Reproductive complications

[Kzinistzerg]

Female humans are the only animals to have periods. essentially, throughout the month the lining builds up and then leaks out at the end- so what exactly happens when she shifts into wolf?

[Trinity]

No not entirely.

My aunt raised purebreed german shepards, adn she had to et doggie diapers every tiem she came into heat. Why? She bled.

Cats do too.

Pet stores catually have pet diapers for when animasl go into heat. No this is not an attempt of giving th enaimals a "barrier method" to protect against sex.., ist there for absorbency issues. ;)

The biological systen of a mammal is still simailr enough to each other to be comparable. Teh process is the same as far as I understand it. We just have a more noticable blood flow.

[Black Shuck]

I thought other animals had periods, but it was only once a year instead of once month. Maybe female werewolves don't go through menstration as often. They only go through 6 times or something.

[Trinity]

there has been somethign pointed out in other threads, that the idea is of a human-based werewolf and not a true hybrid.

PLaying devils Advocate here, I just felt it neccessary to point that out.

It could be that while in wolf form, you have teh same cycles that humans do.

[Kzinistzerg]

I remember reading that humans have a really unique rerooductive system. but nonethe;less, it seems like it might be somehtign to take into accounmt.

[Black Shuck]

My reasoning was that while you're still human, you're also a little bit wolf. I don't rememver how many times a year my dog went into heat, but I figured maybe it'd kinda compromise between the two. I was gonna with 4 periods a year, but I thought that was too few for being only a little bit wolf, so I upped it to six so it only happens only 56 days instead of the usual 28. I can't come up with anything better than that, although I think in wolf or gestalt the bleeding would be really unnoticeable, like with other animals.

[Kzinistzerg]

yeah, even ifit was fgarden-hose i nhuman form, the way it's shaped in wolf form would probably tend to keep it in.

[Renorei]

I think werewolves should have periods less often.

Honestly, there's really no scientific way to decide this. Nothing currently in nature can freely morph between one of three forms that fast, so we would have nothing to base our decision on.

So I think it all comes down to preference. And I would prefer that they have periods less often. We have already decided not to give werewolves many of the perks that legend and hollywood have given them, which is ok. But of course, they still need perks. As a female, having periods less often would be a HUGE perk while at the same time, not actually giving werewolves any additional powers that are completely illogical. Furthermore, nobody here can really say with certainty that werewolves wouldn't have periods less often, so I say go for it! 4-6 periods a year with reduced bleeding! YAY!

[Merrypaws]

I've noticed that my periods sort of "taper off" towards mid winter. Sometimes they stop coming completely around december and begin again in spring.
The same could apply to werewolves.

[Trinity]

*ponders*

Human reporductive systems is set up so that we can have as many breedings a year as possible. One of the ideas for this, is perhaps -because- we can't have multuple births regularly ( like litters ), and that our childern are born pretty much completely helpless.

Horses retain their young longer, and withint an hour or so most foal s( if not right away ) can stand on their feet and run beside their dam. Many other animals are the same.

Even wolf puppies, though born helpless, don't have long before they are completely functional adults.

The idea of having multiple births is a population control, used by animals that typicall have a very high Mortality rate.

A human female can become imprenated almost imeidatly after giving birth. This was a benefit years ago when babbies sometimes didn't live past a couple of months. Human society as it is supports our repordutive cycles ( and vice versus ), allowing us time to raise our young in a mostly danger-free enviroment.


Enviromental factors alos kick in, in that we, as humans, can raise our young in almost any time during the year. No matter the season, we have the baility to make sure our young thrive. Wolves don't have that luxary, and have higher mortality rates amoung the litters born to early or too late in a givne year.

Thier breeding cycles reflect this. As does their internal biology.

In another thread there was mention of a possibl true hybrid option. That the virus changes internal organs in order to better sustain the change. One idea that was suggested is that the internal structures of a human morph into a hybrid form.

