This is madness...

DarkShadow · Post by **DarkShadow** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:18 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5AH-xgz ... sorryagain

BSL ( breed- specific legeslation) needs to be stopped. These animal's behavior reflects on how the owners train them. I was so upset when I saw this.

Ive known all kinds of "vicious" dogs, and they are the sweetest things!

This insanity MUST be stopped

Set · Post by **Set** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:44 pm

I've heard about this. It's one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard in my life. Banning an entire breed, just because you don't like them? Stupid. I had a dog that most class as a "dangerous" breed, half rottweiler, and she was nothing but a big softie. That dog wouldn't bite someone even if they wanted her to.

I hate the ignortant jackasses who come up with this s***. These people need to be slapped. In case you can't tell, this is something that rubs me the wrong way. I'd have quite a bit to say to those politicians. No moron in a suit is ever going to take one of my animals away from me.

ravaged_warrior · Post by **ravaged_warrior** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 9:52 pm

I once had a rottweiler, mastiff, pit bull mix. She was a very nice dog.

PariahPoet · Post by **PariahPoet** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:09 pm

Sorry, but I agree with the laws. Not because I think the breeds are dangerous, but because as long as people breed pits, rotties, dobermans, and the like, people will get them for the wrong reason. Nearly all of the pits bred in my area are bought by people who either fight them or use them as a status symbol and don't love them or take care of them.
Every dog deserves to be loved, and it's a sad fact that most of these dogs aren't- and it's not through any fault of their own, they are usually wonderful animals, but people don't care. I'm not worried about the dogs being viscious, I'm worried about innocent puppies going to abusive and neglectful homes.

Other breeds don't have as big a problem with bad owners, so I'd rather see the breed banned to hopefully cut down on abused dogs.

PariahPoet · Post by **PariahPoet** » Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:37 pm

Just to put my last post in perspective, my last dog Sally was part pit. I loved her so much.... No dog deserves to go to a place where it will never be loved, but as long as pits are around, stupid cruel people will abuse them to turn them into fighters.
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/21929883/

Ugh....stupid video- stupid humans. I miss her so much.

PariahPoet · Post by **PariahPoet** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:17 am

Well human nature isn't going to change.
And I would never EVER advocate putting down pets. But I do think that instead these cities should insist that the dogs be spayed or neutered.
But as long as humans exist and muscle dogs exist, one is going to hurt the other, and it won't be the dogs doing the hurting.

Shadow Wulf · Post by **Shadow Wulf** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:27 am

I somehow doubt this law is going to take in place.

I seriously dont believe that banning is the answer.

If anything mabey its the owner that needs to be banned from having dogs, period.

Aki · Post by **Aki** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:46 am

Set wrote:I've heard about this. It's one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard in my life. Banning an entire breed, just because you don't like them? Stupid. I had a dog that most class as a "dangerous" breed, half rottweiler, and she was nothing but a big softie. That dog wouldn't bite someone even if they wanted her to.

I hate the ignortant jackasses who come up with this s***. These people need to be slapped. In case you can't tell, this is something that rubs me the wrong way. I'd have quite a bit to say to those politicians. No moron in a suit is ever going to take one of my animals away from me.

I have to agree.

Also, I don't think banning them because people might abuse them is a viable excuse. Bans have, well, never worked proper. Law-abiding people lose it, while the underground keeps it's stuff because they never followed the law to begin with, so why care about some new law, right? Right.

Even if this breed was totally eliminated, then the people that would normally abuse it would move onto the next one and things would repeat themselves until the only dogs left are Welsh Corgis and s*** and other dogs that would be considered lucky to be as large as a cat.

PariahPoet · Post by **PariahPoet** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:13 am

Shadow Wulf wrote: If anything mabey its the owner that needs to be banned from having dogs, period.

Now there's an idea I could get behind!

Although I'd rather see animal abusers banned from living, but I doubt that would go over too well. ^^

Midnight · Post by **Midnight** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:46 am

PariahPoet wrote:
Shadow Wulf wrote:If anything mabey its the owner that needs to be banned from having dogs, period.
Now there's an idea I could get behind!

They do something like that over here... there's a hell of a lot of bureaucracy to go through before someone can be banned, unfortunately.

As for pit bulls... the problem with the poor things is that (here, at least) most of them are owned either by people who think that having a fighting dog is "cool", or else by people who have them as a fashion accessory. Neither of which type of owner would be at all conducive to the dog's long-term mental health.

