Fueling the change.

[Spiritbw]

Didn't really see anything in a a search that came up with something like this so here goes:

How exactly does a Werewolf fuel the change? I mean your growing a whole fur coat, completely growing new bones and teeth in the shift form one form to the next, where does the material/energy come from? I read one story long ago where the heroine, a werewolf herself, figured it was the reason why werewolves are suppose to be ravenous creatures in so many myths. You eat alot to keep the body fueled through the changes and even healing of wounds. In modern times it's not such a problem as most places have plenty of food of all sorts. Just means a were spends a bit more of the budget on snacks and doesn't have to worry so much about packing on the pounds.

Your thoughts?

Note: edited for spelling.

[RedEye]

Because of the Shift, and their metabolism; Werewolves are generally considered to need one and one-half to twice the calories per day of a Smoothskin.

According to legends, Werewolves would often devour an entire sheep after they shifted. Fiber!

I suspect that a modern Werewolf would have food available to hand for "apres' Shift noshing"...and remember: Kibble and those dog patties would do the trick. They might even taste good, with a wolf's nose for flavor creation.

[LunarCarnivore]

I gotta agree that werewolves would eat more, but also i think that magic should have some say, so calories arent always an issue.

[Howlitzer]

yeah but if you're specifically trying to come up with an even scientifically plausible explanation for the transformation, magic will unfortunately have to be thrown out the window.

You sure it would be 1 1/2 to 2 times the normal Calorie intake? Given the circumstances that sounds low.... I mean, the person's whole body is changing pretty dramatically, it seems like that would require more than twice the average daily Calorie intake.

[RedEye]

That's for daily nutrition. The Shift can consume huge amounts of energy, but it lasts at most (in my Wulfen) 90 seconds; and that's for a newly Crossed Over Wulf. Normal shift time is in the neighborhood of 60 seconds for a Crosser ( the longer they've been Wulfen, the easier and faster it gets) and around 40 seconds for a young, multi-generational Werewolf.
The Shift is very energy intensive, and requires a great deal of energy to accomplish, but it's over in less than two minutes. Crossers (People who have Crossed over from Smoothskin to Wulfen) typically take the longest to Shift, although the time involved gets reduced as the body becomes accustomed to Shifting's particular energy demands.
Werewolves also have fat stores on the inside of the thighs and under the skin of the back when in Smooth. There is just about enough food energy there for a Shift and a Reversion. Eating a properly balanced diet will maintain these fat areas (white fat=immediate energy). This makes Wulfen-in-Smooth look buffed just a bit and acts as a sort of blanket in their Fur to help them stay warm in colder climates.
The best non-biological analogy I can think of is "Shifting" is like "Passing Gear" in a car; lots of power, but you can almost see the gas gauge drop.

[Rosiewolf]

Since Changing would take a lot of energy. Would staying in the wolf form, have a limited time amount? Or would all the energy just go to the Change. I know that the person after the Change would fell completely exhausted from the beginning of transformation, but would just being a wolf take up energy as well?

[Spiritbw]

I would imagine the energy needs are really just for the change. once shifted over there would be no more need for energy than any other time. Your body holds it's form pretty well after all, can't see why once the shift was done it would still be high energy.

[RedEye]

Exactly. Having a body can be considered as a neutral state. The energy demands are what they are for the activity engaged in. As long as you don't Shift or Revert, it doesn't matter if you're Smooth or Wolf; the energy requirements are about the same.

Comes the Shift, though; and things change drastically. Now the body demands 150% of the energy it usually does and maybe more than it has. Toss in an evolutionary safety valve: If you don't have enough oomph to Shift or Revert, you can't. Period. The Werewolves that did this ran out of energy partway through the activity and died; and they had fewer babies than the ones that had the "safety" stopper as a result.
Yeah, you maybe can't Shift if you're too hungry, tired, or injured. Bummer, but you stay alive that way.

Normally, a Shift might demand twice the Werewolf's available energy, but since the Shift doesn't take that long; the demand is in fact a lot less than the limit the Werewolf's body can deliver.
It's like Shifting to Pass a car... Your engine runs very fast for maybe twenty seconds, then slows down. At the high speed it runs for the actual passing maneuver, it would overheat and maybe bust something pretty soon from the extra strain...but the strain doesn't last that long, and so nothing overheats and nothing busts.
That's one Shift explaining another...

[Rosiewolf]

If you didn't have enough energy to fully change, could you be stuck halfway, or just not change at all?

[RedEye]

In my stories, not at all. Getting stuck halfway through might kill you, for one thing. For another, you might not be able to get to another energy supply (like food) in the semi-altered state you're in. If you got stuck partway through muzzle formation; you might not be able to eat or drink!
I'm not saying it couldn't happen that way, but think: Who would have more babies that lived to reproduce; the "partwayers" or the all-or-nothing group?
Do you see my logic?

[Terastas]

Well, for the physical change, I usually argue that the werewolf's extra mass isn't coming from anywhere: it's the already existing parts changing and possibly giving the appearance of a change in mass. The way I write it, a werewolf might look larger due to a change in mass or posture, but he still weighs more or less the same.

