Werewolf Venom

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:22 am

Had this interesting idea I thought I would bounce off you folks.

Now picture that in some way or another the werewolf is born a werewolf, wether it be through normal biology or etherial reincarnation or what not, in any case they only exist these ways.
Now lets imagine that it has a neural toxin venom. Venom in mammals is not unheard of. this toxin is designed to confuse and disorientate the prey so that should it get away the werewolf can track it down by scent (wolves can track the same animal for days) this toxin is a hallucinigen that causes madness. In lower animals with weaker brain functions this would only be disorientation and a drunken like behavior but humans with their myths and imagination could come to believe the bite is makeing them a werewolf so become homicidal lunatics. Until that day they are either caught by the authorities or the werewolf that bit them tracks them down and eats them.

However if this is the case how would we explaine the werewolf not quikly tracking down and devouring these victims who go off and think they are werewolves?
for the sake of this story idea based on classical werewolf tales and trials. I say the natural werewolf is shy of human habitations and tends to avoid them, or bit the person much like how a shark does because it heard something clumsy in the woods and lunged before checking to see what it was and ended up biteing a person, and thanks to people tasting to a werewolf the way anchovies taste to most people (a required taste) the average werewolf lets them go.
and thus we end up with the normal human gone crazy from the mind altering drug of a werewolf's venom.

Moon_Lover · Post by **Moon_Lover** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:42 am

I think you're thinking of "acquired", but I agree, overall.

Miragh · Post by **Miragh** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:50 am

Khuwwa · Post by **Khuwwa** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:52 am

That's an interesting idea. I like the part about the anchovies!

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 4:00 pm

Well aside from mis-identifying a human for a deer, yes I can see alot of other reasons for a person to get but but not killed.

To add to those, hit by a car, person gets out thinking they killed a dog or something and the winded werewolf bites the person as they lean down to examine the beast as the werewolf while startled instinctivly bites and runs.

On mis-identified victim I was thinking like the wind is blowing towards the human but the human russles some leaves near the werewolf and it jumps them with out inspecting the sound out properly first, like a pup still learning to hunt.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:06 pm

Werewolf "venom" strikes me as an unneccesary thing. For one, they're wolf + men, not Wolf + men + snakes, and for another, there's plenty of reasons why people have thought up of WWs in the past and why they've since faded into obscurity. *shrug*

I mean, hell, werewolves in myth didn't orignally have their infamous infectious bite. That got ripped off from vampires somewhere along the line.

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:00 am

Aki wrote:Werewolf "venom" strikes me as an unneccesary thing. For one, they're wolf + men, not Wolf + men + snakes, and for another, there's plenty of reasons why people have thought up of WWs in the past and why they've since faded into obscurity. *shrug*

I mean, hell, werewolves in myth didn't orignally have their infamous infectious bite. That got ripped off from vampires somewhere along the line.

Hollywood did it.

I had this funny thought about werewolf venom from VanHelsing, they kept going on about Werewolf venom causing the transformation, and I kept thinking, why would a "venom" do that? venoms are used to catch and kill prey not turn them into rivals....and I thought instantly about the madness Lycanthropy and combined the two thoughts.

First I give werewolves wishbones and now venom....next webbed feet...wait that's actually possible...see labrador. Dogs being genetically identical to wolves and all. so the possibility is there for web footed werewolves. Now that would be freaky.

Kirk Hammett · Post by **Kirk Hammett** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:18 am

Venom in mammals is not unheard of.

Australia's monotremes; the platypus and the echidna although they are less closely related to wolves than we are.

It could be an idea. I see the holes in it, which you've tried to fix, I hate trying to fix holes in stories, I get frustrated, and thats when I say 'heh it was just magic'

neoritter · Post by **neoritter** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 11:44 pm

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:23 am

neoritter wrote:no.

wanna give reasons. We can't read your mind you know.

Opinions are respected.
But I only respect opinions that last longer than one word.

Doruk Golcu · Post by **Doruk Golcu** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:23 am

I think wolves have 'webbed' feet actually, to facilitate running on soft snow.

As for the venom, I have a good name for this type of saliva-infected condition with the said symptoms, lets call it 'rabies'!

Actually, I don't dislike the idea... hmmmm... maybe 'werewolf' itself is just a human-level intelligence subspecies of wolf (therefore people who observed its unusually intelligent behavior assumed it was a man taken the shape of a wolf, think Wolfen (novel, not movie)), and is prone to being a carrier of rabies.... Hmmmmm, that could work...

neoritter · Post by **neoritter** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 10:07 am

The idea that werewolves could have venomous properties akin to a Komodo Dragon is going too far off the beaten trail. There would be no basis with which the venom would be produced, seeing that wolves don't possess said venom and humans do not either. Remember you can't make matter out of nothing. These organs that produce a venom can't just appear out of no where.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 8:57 pm

Rhuen wrote:
Aki wrote:Werewolf "venom" strikes me as an unneccesary thing. For one, they're wolf + men, not Wolf + men + snakes, and for another, there's plenty of reasons why people have thought up of WWs in the past and why they've since faded into obscurity. *shrug*

I mean, hell, werewolves in myth didn't orignally have their infamous infectious bite. That got ripped off from vampires somewhere along the line.
Hollywood did it.