PariahPoet · Post by **PariahPoet** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 11:21 am

Exactly! In my area, tha bad owners by far outweigh the good.

http://www.realpitbull.com/abuse.html
(warning, these images and stories are heartbreaking)

DarkShadow · Post by **DarkShadow** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:47 pm

PariahPoet wrote:Exactly! In my area, tha bad owners by far outweigh the good.

http://www.realpitbull.com/abuse.html
(warning, these images and stories are heartbreaking)

Thats so sad..

DarkShadow · Post by **DarkShadow** » Sat Apr 21, 2007 3:57 pm

Z wrote:Pit Bull Problem video i created on October 2004.

wow Z..I never heard anything more true about the "problem." Thanks for posting this.

Kirk Hammett · Post by **Kirk Hammett** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:04 am

I think if people stopped selectively breeding violent traits in these breeds, then these breeds could be safe, and such a stupid law could be prevented.

I think over here, "dangerous" dogs or temperamental dogs have to be muzzled. It's partially breed specific but not always breed specific. However, it's very difficult to tell whether the dog is dangerous.

For example, a boxer attacked my dog and nearly killed him. I've never been so upset and scared for my pup in my life. Rusty is a strong dog, but a docile one. Thing is, this boxer had NEVER attacked a dog or human in his life. Gentle, sweet dog. As was mine. Mine snarled too. Both attacked each other. Neither given to any sort of violence.

So what went wrong? Humans cannot exactly know what these dogs were saying to each other. They might not be using some high tech language, but they have a language, they are not idiots.

I think owning any breed of dog is a big responsibility and that it is up to the owner/partner (Never liked the word owner) to be ready for these incidents. If your dog's parentage is a violent one, consider avoiding the puppies or training them properly. If you got your dog from the pound, proper training and advice on how to become the alpha. A dog is a pack animal. Humans are also social animals.

I don't think this is a good legislation. I believe the problem lies elsewhere. Yes, some breeds are more given to violence. This violence can be bred out of them eventually, you cannot just discard the puppies. They are living beings. Where are the banned animals going to go? I can see both points of view but it's not going to work by banning them.

Plus, what about other breeds? A Jack Russell savaged my mother's leg. She's been attacked by a couple of them. But, we've both met some gentle, sweet Jack Russell's, like Andy's dog.

DarkShadow · Post by **DarkShadow** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 12:51 am

This can be true as well, Kirk. Your points are good. However, some people refuse to listen to all the facts. I tried explaining to one of my friends about it, and they would not listen to me. They were convinced that it was ALL the dog's problem and so on.

Baphnedia · Post by **Baphnedia** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:03 am

They are lazy and like to take the easy way out - to not admit that their conclusion after seeing one side of the story might not be complete...

To admit that their mind may have to change on a subject, some perceive as a sign of weakness. These people are sometimes on all or any side of an argument. To be unwavering, or inflexible makes one brittle, and many don't understand that making laws about something should be the last resort, not the first 'solution'.

Set · Post by **Set** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 1:24 pm

Kirk Hammett wrote:If your dog's parentage is a violent one, consider avoiding the puppies or training them properly.

Offspring =/= parent. Just because a pup comes from a certain background doesn't mean it will be anything like its mother or father. They're not miniature clones. So many people fail to realize that, both with animals AND humans, and it creates quite a good number of unnecessary problems. Proper training is a must for any dog, not just ones with "violent" backgrounds or who came from the pound.

One more thing. Abuse isn't always the cause of violence in dogs. The most neurotic, agressive, vicious dogs I've seen have all been small, spoiled dogs. Chihuahuas mostly. Small dogs tend to develop problems. Not because they're abused, but because they're pampered far too much. I've never seen anything more inclined to bite than a spoiled Chihuahua.

PariahPoet · Post by **PariahPoet** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 3:54 pm

Set wrote:
Kirk Hammett wrote:If your dog's parentage is a violent one, consider avoiding the puppies or training them properly.
Offspring =/= parent. Just because a pup comes from a certain background doesn't mean it will be anything like its mother or father. They're not miniature clones. So many people fail to realize that, both with animals AND humans, and it creates quite a good number of unnecessary problems. Proper training is a must for any dog, not just ones with "violent" backgrounds or who came from the pound.

One more thing. Abuse isn't always the cause of violence in dogs. The most neurotic, agressive, vicious dogs I've seen have all been small, spoiled dogs. Chihuahuas mostly. Small dogs tend to develop problems. Not because they're abused, but because they're pampered far too much. I've never seen anything more inclined to bite than a spoiled Chihuahua.