That just leaves a chemical change, which I attribute primarily to the virus. That's the easy way to go about it anyway: that the change is fueled by a foreign substance already in the body.

Mind you I'm being lazy and to the point like this because I've only got access to the Internet for a few minutes tonight so I don't have time to expand any more on that. Cheers everybody, hope to be back soon.

[LunarCarnivore]

if we're talking science, id say the extra mass comes from cell generation, like normal growing but at an extremely accelerated rate. thats ALOT of calories, like 10x not 1 1/2x
lol

[Howlitzer]

well...no. You can't have a change in mass. The total mass of your body can't INCREASE unless you eat something. Your body doesn't store pure energy, it stores fuel in the form of different materials in the body, such as fat or protein. It then CONVERTS these materials into other materials to run different processes in the body.

So, rapid cell generation wouldn't increase your body mass, it would simply use up massive amounts of your body's stored fuel and building materials.

(I might add that I notice people are confusing mass, weight, and size. For all intensive purposes, mass and weight aren't going to magically change...whereas size can.)

Now, the way i think of it.... if werewolf physiology is designed specifically for this transformation, it will most likely be much less energy draining than if you were to try to rapidly transform a normal human body...obviously werewolf physiology will have to be FAR different from both a human and a wolf, not necessarily in outward appearance but definitely on the inside.

A werewolf body would have to have much more efficient energy storage methods, and the transformation would have to involve as little rapid cell generation as possible, since this would use up the most of the body's stored materials... in fact, changing the bone structure might work in an entirely different way if it's meant to be done so rapidly.... instead of osteoblasts and osteoclasts dissolving and re-forming bone, werewolf bones could work like some form of highly rigid, calcified muscular structure of sorts that is capable of "locking" into different forms, while easily changing between them.

That way, one of the more difficult parts of the transformation becomes almost as simple as flexing a muscle.

So yeah, sorry about that, I talk too much...back to the whole mass thing.You can't increase it without consuming raw materials in the process. Depending on the shifting of bones and muscle in the transformation, yes the werewolf form may look more bulky than the human form (especially with fur)... but think of it this way. If we're talking about someone of approximately average weight, say a 180 pound man.... that is a HUGE wolf.

Also... humans have more muscle than wolves in relation to their size... but we're not necessarily physically stronger than a wolf...or many other animals with "less" muscle than us, such as orangutans (which can easily dismember a human with their arms). In these animals, their muscles are much more efficient, much stronger for their size. So you wouldn't need to have a werewolf looking like a body builder for it to be physically capable of ripping a person to shreds...nor would you even need an increase in muscle mass during the transformation. If the werewolf had a human's normal muscle mass and the muscle strength of any other animal, it'd easily be a formidable creature.

[Rosiewolf]

In my stories, not at all. Getting stuck halfway through might kill you, for one thing. For another, you might not be able to get to another energy supply (like food) in the semi-altered state you're in. If you got stuck partway through muzzle formation; you might not be able to eat or drink!
I'm not saying it couldn't happen that way, but think: Who would have more babies that lived to reproduce; the "partwayers" or the all-or-nothing group?
Do you see my logic?

Yes I do. But when you mean "partwayers" are you a) saying that they couldn't exist (like if they were to naturally exist, and not be part of a Were's change) or b) are you talking about something like, "survival of the fittest" where that breed (I am saying this as if the mix between a human and a wolf were to exist as a natural animal) would die out. (I just hope b made sense.)

[RedEye]

Here is Natural Selection, the engine that drives Evolution:
Everybody has sex and makes babies. Some babies die out befrore thay are old enough to reproduce. If that happens enough to enough babies in a given line, that line goes extinct. The line that has the greatest number of babies that have more babies that have even more babies--that line is doninant. That's evolution.

Now, a Wulf that can Shift part way is going to be at a disadvantage, eventually. The villagers will catch them, if nothing else, because a partway shift (as opposed to a Panic shift) reduces the person's ability to get food and energy. They will be more delicate. They will not reproduce as vigorously, because shifting partway is a good way to die. The part-way shift happens because the Wulf has run out of "shift energy"-if there is a separate energy just for shifting, otherwise they run out of bodily energy and are dead.
The all or nothing crew don't have that problem: they either shift or they don't.
That's simpler, and nature likes simplicity.

Shifting part way increases the organism's level of risk. Risk kills. Therefore, partway shifting can kill the would-be shifter. The all-or-nothing group doesn't have this problem.
That's what I'm saying...that's my opinion.

[Howlitzer]

<spock voice>

sounds logical, Captain

</spock voice>

really...it does.

[RedEye]

Remember, this isn't a Panic-Shift, because in a way, the shift doesn't stop dead; it just waits until the Wulf is out of danger before completing itself.

Think: Panic Shift = Nitrous Injection. For when you absolutely have to be someplace else, fast.

[Howlitzer]

wait....so how far would a panic-shift go?

Would it be just enough to immediately enhance strength and speed, and then they would have no choice but to find safety and go through the entire shift, or can they shift directly back to human form from a panic-shift? i.e....is the panic-shift an exception to the "all or nothing" rule?

