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Vuldari wrote:

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Edit: Why did I write all of that as if I thought no one here knew how evolution works? It might be because I'm concieted...or maybe it is that I just enjoy explaining things for some reason. Perhaps I should consider becoming a school teacher.

....Naaaaahhh...Kids give me a migrane.

Well, I know this. Evolution doesn't happen over night.

Figarou wrote:Well, I know this. Evolution doesn't happen over night.

Not usually, no. Most evolutionary changes take thousands, if not millions or billions of years.

However, I've heard a theory that the large brain cavity and exeptional intelligence of the Human race may have evolved primarily through one Pre-Human childs Birth "defect".

As I understand the theory, for some reason, an infants brain stopped developing into its adult form, but instead stayed in it's more youthful configuration longer than usual. As we now know, children learn much faster than adults. Apparently, Pre-Human brains stopped soaking up knowlage very early and matured faster, much like how dogs reach adulthood within only a few years. However, this "theoretical" child took a little longer to grow up, and had a funky swollen noggin compared to his parents. It was a win/lose trade that (if it really happened this way) changed the fate of our entire species. This mutant Pre-Human was weak and helpless for much longer than usual and had to be protected, but in the end, he grew up to be much smarter than his parents.

Now, the transition from Ape-Man, to Human did not all happen with that one birth. However, the event essentially would have set the pieces in motion for the new course of the evolutuion of Mankind with one event, essentially "over night" the course of history changed forever.

Obviously, a creature that previously had NO shapeshifting properties could not spontaniously spawn offspring with full metamorphic capabilities. It would start with something small, like being able stretch or squash itself taller or shorter, and progress from there.

...but then...what I suggested durring my FLU incuded rambling (inspired by Figarou's questions) was that the shapeshifter evolved seperately from the humans and then introduced the metamorphic abilities and Wolf Genetics all ot once in a fateful bit of dumb luck.

...

Edit: What does that have to do with anything?...I have no Idea. I just don't know how to turn my brain off.

Vuldari wrote:

Figarou wrote:Well, I know this. Evolution doesn't happen over night.

Not usually, no. Most evolutionary changes take thousands, if not millions or billions of years.

Actually, no, evolution takes place over generations, not necessarily over years.
Think of all the work and observation done on fruit flies and plants.

Apokryltaros wrote:

Vuldari wrote:

Figarou wrote:Well, I know this. Evolution doesn't happen over night.

Not usually, no. Most evolutionary changes take thousands, if not millions or billions of years.

Actually, no, evolution takes place over generations, not necessarily over years.
Think of all the work and observation done on fruit flies and plants.

True...that is a much more accurate way of stating it.

Once a creature is born, it's genetics are set. It can not "evolve" into something better while it is alive. Evolutionary change only occurs with the next "generation" by the ways it is different from its parents.


Edit: The exact origin of the Werewolf species is really irrelevant anyway, in relation to this topic, as none would have any knowlage of such ancient events. How Werewolves choose to deal with the remains of their kin would be based on their belief sytem, which would be based only on the events of known and recorded history.

*trying to get the thread back on topic*

Vuldari wrote: *trying to get the thread back on topic*

It would be better if this thread was split and a new one created.

"Werewolf religion and beliefs."

Figarou wrote:

Blade-of-the-Moon wrote:
As far as interprepting some wolf behavior as prayer, what about howling ? We only partially understand wolf lingustics , there are times when even the experts can't explain why a wolf howls at the paticular time. Singing is one of the most primitive means of prayer, but if your looking for a kneeling wolf with head bowed it's not likley to happen.

Howling is used for commuication by letting others know of their presence.

That is only one reason we know of. Wolves howl to rally for a hunt, they howl to protect their territory, and they howl at twilight almost on schedule. No expert in any of the books I have on wolves agrees on every reason wolves howl.

Blade-of-the-Moon wrote:

Figarou wrote:

Blade-of-the-Moon wrote:
As far as interprepting some wolf behavior as prayer, what about howling ? We only partially understand wolf lingustics , there are times when even the experts can't explain why a wolf howls at the paticular time. Singing is one of the most primitive means of prayer, but if your looking for a kneeling wolf with head bowed it's not likley to happen.

Howling is used for commuication by letting others know of their presence.

That is only one reason we know of. Wolves howl to rally for a hunt, they howl to protect their territory, and they howl at twilight almost on schedule. No expert in any of the books I have on wolves agrees on every reason wolves howl.

If a bunch wolves had a study on humans, what would they put in their journals? How would they explain humans kissing? I bet each wolf would have something different to say.

I guess it would depend on what kind kissing they witnessed.....

It is true, observing something only leads to so much and though they may agree on what they are seeing they may not agree on the purpose behind it. We can only study the effect of wolves howling, not what is being communicated.

Blade-of-the-Moon wrote:I guess it would depend on what kind kissing they witnessed.....

It is true, observing something only leads to so much and though they may agree on what they are seeing they may not agree on the purpose behind it. We can only study the effect of wolves howling, not what is being communicated.

Yup, Thats why I used kissing as an example.

Imagine a wolf seeing humans mouth to mouth.

What will it be thinking? He may think its our way of passing food from one to the other.

If the woves only watched what was going on with the mouths, maybe, but wolves are more observant than that. They would notice quite a lot more body language going on and, if the kiss is serious they will also pick up scents and changes in body temperature (if they're close enough). They would almost certainly sense arousal.