The single uterus becomes slightly horned. This would effectively reduce the amount of bleeding.

Then the thought is that, if this is such then perhaps werewolves can have multiple litters of cubs ( or maybe a regular hit of twins or triplets for a better compromise ).

If so then they wouldn't have to "go into season" as often.


But then other werewolve around the female would notice more. ;) Because biloogically ( logistically ) speaking, they'd HAVE to notice more, or they miss out on a breeding period ( pun intended heh ).

Evenry creature is tuned into breeding. Its in our nature as living breathing things. Its how we make sure our genes pass on, and is far more important to LIFE in general then what human society has currently decided.

I personally don't see having fewer periods as a benefit. But then I guess I'm one of the few who is comfortable with my cycles, my periods, my aches and pains, and my mood swings. For me its a natural thing that isn't "bad" as many people like to see it as. Its a part of me and what makes me female.


BUT, I can see how it would be more logistically 'accurate'.., especially if we used the above model. ;) hehe

[Kzinistzerg]

I also remembner reading that the reason humans have such a weird reproductive cycle is that mating is not just "we need children!"- for humans it is wdely considered a 'fun' activity as well. if our systems were set up like other, ating would almost guarantee a child, but plainly that is not the case for humansa

[Wolfhanyou]

I also remembner reading that the reason humans have such a weird reproductive cycle is that mating is not just "we need children!"- for humans it is wdely considered a 'fun' activity as well. if our systems were set up like other, ating would almost guarantee a child, but plainly that is not the case for humansa

Which makes me bring up the Bonobo, since if I remember correctly they are the only other primate that have sex for pleasure. I know this probably has no reference at all to werewolves, but I was thinking. Since the bonobo is an animal, shall we consider their reproductive cycle as well as the wolf's? Since the bonobo is a close relative of humans, but is an animal, we could possiably better debate the reproductive cycle of a werewolf? Or am I making this too complicated and just brought in an unnessessary element to the conversation?

[Scott Gardener]

Not intended as a criticism of the above post--more of a general commentary. Bear with me; I promise to keep it relevant.

I consider the assumption that humans are the only or one of the only animals that derive pleasure from mating to be beyond arrogant. There's no evidence to support this, and it runs counter to intuition. The human mating urge is one of the very symbols of the fact that we are animals.

The lack of studies one way or the other is based in part on the stubborn refusal of human science to acknowledge that other animals have emotions and feelings. Animal psychology as a field focuses very heavily on behaviorism and virtually ignores or even actively discourages applying human concepts like the subconscious.

Thankfully, a person named Temple Grandin, who has autism but not enough to prevent developing skills enough to get a Ph.D., has made some headway.

http://www.grandin.com/references/thinking.animals.html

She's suggested that autism is a mammalian norm, and that the human mindset as we know it emerged from it. This actually gives some credence to the idea that human consciousness is unique, rather than simply another animal with a bigger hard drive and more RAM, so I'll have to yield some of my own dogmas to her theory. Still, it also strengthens the human ties to other animals. And, remember, some people with autism are savant geniuses, even if it's sometimes only at figuring out that the Norman invasion of 1066 started on a Wednesday.

But, getting back to menses:

Wolf season generally falls in mid-January through February. (Happy Valentine's Day!) I would expect with the idea of delayed and tapering menses for the cycle to restart in March, pretty much as MerryPaws suggested, and indeed curiously enough actually experiences. (Not the first example of an odd coincidence around here. Therians in particular seem to attract spooky wolf parallels.)

[Wolfhanyou]

Took me a few re-reads but I think I get it. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was a pompous a**. But I ment that, to my knowladge, very few animals mate outside of their mating season for anything other than the intent to have kids, though I'm sure that they deprive some sort of pleasure from the act. But... ah, well. I didn't do any proper research and merely wrote off the top of my head. Well, this shows me what's what, eh?

