Cubs or no cubs?

NightmareHero · Post by **NightmareHero** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:04 am

I think it would humanize the werewolves more if cubs were showen in the movie, who knows, as children, they could be pivotal characters.

Take this for example. A five year old wolf girl goes to kindergarden and makes friends with a human boy, she likes him very much, and askes her mother whether she can bite him to change him. Her mother says no, because the bite could kill him. Through the year she struggles to reveal her true self to the boy, until one day he invites her to a party, which she can't go to because its on a full moon. Regardless. the wolf girl sneaks out in her transformed form and goes to the boys house, determined to reveal herself to him, and make him like her. She sneaks into his room through the window and wakes him up,

Unfortunately the boy does not recognize her, and is frightened by her and screams, the girl runs away traumatized by the incident, with her wolf mother offering her comfort in her arms. The next day at school, the girl meets the boy, but she is saddened that he "rejected" her. He tells the story he told his parents about a child sized "monster" that came into his room. His parents told him it was only a dream. The girl is saddened that he would think of her as a monster, and runs away from him during recess, with tears in her eyes.

This is something that I have never seen before, the torment and guilt felt by a five year old girl for not being accepted by those that she would like to have as friends, because of her nature.

That is emotion, that is drama.

So would anyone approve or be opposed to the idea of wolf cubs in this movie?

Terastas · Post by **Terastas** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:27 am

Children can irritate some viewers, but in this case they would be great sources of drama, humor and a sense of realism.

One idea I came up with last night (but didn't get a chance to post about until now) was that a werewolf pack might encounter a pure-blooded human who, like us, is fascinated by werewolves and their culture, would like to learn more, and possibly even become one if he could. To this, the common procedure would be to leave him uninfected for a month or two, but require him to work for and/or live among them as an Omega. One of his chores to prove his loyalty to the pack might be minding the cubs, who would have had lycanthropy for the entire span of their lives and therefore would see things much differently than we would. That could theoretically have infinite possibilities for both drama and humor.

Another idea I had more on the drama side would be if a werewolf had a day job as a 3rd grade teacher. While her class was taking a test, she could stand behind the class with the human omega and whisper to him: "There are four werewolves in this class. Can you tell them apart from the others?"

Lasthowl · Post by **Lasthowl** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:43 am

I generally prefer having the disease's onset come with puberty. Makes sense as new chemicals are being released and the body itself changes.

Also makes this less of a happy cuddly thing and more compelling, even if the kids know it's coming.

WolvenOne · Post by **WolvenOne** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:11 pm

Well, from what I've gathered, the directors are leaning towards werewolves not necceserilly transform during the full moon, but rather having the transformations triggered by strong emotions. It should also be noted that the movie makers seem to be leaning towards werewolfism spreading in much the same way aids does, so there should be kids born with werewolfism.

With that in mind, while I believe there would be werewolf cubs, it's important to note that children have even less controll over thier emotions then adults. I would think they would have to be home-schooled, in order to avoid being discovered.

While it might be an interesting dramatic touch, children would be the ones most likely to reveal werewolfism to the general populace. Therefore werewolves would probably go through great lengths to shlelter them.

One possible scenerio I can imagine along these lines, would be a pack of werewolves breaking into a Hospital in order to take an orphened child of a werewolf. Infact, if such scenerio's happened reletivly often, that might explain some of the legends and such about werewolves stealing up and eating infants during the dark ages.

Calypso Blue · Post by **Calypso Blue** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:45 pm

That tie in kicks serious butt.

CB

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:53 pm

WolvenOne wrote:Well, from what I've gathered, the directors are leaning towards werewolves not necceserilly transform during the full moon, but rather having the transformations triggered by strong emotions. It should also be noted that the movie makers seem to be leaning towards werewolfism spreading in much the same way aids does, so there should be kids born with werewolfism.

With that in mind, while I believe there would be werewolf cubs, it's important to note that children have even less controll over thier emotions then adults. I would think they would have to be home-schooled, in order to avoid being discovered.

While it might be an interesting dramatic touch, children would be the ones most likely to reveal werewolfism to the general populace. Therefore werewolves would probably go through great lengths to shlelter them.

One possible scenerio I can imagine along these lines, would be a pack of werewolves breaking into a Hospital in order to take an orphened child of a werewolf. Infact, if such scenerio's happened reletivly often, that might explain some of the legends and such about werewolves stealing up and eating infants during the dark ages.

In a sense, it's being treated sort of like the HIV virus. Basically the theory i think,I may be wrong, but since people were becoming upset with the transmission through biting, we were toying with the gums bleeding and filling the mouth with the virus. Now this is by no means rock solid, just and idea.

akujiwolf · Post by **akujiwolf** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 1:55 pm

((sorry that was me in the last post. Forgot to log in.))