I had this funny thought about werewolf venom from VanHelsing, they kept going on about Werewolf venom causing the transformation, and I kept thinking, why would a "venom" do that? venoms are used to catch and kill prey not turn them into rivals....and I thought instantly about the madness Lycanthropy and combined the two thoughts.

First I give werewolves wishbones and now venom....next webbed feet...wait that's actually possible...see labrador. Dogs being genetically identical to wolves and all. so the possibility is there for web footed werewolves. Now that would be freaky.

Hollywood's responsible for lots of silly stuff.

Like backwards-bending knees.

Doruk Golcu wrote:I think wolves have 'webbed' feet actually, to facilitate running on soft snow.

Nah. They just have wide paws.

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 2:22 am

neoritter wrote:The idea that werewolves could have venomous properties akin to a Komodo Dragon is going too far off the beaten trail. There would be no basis with which the venom would be produced, seeing that wolves don't possess said venom and humans do not either. Remember you can't make matter out of nothing. These organs that produce a venom can't just appear out of no where.

Venom is a specialized toxic saliva.
The bite that can shift a person (DNA altering properties) is also not present in either species. So if one type of werewolf can alter DNA its actaully less of a stretch to have one that can cause madness with its bite.

Maybe not a venom, but rather altered bacteria (like the Komodo Dragon has) the transformation turns a human into a wolf creature, what does it do to the other organisms present in the human body?
Maybe the bacteria found in the mouth could be altered as a side effect to be insanity inducing hallucinigen bacteria.

Kzinistzerg · Post by **Kzinistzerg** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:03 am

Neh, i dislike werewolf venom. it sounds too hollywood cheezy to me. A virus that does it, but has side effects during the incubation that happens to be in the mouth, okay. venom? NO.

neoritter · Post by **neoritter** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:17 pm

Rhuen wrote: Venom is a specialized toxic saliva.
The bite that can shift a person (DNA altering properties) is also not present in either species. So if one type of werewolf can alter DNA its actaully less of a stretch to have one that can cause madness with its bite.

Maybe not a venom, but rather altered bacteria (like the Komodo Dragon has) the transformation turns a human into a wolf creature, what does it do to the other organisms present in the human body?
Maybe the bacteria found in the mouth could be altered as a side effect to be insanity inducing hallucinigen bacteria.

The venom you are talking about is simply not plausible. For one neither wolf or human have it. Also, wolves attack in packs, that idea alone would render the creation of a venom unneccessary. And last if we are trying to explain why humans think after being bitten they become werewolves we can look to an already existing disease. Rabies. The symptoms of rabies are: fever above 105 degrees Fahrenheit (40.5 degrees Celsius), headache, and general malaise, twitching around the animal bite, agitation, and hallucinations.
So if anything a werewolf may be carrying rabies. The idea of a venom is not possible simply because there is not need for it.

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 1:14 am

Rhuen wrote:
neoritter wrote:The idea that werewolves could have venomous properties akin to a Komodo Dragon is going too far off the beaten trail. There would be no basis with which the venom would be produced, seeing that wolves don't possess said venom and humans do not either. Remember you can't make matter out of nothing. These organs that produce a venom can't just appear out of no where.
Venom is a specialized toxic saliva.
The bite that can shift a person (DNA altering properties) is also not present in either species. So if one type of werewolf can alter DNA its actaully less of a stretch to have one that can cause madness with its bite.

Maybe not a venom, but rather altered bacteria (like the Komodo Dragon has) the transformation turns a human into a wolf creature, what does it do to the other organisms present in the human body?
Maybe the bacteria found in the mouth could be altered as a side effect to be insanity inducing hallucinigen bacteria.

bolded for new thought to be more presented.
venom was the wrong word, psycho-active bacteria is what I meant.

neoritter · Post by **neoritter** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:15 am

That changes things a bit. And now we have a new discussion. And I still say no to the idea, rabies is a good substitute and it already exists.

Kzinistzerg · Post by **Kzinistzerg** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:54 pm

Yah, rabies works. make them more susceptible? Or maybe it lasts longer?

Doruk Golcu · Post by **Doruk Golcu** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 10:05 pm

Last longer than what? Rabies is pretty much certain death unless treated...

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 11:21 pm

neoritter wrote:That changes things a bit. And now we have a new discussion. And I still say no to the idea, rabies is a good substitute and it already exists.

true, but I would want something more symbiotic with the werewolf.

Like the bacteria in the Komodo Dragon. the bacteria for some as yet unknown reason (physical reason unknown) does not kill the lizard. But the bacteria is carried in their saliva. It is slopped into wounds of prey, if the animal escapes the bacteria multiplies and kills the animal, the bacteria is reinjested by the lizards when they eat the dead animal and this carried to infect other animals.