[Scott Gardener]

No, you didn't sound pompous at all. Note my disclaimer; I was not intending to criticize your post, just the notions that lead you, acting in good faith on screwy source knowledge, to believe it.

And, it's not that you didn't do the research. It's that until lately, NO ONE has done the research, including all the scientists who get paid to do it--and not just in the sense of Googling or Encyclopoeaedia Britannica. They just published away about how uninterested most mammals are in sex, and most people trust them, because they're published. At least, when I make assumptions, it's about werewolves, which are extrapolated hypothetical constructs to begin with.

[Trinity]

With the idea of how the virus interacts with the body, i can say forst hand that though I'm a regular bleeder, very steady cycle and all, that when I am sick or extremely stressed.., it does indeed affect my cycles.

So if this virus is running ramapnt in the system, ther eis another parralell that can be sued for short menses during the summer months.., possibly even a lesser sex drive. heh.

[SnowWalker]

I've noticed that my periods sort of "taper off" towards mid winter. Sometimes they stop coming completely around december and begin again in spring.
The same could apply to werewolves.

How odd... I have kinda the same problem! I hardly get periods in Winter... but this summer I've been bleeding like crazy. (then again, I noticed one time when I was on a swim team that I had NO periods for a whole summer -- but I suppose that was because I was constantly in the water and I believe that has some effect on menstruation)

As far as werewolves go, I don't know why we all get so riled up about these odd facts. I'm sure not every single little thing will be pointed out in an hour and a half/2 hour movie. I say their menstruation cycles would be the same as a normal human being, but would not affect them whilst in their Gestalt/Wolf form.

*shrug*
~Snowy

[Merrypaws]

As far as werewolves go, I don't know why we all get so riled up about these odd facts. I'm sure not every single little thing will be pointed out in an hour and a half/2 hour movie. I say their menstruation cycles would be the same as a normal human being, but would not affect them whilst in their Gestalt/Wolf form.

It's the curiosity factor, love. We humans just can't help but wonder about all meaningless details.
But it certainly gives opportunity for some interesting debates.

[Jamie]

To my mind, there are several ways that this aspect of female werewolves could be handled:

1) The period is when the lining of the uterus is shed. What does this mean? It means that dead/dying tissue is slowly leaking out through a rather small hole (the cervix). Most of this lining is shed at the very beginning of the period, but it takes some time for all of it to leak out, that is why the stuff near the end is often brownish/black and smells a bit rotten- it is old blood. In the 70s, some women dealt with their periods by using a special vaccuum that sucked out all this matter at the beginning of the period, so that they had periods lasting one day or less. This was discontinued because it was thought to harm the uterus and make it less suitable for future pregnancies.
In werewolves, I could easily imagine that the transformation would use this shed lining as material and/or fuel. Thus, you would have a werewolf who went though cycles but only bled until the first transformation. If she transformed on the first day of her period, it would be done right then (even though the purely hormonal aspects of having your period would likely last another few days). I view this as possibly being linked to the regeneration ability, and almost certainly linked to the presumed ability to convert all organic matter inside the body into energy and/or matter for the new form. For example, if a werewolf did not have the ability to use up all organic matter inside the body during a transformation, then werewolves would always lose bowel control during a transformation and eject fecal matter, because wolf intestines have a much smaller cubic volume than human intestines. This would be the same kind of principle, but applied to dead organic matter elsewhere inside the human body.

2) This is the same view that I usually see expressed in novels, and that I mostly see in this thread. Female werewolves would have fewer cycles per year, generally with less bleeding, and bleeding would probably not be noticable during the gestalt form or full wolf form.

