively softer cartilage that makes up the joints. The WW DNA/virus could have its own symbiotic relationship with super-fast osteopaths and osteoblasts that break down the shells of the bones and rebuild them according to the DNA's instructions. Backwards transformation happens when the host body with its own native osteopaths and osteoblasts reasserts itself...until the next "seizure."

Transformation from the inside out.

[Scott Gardener]

they are functionally rejuvenating on account of the osteopaths and osteoblasts that travel along their surface

Little nitpicking:

I think you mean osteoclasts. Osteopaths are a kind of doctor--physicians with training in manipulation and a holistic philosophy. They're not M.D.s, but they've got all the same training and legal privilages, like surgery and writing prescriptions. I know about osteopaths because I am one.

Anyway, nits aside, you're quite correct about bone physiology.

[vrikasatma]

Little nitpicking:I think you mean osteoclasts.

*PING*
Yes.

Rassafrackin' chemo-brain messin' wit' my cognitives...