Something like this is not beyond mammalian capabilites and would be something a werewolf could have as a trump card should it go up-against larger or more powerful than normal prey. After all if its to be the perfect predator it needs to cover all the killing strategies.

neoritter · Post by **neoritter** » Mon Oct 16, 2006 4:05 pm

Rhuen wrote: Like the bacteria in the Komodo Dragon. the bacteria for some as yet unknown reason (physical reason unknown) does not kill the lizard. But the bacteria is carried in their saliva. It is slopped into wounds of prey, if the animal escapes the bacteria multiplies and kills the animal, the bacteria is reinjested by the lizards when they eat the dead animal and this carried to infect other animals.

There plenty of physical reasons, you just don't know them. Now I am not sure if its these are the correct ones but they apply to other animals such as a vulture. Vultures have extremely acidic stomach acid that kills any bacteria that enters their system. I'm sure you could gather that since a vulture is a scavenger it eats rotten or decaying meat, that can contain some pretty nasty bacteria. From that I would say that a Komodo Dragon has equally acidic stomach acid. Another possiblity is much simpler. Built up immunity. The Komodo Dragon through adaptation has developed an immunity to the bacteria, just like humans and any other animal can develop. Since immunities are passed on from parent to offspring there is no need to reestablish an immunity to the bacteria.

We can even further and say that the bacteria is in a symbiotic relationship with the Komodo. The Komodo uses the bacteria in its saliva to kill prey and subsequently eat said prey, while the bacteria gets a perfect breeding ground in the Komodo's prey.

All this actually brings to mind a new thought. A bacterium like the one presented for the werewolf might not actually work. Changing cell structure might hinder an afflicted human the ability to properly acquire an immunity to the bacteria. Also where would this bacteria go when the person transforms back into a human? Kissing, sharing a drink, etc. could all possibly kill a regular human. Also, if we substitute rabies as the disease of choice, we run into another problem. Animals infected by rabies do eventually die by it.

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 1:59 am

Well the bacteria would need to only be present in the werewolf that stays a werewolf, the point of the bacteria is that it causes madness in the prey, not the werewolf. Assuming that the shapeshifter is not a "cursed" human but rather an entirely different creature.

as for Komodo dragon immunity I was semi-quoting a documentary on the animal. It has bloody gums and even if it bites and bleeds another komodo the bacteria wont kill them.

As for why it would need this. For the story world I am working on (think I forgot to mention I was playing around with this idea for a breed of werewolf amongst many breeds of werewolf)

The Breed is the Irish Werewolf, a werewolf of equal mass transformation, where the transformed state is full wolf, with red hair and green eyes, except they barely exceed 140 pounds and live in very small family groups. So have adapted this unique method for takeing down prey. They find a large animal, bite it, and wait for it to go mad and wander off and get its self killed or is too insane to resist being eaten. imagine a deer going crazy and picking a fight with an oak tree and knocking its self out, being the basically desired effect of the infectious bite.

neoritter · Post by **neoritter** » Tue Oct 17, 2006 9:25 am

Rhuen wrote:Well the bacteria would need to only be present in the werewolf that stays a werewolf, the point of the bacteria is that it causes madness in the prey, not the werewolf. Assuming that the shapeshifter is not a "cursed" human but rather an entirely different creature.

Still haven't answered the problem.

as for Komodo dragon immunity I was semi-quoting a documentary on the animal. It has bloody gums and even if it bites and bleeds another komodo the bacteria wont kill them.

Maybe because other komodo dragons have the bacteria in their saliva and hence are immune too.

The Breed is the Irish Werewolf, a werewolf of equal mass transformation, where the transformed state is full wolf, with red hair and green eyes, except they barely exceed 140 pounds and live in very small family groups. So have adapted this unique method for takeing down prey. They find a large animal, bite it, and wait for it to go mad and wander off and get its self killed or is too insane to resist being eaten. imagine a deer going crazy and picking a fight with an oak tree and knocking its self out, being the basically desired effect of the infectious bite.

Now you are going to insult the Irish. This made up breed of werewolf should be called a Portugese Werewolf, because in the Portugese myths, the werewolves are weak and pitiful.

Rhuen · Post by **Rhuen** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:21 am

On the Komodo dragon thing, you honestly can't know, I don't know, and the experts don't know why they are immune. That's all there is to it for you or me.

I have never payed much attention to Portugal and its myths so I may have missed those. For Europe I had several ugly goblin like monsters that no one would even think to call a werewolf and a few Lycian werewolf descendents.
I made the Irish werewolf small for no real reason other than I needed some small breed that uses poison bites, so arbitarily picked Ireland, mostly because I like the red hair thing and thought it would look different especially on a smaller breed of werewolf. But like with dog breeds, the location name is just a name. Origin maybe only.
After all there are more Irish people in the US than in Ireland, same for Poland and many other countries in Europe.

This would be just one breed that has a bacterial infectious bite, no known reason why they have it, or how it works. Just one of those mysteries of nature. Like the Komodo Dragon's bacteria or the cat scratch fever thing.
A small weak werewolf is the best candidate to need this for living in a world where the prey is much larger and stronger, and as descendents of a mystical breed the source of any strange features like this bacteria can just be blamed on that.

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