Lasthowl · Post by **Lasthowl** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:05 pm

Akujiwolf wrote:In a sense, it's being treated sort of like the HIV virus. Basically the theory i think,I may be wrong, but since people were becoming upset with the transmission through biting, we were toying with the gums bleeding and filling the mouth with the virus. Now this is by no means rock solid, just and idea.

Heh.

As I said, I still favor the virus needing certain chemicals in the body to truly transform, which are provfided by puberty.

WolvenOne · Post by **WolvenOne** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 2:55 pm

As I said, I still favor the virus needing certain chemicals in the body to truly transform, which are provfided by puberty.

Since Werewolfism likely hasn't been studied by doctors or scientists in this setting, I would oppose getting too technical in coming up for reasons why the child of a werewolf wouldn't transform immedietly.

That being said, I really don't see any reason to make the first transformation happen at any one specific time period in a young werewolves life. Infact, tying werewolfism in with puberty has been done more then once by other people. Most notably, WhiteWolf Games whom has a certain, history of testiness on certain subjects, so I'd consciously avoid it.

Aside from being original, a little unpredictability on this matter, would make things alot more difficult for the werewolves. They wouldn't exactly know how much time they would have before the werewolf infants first transforms. It could be 6 months old, 6 years old, heck, they may not even have thier first transformation until they're 18.

Adding this little bit of unpredictability, would pretty much force werewolves to always act sooner instead of later whenever a werewolf child is orphened. After all, if the orphened werewolf transforms while it's still in the hospital, it would immedietly be discovered, and therefore it's own life and the secrecy of werewolves would be in danger.

On an related note. I think werewolves should be able to smell the "gift/taint," of the wolf on other werewolves, even if those other werewolves are in human form.

This way, werewolves would have a way of identifying thier own kind, so they wouldn't make the mistake of say, oh, grabbing the wrong child during a rescue mission.

Just picture it, a couple werewolves walking up and down an infantry room, taking deep inhaling sniffs of every infant they come across until they find the one they're looking for. Anybody coming across such a scene, would probably come to the conclusion that the werewolves were sniffing out babies, looking for the most tasty infants. Thus cementing the idea of those werewolf legends about werewolves eating infants. ;)

There is something else that needs to be considered though, that being, why werewolves wouldn't attempt to legally adopt the child. I can see several reasons why they wouldn't, primary among them being the simple fact that there may already be a family member whom isn't a werewolf lined up to take the child. Or perhapes nobody in the pack is eligible to adopt the child. I can think of several reasons why they couldn't simply adopt the child, but if this scenerio is used in a movie, it would have to be explained.

Of course, this is all upto the writers ultimatly.

NightmareHero · Post by **NightmareHero** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:27 pm

Actually this werewolf "virus" would work better if it altered the DNA structure of the individual to allow them to transform into a werewolf, instead of destroying the individual's cells. So I think that the term "virus" would be innappropiate, since it would be associated with the destruction of cell structures, not the enhancement of them. Then again such a tactic was taken in the first Blade movie, and I didn't pay much attention to it, but whatever the case, it should be a trivial topic, not something that is kept in discussion throughout the movie, for fear that the audience may detect the implausiblity in using the word "virus" instead of something else.

Actually, I was thinking, that cubs would be born as werewolves, and would transform every day of a full moon. There wouldn't be so much of a problem with children during the day, since most kids before their teens do not have sexual urges. So the idea of home schooling wouldn't be needed. This would especially be true if the female had a working day job. How would she explain away not showing her child to her coworkers during the day, if before this she has been showing a belly? How would she explain away not haveing her child attend grade school, which I think is mandatory in most states if I assume correctly? The creators have to take this under consideration. I don't think being born a werewolf should portray the children as more uncontrollable than normal children. If there is any irrationality on the child's part, it should only be displayed while in wolf form, not necessarily in human form, when puberity has not taken a hold of the child.

Another point that has to be taken is the transformation; if they have transformed since childbirth, than how would it work for them if it was painful, as some people have suggested? Might not the chances of them dying be increased? That is why I favor a transformation that is at most discomforting to the cubs, at an early age and as adults. You have to think of the werewolves as a species. What do they need to function and survive properly as a species? If they have mated, shouldn't the "virus" passed to their children have changed throughout the generations to allow for the transformations to be more bearable, more comfortable? I can understand a person being bitten not necessarily surviving, but a child that was born this way should have the proper genes and structure to survive.

