The Magic Of Shapeshifting

Set · Post by **Set** » Mon May 30, 2005 2:51 pm

Has anyone here read a book called The Magick Of Shapeshifting by Rosalyn Greene? If so what'd you think about it? Alot of therians really hate this book. I remember it being described as a worthless piece of plagarized trash. I found it to be interesting at the very least. I was just curious as to everyone's opinion on it. (Everyone except Jakkal anyway. *shoos Jakkal away* No rants from you!)

Ochiba · Post by **Ochiba** » Mon May 30, 2005 4:30 pm

I never fully read it, but found it at my local bookstore and skimmed through it. I enjoyed it really, only because I myself know weres exsist.

Goldenwolf · Post by **Goldenwolf** » Tue May 31, 2005 3:49 am

I'm one of those therians that really, really think this book isn't good for anything other than a few cheap laughs. So no further comment

SnowWalker · Post by **SnowWalker** » Tue May 31, 2005 5:49 pm

I seriously hope I'm not the only person (and therian to boot) who enjoys this book...

~Snowy

Scott Gardener · Post by **Scott Gardener** » Tue May 31, 2005 6:07 pm

I haven't seen it yet, but I'll give it a look. It looks like one of those love it or hate it things, where no one can be indifferent, and that's a sign that there's something to be learned either way.

Jakkal · Post by **Jakkal** » Tue May 31, 2005 6:44 pm

As someone that was plagurized by this book, you can imagine my opinion of it isn't very high. It's actually the most godawful thing that COULD be written from the standpoint of the shifter community. It's not even worth the paper it's printed on. Her 'stories' are laughable and most likely fiction. She's stolen a lot of information from shifters.org and other sites. And then she had the nerve to tell people that the 'shifter' community is a cult, to avoid it at all costs, and to find 'real' info on shifters to hang out with furries.

Obviously the woman is a fraud and should be flogged for bringing in even more posers to the community at large.

Ochiba · Post by **Ochiba** » Tue May 31, 2005 11:34 pm

Eeek you people get offened easily. Sometimes this form really seems like you all have something up your....

all not intended to offend. Sorry!
*skips off*

Goldenwolf · Post by **Goldenwolf** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:48 am

Ig you were a therian and in our community, you would understand.

Baphnedia · Post by **Baphnedia** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 11:23 am

Simply put (as I myself fall under 'Other'), there's a LOT of history and hatreds run long and deep. As far as myself, I tend just to stay out of it (I know what I am and that's all I care about - Introspection, some call it), and get on with my life.

I do not wash my hands of Therianthropy, or similar beliefs that I hold myself, I just don't put them on display. It's my way of dealing with the situation without getting stuck with a lot of angst and/or regret.

Set · Post by **Set** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 3:38 pm

Goldenwolf wrote:Ig you were a therian and in our community, you would understand.

I am (well, it's closer to otherkin but still) and I've been around the community for a few years now and I don't understand it. I'm not exactly sure what was plagarized as no examples were ever offered, and honestly I didn't think it was that bad. It's like furries having a fit over the CSI Fur and Loathing episode. I'm a furry and I saw it, and after I did the thought in my head was "What's the big deal? This isn't anything to make such a fuss over."

Arania · Post by **Arania** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 4:33 pm

Reilune wrote:
Goldenwolf wrote:Ig you were a therian and in our community, you would understand.
I am (well, it's closer to otherkin but still) and I've been around the community for a few years now and I don't understand it. I'm not exactly sure what was plagarized as no examples were ever offered, and honestly I didn't think it was that bad. It's like furries having a fit over the CSI Fur and Loathing episode. I'm a furry and I saw it, and after I did the thought in my head was "What's the big deal? This isn't anything to make such a fuss over."

I think the main problem is the NON furries who watch that and that is their first and only exposure to the concept of furries - which, you will have to admit, isn't the most understanding initial exposure to a fringe group that most people would view as weird even if presented carefully. And then they see artwork that you do and ask if you're one of "Those weird furry people". I have nothing against furries at all - I just feel sorry for the negative exposure that they've gotten.