No offspring are not clones of the parent, but in dogs and people genetics do have a big influence on temperment.
An individual from aggressive parents is much more likely to show aggression than an individual from non-aggressive parents. Even if the offspring is raised in a good environment, although a bad one will make it even worse.

Baphnedia · Post by **Baphnedia** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 9:13 pm

I'll halfway agree on temperment - most Irishmen I meet claim that they suck at anger management because they're Irish. But, that's partially a culture thing - less how they're wired. Genetics describe the hardware. What software is running on it is up to the end user (or to the Administrator).

Kirk Hammett · Post by **Kirk Hammett** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:39 pm

Set wrote:
Kirk Hammett wrote:If your dog's parentage is a violent one, consider avoiding the puppies or training them properly.
Offspring =/= parent. Just because a pup comes from a certain background doesn't mean it will be anything like its mother or father. They're not miniature clones. So many people fail to realize that, both with animals AND humans, and it creates quite a good number of unnecessary problems. Proper training is a must for any dog, not just ones with "violent" backgrounds or who came from the pound.

One more thing. Abuse isn't always the cause of violence in dogs. The most neurotic, agressive, vicious dogs I've seen have all been small, spoiled dogs. Chihuahuas mostly. Small dogs tend to develop problems. Not because they're abused, but because they're pampered far too much. I've never seen anything more inclined to bite than a spoiled Chihuahua.

What Pariah Poet said is what I meant.

Parentage is part of the nature vs nurture argument. Both sides have an influence. Sometimes, parentage might not have a big influence. Sometimes, it does. I've known and had many dogs in the past three decades and this is just the conclusion I have come to. Some dogs are inherently nervous also. But, you are correct also that dogs which are spoiled or allowed to exhibit unwanted behaviour, much like human children, can also have an impact.

I did not suggest that they are miniature clones - there is no such thing; merely that it is something to look out for and be aware of. Breeders often have no idea what they are doing.

PariahPoet · Post by **PariahPoet** » Sun Apr 22, 2007 11:28 pm

Kirk Hammett wrote:Breeders often have no idea what they are doing.

Unfortunately so. That's why I refuse to buy a purebred dog. Too many breeders are just concerned about making money and don't carea about their animals. I guess I would buy a dog if I could meet the breeder and tour the place so I could see for myself if they were legit. But I don't want to give business to someone who may or may not take care of their animals.

Midnight · Post by **Midnight** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:48 am

Good points. And another problem with pure-bred dogs is I keep hearing about genetic problems they have... Like how german shepherds have hip defects. (I think that's the breed and the problem). That sort of stuff.

Z... I'm on a crap connection and videos are simply not possible to download... is there a transcription of the script anywhere? or even some stills?

Midnight · Post by **Midnight** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:08 am

Thanks very much for that, Z. A lot of good stuff there to think about.

I'd have to say that pit bulls in America are probably actually better off than those in NZ... they have been prominent in dog attack reports over here, which I'd guess has less to do with problems with the breed than problems with the owners... like I was trying to say above, some people who should never be entrusted with any dog had pit bulls because they were "cool" or made the owners look "tough" and the inevitable happened: damaged dogs and bitten people. So they got not so much banned as stifled over here... they had to be muzzled and neutered and as a result they're vanishing. So now the worthless owners are going for Staffies and Rotties and the breeds change while the story remains the same. (There was an incident just last week where someone's pet dog killed a friend of the family. I can't remember what breed it was but it wasn't a pit bull... I think it was a Rottie cross. So the family of the deceased are reported as saying stuff along the lines of how they feel sorry for the poor owner that her dogs had to be destroyed... me, I've got thoughts about the owner that would burn the ears of the moderators here and probably be a bit unhelpful as the matter is still sub judice.)

Searif · Post by **Searif** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:11 pm

pitbulls were banned in ontario, because the premier is a douche -.-

its mainly because its not human, they think that theres no reason to give the dogs rights. pisses me off really.

Plus most people who buy pitbulls do not plan on it being a "family dog" they plan on it being a gaurd dog or fighting dog =.=

Kirk Hammett · Post by **Kirk Hammett** » Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:36 pm

PariahPoet wrote:
Kirk Hammett wrote:Breeders often have no idea what they are doing.
Unfortunately so. That's why I refuse to buy a purebred dog. Too many breeders are just concerned about making money and don't carea about their animals. I guess I would buy a dog if I could meet the breeder and tour the place so I could see for myself if they were legit. But I don't want to give business to someone who may or may not take care of their animals.

I'm the same; my Rusty is a mutt

. I prefer to buy from rescue shelters anyway, purebred or not, especially from kill shelters

.