Lasthowl · Post by **Lasthowl** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:30 pm

But they're not a species. They're a venerial disease

WolvenOne · Post by **WolvenOne** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:47 pm

But they're not a species. They're a venerial disease

Werewolfism is "spread" like a venerial disease. However, it's my understanding that we don't know for sure what it is that causes the curse, as it hasn't be studied by Doctors or scientists.

It's something in the blood, it could be a virus, but it could just as well be an army of microscopic chibi-demons that love to dance the tango.

So while is spreads like a virus, we don't need to have it mimic a virus in every way shape or form.

Actually, I was thinking, that cubs would be born as werewolves, and would transform every day of a full moon. There wouldn't be so much of a problem with children during the day, since most kids before their teens do not have sexual urges.

My understanding is that it isn't sexual urges or any one specific emotion that causes trouble, but instead ANY exceptionally strong emotion. So in my experience, children would have the MOST difficult time controlling thier form, because in my experience, children have little to no controll over thier emotions until they're older.

Oh, and as I've mentioned before, the director seems to be leaning towards the transformations not being directly caused by the full moon.

How would she explain away not haveing her child attend grade school, which I think is mandatory in most states if I assume correctly?

Actually that's not entirely true. You cannot simply pull a child out of school or opt out, but it's my understanding that home schooling is legal is most if not all states at any age. Infact, colleges actually prefer getting home schooled children over people whom went through Public school, because statistically they're far better at independent study, and thus more successful in college.

I don't think being born a werewolf should portray the children as more uncontrollable than normal children.

I agree, however, as I said earlier, children have little to no controll over thier emotions until later in thier life. Trust me, I know, I've spent a lot of time with children in my life and know first how easily children lose controll of thier emotions.

Oh, and on another note, it seems fairly resonable to me to say that somebody born a werewolf would likely handle the transformations better. Maybe not dramatically so, but improvment is still improvment.

NightmareHero · Post by **NightmareHero** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:12 pm

Lasthowl wrote:But they're not a species. They're a venerial disease

If they weren't a new species, then they wouldn't have male and female members, and they wouldn't be able to mate and procreate.

I don't think of werewolfism as a disease, or a curse, but maybe some type of one celled virus that mutated inside of a normal wolf in ages past. The virus took some of the wolf's genes, and was then passed to a human by biting. The virus integrated itself into the human's DNA and thus made the virus AND the wolf DNA a part of the humans genetic makeup, allowing for it to be passed.

A disease implies poor health, and a curse implies doom and gloom. Neither I feel needs to be the case if a werewolf was born like this and has lived a healthy, natural life without too much tragedy. That of course doesn't rule out the possibilty for conflict in the story.

Virus/venerial disease, denotes something that is negative, and realistically speaking, there is no such thing as real "werewolfism" because there has been no documented case where individuals with an overgrowth of hair have actually developed into canine like creatures. Werewolfism in reallife is a nickname given to a genetic disorder in humans who develop an overgrowth of hair over their body, not a transformation into a canine like creature.

I think if this movie is to connect with the audience, and allow the audience to connect with the characters, then there should be no "pity" for the characters that have lived with it all of their lives, maybe some pity however with the newly transformed as they try to cope with the new sensations and the pain. werewolves should not be looked down upon if they are the protagonists, but should dare I say, be admired for their prowess and pressence. The conflict in this story should stem from character motivations such as greed and power, NOT from using a "hereditary virus" as the reason for their motivations, and the basis of conflict in this story, doing so otherwise would cheapen the plot and believabilty, if we are to believe that the intention of the filmmakers is to make werewolves more mainstream, and more "mythical", instead of "horror" creatures

WolvenOne · Post by **WolvenOne** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:24 pm

Hmm... this is perhapes getting a little too heated. Maybe we should all step back for a moment and calm down?

NightmareHero · Post by **NightmareHero** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:26 pm

WolvenOne wrote:
Actually, I was thinking, that cubs would be born as werewolves, and would transform every day of a full moon. There wouldn't be so much of a problem with children during the day, since most kids before their teens do not have sexual urges.
My understanding is that it isn't sexual urges or any one specific emotion that causes trouble, but instead ANY exceptionally strong emotion. So in my experience, children would have the MOST difficult time controlling thier form, because in my experience, children have little to no controll over thier emotions until they're older.

Oh, and as I've mentioned before, the director seems to be leaning towards the transformations not being directly caused by the full moon.

I don't think being born a werewolf should portray the children as more uncontrollable than normal children.
I agree, however, as I said earlier, children have little to no controll over thier emotions until later in thier life. Trust me, I know, I've spent a lot of time with children in my life and know first how easily children lose controll of thier emotions.

Just because they can't control their emotions, doesn't mean that they would be able to transform instantaneousely as children. It could be stated that at an early age children have no ability to transform other than during a full moon, once they get older however, they would be able to will the change.