3) In this third view, females werewolves switch entirely to a lupine reproductive cycle. They would go into "heat" once a year, and the menstrual cycle would shut down, being replaced by the yearly lupine heat cycle. In order to understand what this would mean, first you have to look at the canine reproductive cycle as compared to the human reproductive cycle.
Contrary to what others have said here (you've been working from bad information sources, so I don't blame you personally), primates are the only animals to have a menstrual cycle. Other female animals do sometimes bleed from "there", but it is for different reasons than humans and primates do. For example, humans bleed at the time in the cycle when they are least likely to get pregnant, but dogs and wolves bleed during the time when they are most likely to get pregnant, when they are in heat.
The reasons are also different. Humans bleed because they are shedding the lining to the uterus. Dogs and wolves bleed because the lining of the vagina becomes super-sensitive and aroused for several weeks, in a state of physical arousal that causes these tissues to be engorged with blood, like human male organs in a state of excitement, but less noticable because they don't suddenly become larger.
Sustaining this blood-engorged state for a long time causes a little blood to migrate through the thin tissues of the vaginal lining through osmosis to stain the mucus of the vaginal passage. This is why blood comes out, and this is also why it is much smaller in volume and generally less noticable (the other reason it is less noticable is because female animals periodically clean it off).
The longer that an animal stays in heat, the more likely it is that this heat-blood will become visible. Therefore, animals that stay in heat continually until they become pregnant, but are kept away from males to prevent this from happening, are more likely to show this blood. Heat-blood is more prevalent in dogs than in any other domestic animal.
There are two other reasons why female animals might bleed "there". Most female animals bleed after giving birth (because they actually are shedding the lining of the uterus at this time, and sometimes because there have been internal tears). In addition, some female animals bleed after sex because the male has been rough with them (this is required in some animals for ovulation, so it is not as bad as it sounds).
Female animals who go into heat, fail to become pregnant, and then go out of heat rarely shed the lining of their uterus for the simple reason that, in most animals, the uterus lining does not develop until the sperm and egg unite (and then, it develops very fast!). In fact, a number of female animals, such as cats, don't even ovulate until they have sex. Other than primates, most animals avoid going through reproductive stages until they are necessary.
Okay, so what would this third view mean for female werewolves who entirely took on a lupine reproductive cycle? It would mean no more periods at all. Instead of human periods, they would experience heat-blood once a year, it would barely be noticable, but it would continue into gestalt form and wolf form. Depending on how much the lupine sex drive affected their human minds, they might be sexually frigid towards males except when in heat, or they might have a normal sex drive through most of the year, with a hyper sex drive when in heat.
Also, after heat, all wolves become either pregnant or pseudo-pregnant. Pseudo-pregnant females experience the hormonal symptoms of pregnancy, and will start lactating if given cubs to nurse. So you might expect a female werewolf to have crazy hormonal swings in the spring, lots of cravings for weird food, and have no way to tell whether she is really pregnant or not for several months (since, if standard pregnancy tests even worked with werewolves, they would probably say "yes" since she would be full of pregnancy hormones).

Of these three ideas, I like #1 the best, #2 the second best, and #3 the worst. It would also be possible that female werewolves might mix and match characteristics from more than one of the above, such as having #1 with some aspects from #2.
I think that every treatment of this problem that I've seen basically falls into one of the above ideas, but if you have some radically different idea about how it could be, feel free to add a #4.

[Scott Gardener]

Thanks for the physiology clarification; I didn't know that! I might have to go back and rethink some of my own werewolf physiology elements accordingly.

If wolves don't have menses per se, and the bleeding comes from something that doesn't happen in humans, that a good healing system could prevent, then werewolf women could conceivably have no discernable period at all.

Given how many women dislike menses in this particular culture, that's one more thing that might make lycanthropy appealing to people who have no interest in shapeshifting per se.

As a plot device, one has to be careful with that, as improved healing and in some interpretations longevity already add to the "woe is me, I'm super" problem, in which so many advantages and so few disadvantages undermine the sense of angst that we're supposed to feel for the characters who are less than satisfied with their empowerment. (Not that any of us here feel that way... http://www.calypso-blue.com/werewolf/vi ... 2&start=65)

[ChaosWolf]

In the 'universe' my 'ideal werewolf' exists in, the breakdown is rather simple. there is no bleeding, for similar reasons as point #1 in the above item, but with aspects of #2... hormonal/emotional surges, a semi-annual increase in libido, etc.