And it sounds like a very similar instance with this book - which I have not myself read, but I can imagine...

outwarddoodles · Post by **outwarddoodles** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 7:14 pm

Yes, as a therian I find the people offensive too. Mainly we just dislike the people running into our forums. I have not read the book but personaly if that can be printed then its most likly showing kids and getting them into stuff.

Scott Gardener · Post by **Scott Gardener** » Wed Jun 01, 2005 9:04 pm

On "Fur and Loathing in Las Vegas":

I thought it was a great episode. It was done with such humor, compared to the usual grit of CSI (like, for instance, the recent, highly memorable buried alive episode directed by none other than Pulp Fiction's Quentin Tarantino). Though I'm more therian than furry, I consider myself close enough to know whether or not I should have been embarrased or offended, and I wasn't.

On cutting and pasting Jakkal:

OK, I'm avoiding it. Though I am a follower of creative commons philosophy and the open source movement, I also recognize the concepts of due credit and paying the professional artist. With some confirmation or corroboration that the work is an illegitimate copy, I'll put it in the same ranks as I would a BitTorrent of Freeborn (assuming that BitTorrent is still around in late 2006).

Jakkal · Post by **Jakkal** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 12:53 am

The problem with The Magic Of Shapeshifting is that it has information on physical shifting, and supposedly information from "physical shifters" with no realiable source of information. She didn't list these supposed p-shifters, which lead most of us to believe that she either made the accounts up herself, or she picked off some of the whackos in the community.

Her book plagurized the community at large, including Shifters.Org which is a respository of information for therians. She's stolen a lot of the terms without giving any credit. These were terms that -we- coined and -she- did not. It doesn't matter if the terms are mostly descriptive terms, the point is she didn't make them, nor did she give ANY site AT ALL credit for the terms. Most of what was ripped off was taken from Shifters.Org and the Shapeshifter's Handbook. Shifting terms, as well as types of therianthropy were stolen in her book. Some of the descriptions she has for types of shifts that she goes to in depth in the book were almost verbatim of what was listed on SO. It was mostly the glossary that was stolen however.

In the bibliography there are -no- internet sites listed for her works. Want a good example of what was ripped off? Phenotype - major misnomer in the community. There's no way she could have gotten THAT word from anywhere OTHER than the online community, but she gave NO credit for it. Not even a mention of AHWw. She also stole bilocation shifting, astral shifting, aural shifting, 'werewoof' - which was mine personally, polywere, wereside - a term I coined to get away from phenotype, "Spiritual Therianthropy" which DID originate on AHWW, ... need I go on?

Get to the back of the book where you'd expect credit for the terms she uses, and she says the following:

The shifter movement, as I write this, is a fledgling movement. It exists as a subgroup within the furry movement, or as scattered, separate packs of three to five shifters who have found each other outside any larger movement.

She first insinuates that we are part of the furries, which AHWw never was. While much of the community in the early-mid 90's were in the furry groups as well, AHWw was independant. She could not have gotten the terms she uses without knowing of AHWw, not even from the furry lifestylers.

Moving on

To find proof of the existance of the shifter movement, one only has to look at furry culture to quickly stumble across shifters. One place to look is the Internet. The major furry newsgroups are news://alt.fan.furry and news://alt.lifestyle.furry. Try any major search engine, using terms such as "furry resources," "Furry lifestyle," Furry conventions," "furry art" or "personal furries" as keywords.

Notice how she ignores the major therian communities altogether. She likely didn't want people to find out where she stole her information. She then insinuates once again that therians are furries.

Try entering keywords that relate very specifically to the shifter movement, such as "Spiritual therianthropy," "wereside," "spiritual shapeshifting," "mental shifter," or "astral shifting." If you don't limit your search, you'll generate thousands of ordinary, non-shifter werewolf pages. Be warned, however, that the portion of the shifter movement that exists on the internet is a very badly organized, has a dubious reputation, and is, sadly, often a "fishing group" for all sorts of strange cults.

And there you have it folks. She just told people to try searching for real therian resources, but then warned that the therian community should be avoided and is fully of insane cultists.

And people wonder why I despise the very existance of this book?

And if you wonder where I'm quoting this from, I have the book right here, right infront of me.