So, what would cause you to howl? Do you think that there might be any common reasons that would motivate both a human and a wolf to howl?

WolfVanZandt wrote:If the woves only watched what was going on with the mouths, maybe, but wolves are more observant than that. They would notice quite a lot more body language going on and, if the kiss is serious they will also pick up scents and changes in body temperature (if they're close enough). They would almost certainly sense arousal.

OMG!! What have I started!!


Ummm...wolves like pie. yes, pie. Blueberry pie. Mmmmmm!!

Yes, and chicken pot pie also.......well, because it tastes like chicken.

WolfVanZandt wrote:So, what would cause you to howl? Do you think that there might be any common reasons that would motivate both a human and a wolf to howl?

Anger doesn't generally cause wolves to howl, sorrow is another matter. I howled for quite a while after one of my friends passed, it's all I could do and the wolves howled along with me.

Wolves also howl when they are happy, usually before play is initiated or a pack run starts. You could think of that as laughter and cheering.

I remember once, watching a small pack of wolves, at Wolf Park in Indiana, as they began to become motivated to howl.

One of the wolves was the initiator, but the others quickly drew in close. The wolf did not raise its head to the sky. No, its head was kept low. The wolf began to voice. The other wolves moved in closer and also had their heads down low and also began to voice. The multiple of voices, seemed very much to hit a variety of complementary chords. The entire activity seemed very important to the wolves, as they seemed to pour their hearts into it. This continued for some while, until they appeared to be satisfied they had done as much howling as they felt the need or inclination to do.

I was quite impressed.

I don't know if I am anthropomorphising it, but this 'seemed' a spiritual event of some sort for these wolves.

Treads Lightly wrote: Real wolves, or any other animal for that matter do not bury their dead. That is a specifically human thing.

Actually, real wolves often throw earth over food carcasses that they are planning to leave for a while and then come back and eat. If foxes manage to kill extra food during a time of plenty, they often bury small food items, such as mice or birds, in many places and dig them up later when they get hungry. Dogs bury bones that they want to chew later. Also, cats, and some other animals, bury their turds. So, animals certainly know how to bury things, even bodies.

Well, being socially a cross between wolves and humans, I certainly can see them burying or cremating their own expired family members for a whole host of reasons.

1. sentimental
2. pack security from discovery
3. health reasons

On the other hand, I can see them feeling a bit mystical about what has happened to their very persons and perhaps having ritual which may have evolved as intelligent habits and institutions do within societies.

1. a burial service and memorial
2. or something more akin to the native american burials on platforms offering up the dead to the sky spirits.
3. something akin to various human traditions
4. or perhaps the change has affected them so deeply that they have a tradition not duplicated within any known human society.

Also, they may take to hiding their dead. Members of certain tribes in the Southwest, had I believe traditions of stashing their dead in mountain fissures and cracks..

Jamie wrote:

Treads Lightly wrote: Real wolves, or any other animal for that matter do not bury their dead. That is a specifically human thing.

Actually, real wolves often throw earth over food carcasses that they are planning to leave for a while and then come back and eat. If foxes manage to kill extra food during a time of plenty, they often bury small food items, such as mice or birds, in many places and dig them up later when they get hungry. Dogs bury bones that they want to chew later. Also, cats, and some other animals, bury their turds. So, animals certainly know how to bury things, even bodies.

There's a big difference between burying food and burying a family member or mate. The food is meant to be preserved, to be eaten at a later date. Animals generally do not engage in cannibalism. There are a few exceptions but the majority of the animal kingdom will not eat a member of their own species. Wolves have no use for a pack member that has died, therefore they will leave it where it fell. There is no eating or burying involved.

Hollywood always has it revert back to normal. In real death, the muscle can freeze in that postion. Eyes can be open, hands could still be holding on to something, ETC. So when in werewolf form, I say your still a werewolf in death. Your frozen in that state. If that werewolf died in the city, then the others needs to find it and get it out quick before the humans see it.

i would have to agree. i hate in in movies when the they revert back to human form. it kind'a takes all the fun out of it.

I prefer that it stays however it is upon death.

If keeping the secret is a challenge, so much more for the storyteller to work with.

Besides, if the WW community cannot clean it up.

Do you think the authorities would want it common knowledge ? Consider all the things they don't reveal now, just because they don't want to alarm the public.

garouda wrote:I prefer that it stays however it is upon death.

If keeping the secret is a challenge, so much more for the storyteller to work with.

Besides, if the WW community cannot clean it up.

Do you think the authorities would want it common knowledge ? Consider all the things they don't reveal now, just because they don't want to alarm the public.

"Why not tell 'em? People are smart, they can handle it."

"No, no... A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."

Gotta love MiB...

ChaosWolf wrote:

garouda wrote:I prefer that it stays however it is upon death.

If keeping the secret is a challenge, so much more for the storyteller to work with.

Besides, if the WW community cannot clean it up.

Do you think the authorities would want it common knowledge ? Consider all the things they don't reveal now, just because they don't want to alarm the public.

"Why not tell 'em? People are smart, they can handle it."

"No, no... A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals, and you know it."

Gotta love MiB...

In some respects people are smart enough.

But

Folks in positions to make such decisions in government, I suspect don't always agree.