If they had to go through the whole shift after a panic-shift....wouldn't they be unable to go through a panic-shift if they don't have the energy to complete a full shift?

[RedEye]

wait....so how far would a panic-shift go?

Would it be just enough to immediately enhance strength and speed, and then they would have no choice but to find safety and go through the entire shift, or can they shift directly back to human form from a panic-shift? i.e....is the panic-shift an exception to the "all or nothing" rule?

If they had to go through the whole shift after a panic-shift....wouldn't they be unable to go through a panic-shift if they don't have the energy to complete a full shift?

A Panic-Shift goes as far as necessary to get the Werewolf out of immediate percieved danger. Then they shift fully. Not enough gofor a full shift? No Panic Shift, then.

That actually protects the Werewolf, in that it assures there is enough energy to get the hell out of Dodge, then Shift fully because those badguys might still be after you. If you stop partway, the badguys win.

[Howlitzer]

well...then what if it takes more energy than they thought it would to get out of harms way and fully shift? In other words...while fleeing in panic-shift mode, is there a "point of no return"?

When they reached that point, would they just have no choice but to go through with the rest of the shift right then and there?

[RedEye]

Now you get it! My shifts take from twenty-five to forty seconds for lineage werewolves, and up to a minute for Crossers.

Essentially, when the individual reaches a point of percieved safety where they want to stop and do the gasp, gasp gasp routine, the remainder of the Shift hits. Rather hard, too.
Then they go from frightened brillo-face to full were' in the shift's completion. Under adrenalin, this might take all of fifteen seconds.

Then the people chasing them run into a fully shifted really ticked-off Werewolf, with a reaction headache* and a very crappy attitude.

All this is moderated by the hindbrain; the part of the brain that causes a cornered mouse to rip the cat's face off and shove it up the cat's @ss.

*Caused by a combination of very low blood sugar and blood pressure that would make a pumper firetruck envious.
And yeah, they can get angina pectoris at this point, too.

[Howlitzer]

that....didn't really answer my question....

if the person undergoes a panic shift, there's no SUREFIRE way to know exactly how long it will take them to get to that point of "percieved safety"... and thus NO SUREFIRE WAY of knowing how much energy will be used between their "panic shift" and their "point of percieved safety"

i.e. They undergo a panic shift....and wind up using up energy while fleeing that they otherwise would REQUIRE for the shift....

if they can't stop running for too long and use up too much energy while in "panic-shift-mode".....what happens?

Would their body go through with the shift *just* at that point of no return, even if they are STILL running away from danger?

OR is there the possibility of them using up so much energy while evading danger that completing the shift kills them? In that case....the "all or nothing" principal taking over AFTER a panic shift and a long, grueling chase....could cause the very energy-draining-death that it is supposed to prevent....

[RedEye]

that....didn't really answer my question....


if they can't stop running for too long and use up too much energy while in "panic-shift-mode".....what happens?

Would their body go through with the shift *just* at that point of no return, even if they are STILL running away from danger....

OR is there the possibility of them using up so much energy while evading danger that completing the shift kills them?

Either. They might actually finish the shift while still evading. They might also die in the process, but it's unlikely. The shift would force itself, before that happens.

As soon as the immediate danger (a gun) is evaded and some distance gained, as soon as the Wulf slows down, it happens. It's like being clobbered with a sledge hammer. The whole event is to open space and hide so the shift can complete itself.

[Howlitzer]

that....didn't really answer my question....


if they can't stop running for too long and use up too much energy while in "panic-shift-mode".....what happens?

Would their body go through with the shift *just* at that point of no return, even if they are STILL running away from danger....

OR is there the possibility of them using up so much energy while evading danger that completing the shift kills them?

Either. They might actually finish the shift while still evading. They might also die in the process, but it's unlikely. The shift would force itself, before that happens.

As soon as the immediate danger (a gun) is evaded and some distance gained, as soon as the Wulf slows down, it happens. It's like being clobbered with a sledge hammer. The whole event is to open space and hide so the shift can complete itself.

Ok... well if the "panic shift" isn't a complete shift, yet it allows the werewolf to escape faster... then that would suggest that it is an exception to the idea that being in "mid-shift" leaves you weaker and more vulnerable than when you are fully human or fully shifted form... i.e. a "happy medium" of sorts in between the two forms, right?

If that's the case...then wouldn't it make sense that since the "all or nothing" mechanism that forces complete shifts, and PREVENTS them altogether when there is not enough energy.... should allow a shift directly from a "panic shift" back to human form ONLY in the instance that too much energy is used up to complete the shift once they are safe?

I mean...this is a natural mechanism to PREVENT a shift from killing the werewolf....of all the places to have a loophole in the "all or nothing" rule, it should be there.

If anything...from a "natural selection" standpoint.... the "all or nothing" rule you're talking about seems like it shouldn't be quite that simple. Rather than forcing complete shifts once they have begun, but allowing a temporary "panic shift" state.... shouldn't, in the best interests of survival, be more precisely viewed as preventing any shift from going in a direction that will kill the werewolf?

I hope you get what I'm thinking here

[Zire]

the werewolf should have thiker mussles and bones so when the change comes its just like streching not gaining mass from the nothing