I was around, part of the therian community when this book was being written. What she's written is a book of lies and deception. Even the worst of the worst places weren't in full force at the time this book came out, including all the awful yahoo groups out there. If you typed in therianthropy at the time, Shifters.org and Therianthropy.Org would have been one of the first sites you came across. In addition to those were a slew of other great resource sites including: The Wereweb, RSCreation's Werewolfpage, The Shapeshifter's Handbook, Lycanthrope.org, therianthropes.org, Werenet, The Wolf Inside and a slew of others that my pea-brain won't allow me to recall at the moment.

Again, I Find her to be a fraud, a liar, and a thief.

Baphnedia · Post by **Baphnedia** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 8:10 am

One more reason I follow Karma around like a lap dog. That is sad to hear (I have generally avoided the major Draconity sites because I'm tired of trolls), though I interact with a few on a one-on-one basis.

A community is not weak if it's a whole bunch of small groups interacting with one another, it helps keep you under the radar. Now, as for what I'm saying, and my personal beliefs, I could very well lose my job.

Jakkal, I sympathize with you on that (I haven't read the book, and I'd read it, should I feel the need to get pissed off - thankfully, my day job has plenty on my plate to get pissed off about.

I've cut my rant short (regarding freedom of religion in the US military - or the lack thereof), for all your reading pleasures. There used to be a site with tons of such rants, and if I'm lucky, I might be able to recover some of them.

Anyhow, I wanted to mention that often, when I have gone over to furry, therian and otherkin boards and communities over the past few years, everyone is always in an uproar about image.

Yes, the media screws with our image (collectively). Authors, TV, radio. It doesn't really matter does it? I've learned that most people will take learning about the communities in small chunks, and most of their opinions will be based on who they know is in the community, and what sort of person that is. Generally, if we keep the moral highground in most of what we do (and set the example), most of the media BS we get will be treated as media BS at the ground level.

You'd quote a friend in a debate because you value his or her opinion. The only time that you quote a celebrity or historical figure is if their opinion is compatible with yours.

Jakkal · Post by **Jakkal** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 2:57 pm

Actually I don't really care what our image is. A lot of people think therianthropy.org is an elistist grouping of therians. Frankly they can continue to think that way. If they aren't willing to logically back up their statements, then they'll hardly be welcome.

The problem that I have is the book proliferates posers. And posers in the werecommunity is a ravaging disease that should be stopped, with education on the subject, not encouraged - by a book that pretends to educate on the subject.

Even if therianthropy just exists in our heads, there is an observable phenomenon at work here. People are coming together from all over the globe, that have never heard of therianthropy, thinking they are alone, and knowing deep down they are some kind of animal. This is a fact. The book, which should have been an aid to people outside of the internet, just became another fictional, worthless new-age book that did nothing but bring in people that think we can teach them how to p-shift, or if they sit down, close their eyes and think about an animal they can be it, spiritually.

Screw what people think about therianthropy. Stop leading these kids on with the book. It may be fun to pretend your spiritual essence is a wolf now - but down the road it can be very, personally, damaging. <- This is what we're trying to prevent.

outwarddoodles · Post by **outwarddoodles** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 4:59 pm

I agree with Jakkal. As I said it's damaging some people's minds with crud and making people think they're aloud to run around and be a 'p-shifter'. It just starts strange things and make people beleive strange things that are all just a load of crud.

Baphnedia · Post by **Baphnedia** » Thu Jun 02, 2005 9:27 pm

I agree too. The other thing is when they finally come to terms with their inability to p-shift, then they are stuck wondering what other delusions they've been living.

Jamie · Post by **Jamie** » Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:02 pm

There are plenty of other books by persons who claim that werewolves are real. I have a whole list of such books on my website, ranging from really fundamental Christians who are scared sh**less of werewolves to people who think all world leaders are shapeshifters who turn into reptiles. If you dig deep enough, you can find any flavor of belief you can imagine.

Ozone Grif · Post by **Ozone Grif** » Sat Jun 11, 2005 5:37 pm

The shifter movement, as I write this, is a fledgling movement. It exists as a subgroup within the furry movement, or as scattered, separate packs of three to five shifters who have found each other outside any larger movement.

Wow

Considering Therians as a subgroup of Furry... Isn't it an insult ?
I would enjoy reading that book just to have a good laugh !