Basically, they don't have a period every month, but they do get irritable, emotionally chaotic, and somewhat easily aroused about three or four times a year.

[mielikkishunt]

Boards resident doggy breeder here.

The human menstraul cycle's physical appearance and any other organism(as far as I know) are two totally different thing.

Our cycle is to shed the inner lining of the uterus, to clean out the garbage for the next month of fertile time, while a dog spoting shows it's getting close to the time where she'll accept a mate. Canines(or most mammals) normally do not have sex any other time of the year except during a short window span(the last breeding I did was 10 days ago, the b**** accepted the male for four 'ties' over a four day period). A canine is only fertile every 6-18 months depending on the individual b****.

I have a human character in one story joke that humans gave up the ease of child birth for the joy of sex. . .my last litter was 7 puppies whelped in a 6 hour period, how many woman enjoy labor that lasts that little?


My 'species' of weres have a cycle. . .and low viability of newborns, which has resulted with them being on deaths door as a species. .that's another concept. .not sure what human infant mortality rate is, but in dogs, 1 out of 10 pups die even in the most sterile environments, and if I remember in wolves, 1 pup out of a litter(the odds may be greater. .cant' remember exactly) make it to adulthood.

[mielikkishunt]

*ponders*

Horses retain their young longer, and withint an hour or so most foal s( if not right away ) can stand on their feet and run beside their dam. Many other animals are the same

In actuallity, this is a trait that's only viable for landborn herbivores. From what I've been able to find, all landborn predators(water/ocean born animals are a totally different phenomena) are born helpless.

Even wolf puppies, though born helpless, don't have long before they are completely functional adults..

True, that they quickly grow up, but it takes awhile to learn how to hunt
and hunt affectively.

The single uterus becomes slightly horned. This would effectively reduce the amount of bleeding.

I'm not sure where you're going here, both a human and a wolf/canine (and a cat and a horse, and probably about any other mammal ) are all horned. .so what do you mean 'slightly horned?"

Then the thought is that, if this is such then perhaps werewolves can have multiple litters of cubs ( or maybe a regular hit of twins or triplets for a better compromise ).

again, am confused. . .a human can have multiple 'litters' too. Why they'd wanna have a dozen screaming brats, who knows ;)

[mielikkishunt]

As far as werewolves go, I don't know why we all get so riled up about these odd facts. I'm sure not every single little thing will be pointed out in an hour and a half/2 hour movie. I say their menstruation cycles would be the same as a normal human being, but would not affect them whilst in their Gestalt/Wolf form.

Hmm, yeah it would affect them. .think of the way a dog acts around a woman on her period. . I can see every male Gestalt ending up in a "RUmble" cuz the b**** gestalt has her 'aunt in town'

[outwarddoodles]

I think because they are 'human based' that the cycles would stay the same, though I would love for them not too, I just think it would be as it is. The Lycanthropy virus is going to have some 'fill in the blanks', with the obvious one being gender, no gender changing thankyou.

I just don't see why the reproductive cycles are going to have to change, nor should the parts change much. I'd think the female parts are just going to have to stay the same during shifts and always, while I'm guessing the male parts are going to change a bit. Yet I don't think at all that eggs and sperm shall change. The newly changed werewolf's cycle may just change, but mainly because of their new life style and posibly stress that could effect the poor person.

I just don't see a werewolf sticking a tampon up there (or as my freinds say 'sticking it in the microwave'.), so just for our sakes I wouldn't mind saying the werewolf stops bleeding when shifted into another form. I just don't like imagining a werewolf during her period coming out heavily as a human's can, so that would just be comething I like, maybe not something compleatly resonable.