Apharoh · Post by **Apharoh** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:22 pm

GET OUT OF MY HEAD. MY I.Q. IS LOW ENOUGH... OUT OUT OUT.

Set · Post by **Set** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 1:41 pm

Ozone Grif wrote:Considering Therians as a subgroup of Furry... Isn't it an insult ?

I don't see why it would be. I can understand not wanting to be seen as a subgroup of Furry, as they are very different things, but the reason why everyone has such a fit when therians are called furries doesn't make sense to me. Being furry is no more wrong than liking werewolf movies. And therians will generally tell you they have no problem with furries and that it's just a stereotype, but when they're called such by people who have yet to learn of the differences they have an absolute fit. It's quite amusing, really. Then there's the subject of furry lifestylers, which in some way can be considered the same thing as therianthropy depending on the individual.

I have had very bad experiences with therians in general. Otherkin too. Hence why I've abandoned their forums. I went back this year and it hasn't changed, so I left again.

And like I said, I'm a furry. So watch your tongue or lose it...

Scott Gardener · Post by **Scott Gardener** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 8:29 pm

Semantics and egoes don't mix very well. I see no reason to divide the therian and furry communities. They're an evolutionary convergence--that is, they have independently produced the same end result, kind of like how bats and birds both evolved wings. (Granted, the analogy breaks down when one points out that bats and birds can't mate with each other, except perhaps in furry art.)

Oddly enough, I don't see any furries adamantly insisting they're in no way related to the therians. It doesn't happen. I guess overall, therians tend to be more faux arrogant--putting forth the appearance of arrogance to hide some deep-seated insecurity.

Note that this is just a tendancy. Don't take that as a generalized statement or a personal insult to any therians out there, as I'm a therian myself, and I don't see myself having that tendancy.

Vuldari · Post by **Vuldari** » Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:09 pm

I think the main reason why alot of Therians get angry when described as "esentially the same thing as a Furry", is that it leads people who don't know to assume then that a "Therian" is nothing more than a Furry extremist ... someone who has chosen to take thier "Fandom" of Anthropomorphic animals to a Spiritual level...which is far, FAR from the truth.

Being a Furry can NOT lead to becoming a Therian...no matter how much the person may like a perticular animal. However, casually throwing "Furries" and "Therians" into the same category tends to lead many people to believe that is the case. ...so all these people are assuming that Therians are just Elite "Super Furries" which is, of course, a huge load of Bull S***.

...wouldn't you be mad if, whenever you tell someone that you are a "Werewolf Fan", they would always assume that you mean that you have the Psycological Disorder-form of Lycantropy? (the one where you only THINK you turn into an animal and act ferral...basicly, a kind of insanity)

No matter how hard you try to explain to them that you are just a fan of the Creature in Fiction and Art, they would refuse to believe you.

"...You're just stuck-up and think you are better than the others, because you say you know better and don't go all ferral, but you are really just the same. You both want to turn into animals, so you are really just the same. ...there is no real difference between a "Werwolf Fan" and one of those "Lycanthopy Disorder" people..."

Nonsense, right?

Well...would't YOU get mad if people kept making this false assumption?

I know I would.

Set · Post by **Set** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 12:04 pm

Vuldari wrote:...wouldn't you be mad if, whenever you tell someone that you are a "Werewolf Fan", they would always assume that you mean that you have the Psycological Disorder-form of Lycantropy? (the one where you only THINK you turn into an animal and act ferral...basicly, a kind of insanity)

Not really. People think I'm nuts anyway.

Vuldari wrote:No matter how hard you try to explain to them that you are just a fan of the Creature in Fiction and Art, they would refuse to believe you.

Which is a big problem when people who have absolutely no knowledge of the furry fandom talk to someone who IS a furry. Most people assume furry is just a sexual fetish and that we're all perverts. Convincing people otherwise is quite a chore. Hence why most are "closet furries", telling no one of their connection with the fandom.

Vuldari wrote:Well...would't YOU get mad if people kept making this false assumption? I know I would.

Well being therian/otherkin and a werewolf fan myself I can quite easily say...NO. Jeez, what bit you on the tail? I don't see the point of making such a big deal over this. Over the book, people putting therians and furries in the same category...all I see here is people who are looking for an excuse to complain. Like old people, not happy unless they complain.

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