Just because they may be more emotional doesn't mean they will be able to WILL the change on. And you know that children are impressionable, so they wouldn't want to reveal their "secret" to other children if told repeatidly by their parents not to, even if they got angry, for fear of endangering their kind and themselves.

Besides, why would you want to deprive the audience of something they have never seen before?

that scene could work well at the beginning of the movie with some fine tunning to make it more subtle, and could work well as a romance subplot. In fact, if the creators of the movie do not use this scene in some way as I have described, I feel obliged to make it the basis for the beginning of a romance thriller novel I have in my head. hmmm.......

WolvenOne · Post by **WolvenOne** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:43 pm

Just because they can't control their emotions, doesn't mean that they would be able to transform instantaneousely as children. It could be stated that at an early age children have no ability to transform other than during a full moon, once they get older however, they would be able to will the change.

That's simply too inconsistent with how things are set up with the adults. We really cannot have one system for the adult werewolves and another completly oppisite system for the children simply because it's convenient for one scene.

On another note, I'm not suggesting that they should be able to transform instantainiously. The act of transforming may be, less painful or whatnot for them, but only marginally so, if at all. I can see it being more difficult for children to stop thier transformations once they begin, but that'd make things more difficult for them, not less.

Besides, why would you want to deprive the audience of something they have never seen before?

I'm not trying to deny the audience anything, but it's not my place or yours to write the script for this film. We're only supposed to give our opinions. We're given some lee-way to present scenerio's we may find interesting, but ultimatly it's not our story, it's thiers.

If the creators of the movie do not use this scene in some way as I have described, I feel obliged to make it the basis for the beginning of a romance thriller novel I have in my head. hmmm.......

This sounds more like your idea, your vision, your story. The movie makers have thier own vision, you have yours. So my suggestion is not to wait and start on this novel of yours right now, after all, it's obviously a scenerio you love..

I know the idea of seeing this scene in the big screen may be captivating to you, but you just cannot put that sort of pressure on the movie makers. It's not fair to them, or you.

NightmareHero · Post by **NightmareHero** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:52 pm

Treads Lightly · Post by **Treads Lightly** » Fri Dec 03, 2004 11:41 pm

I like the idea of cubs. It fits with the premise of the lycanthropy being a virus, and it is fresh.

Cubs are universally adored by real wolves, after all they are the future generation. Someone already mentioned that it is the omega whom often ends up being the babysitter while the pack is off hunting.

Would there be advantages or disadvantages to being born with werewolfism?

Since a child’s bones are still growing and somewhat more flexible than an adult’s it would seem that they might be able to shift with less pain.

Perhaps a disadvantage of being a were as a child would be that they could get “stuck” in their were form if they changed too often before their bones are done growing, or they would have growth defects. I am thinking that bone growth when in the were form would either not go away, or would go away. By that I mean that if in their were in their were form long enough to grow an inch, when they shift back their human form would be the same height as when they originally shifted. (this is an exaggerated example for illustrative purposes, but the time they spend as a wolf would be additive presumably) Just a thought. Brings new meaning to the old saying, “if you make that face too much, it'll stick that way.”

WolvenOne · Post by **WolvenOne** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:01 am

I think having a scene with a cub would be fine. However, the film makers do have to focus on making this film scary, maybe not mindless monster killing everybody scary, but still scary too an extent.

If it were up to me, I probably wouldn't make it that scary, but of course I'm not in charge.

Anyhow, the problem with making cubs an major part of the storyline, is, the fact that they're just too adorable, once they come onto the screen, then it's almost impossible to look at werewolves as scary creatures any longer.

If this were an arthouse film, I wouldn't mind that, infact it'd be great to see. However, knowing what I know about the film they're trying to make, I just cannot really back the idea.

Okay, now to move onto a more general discussion about that subject.

Outside of the movie, cubs would be awesome to see, though the being stuck in a form due to transforming a bit too much seems a little harsh in my view. I would think that werekids would have enough troubles without throwing something like that into the mix.

There probably would be advantages to being born with werwolfism, mainly the increased matabolism and quick healing that was mentioned in another topic. That aside, I would think the transition between human and wolfboy would be a bit smoother for somebody born with the ability.

I dunno, I guess my thought on the matter is, that unlike everybody whom was infected, those born as were's were designed from the very beggining to change.

Treads Lightly · Post by **Treads Lightly** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:26 am

WolvenOne wrote: I think having a scene with a cub would be fine. However, the film makers do have to focus on making this film scary, maybe not mindless monster killing everybody scary, but still scary too an extent.

I agree, but our job as fans is to discuss werewolves. Any aspect of werewolves, even if not used in the film, may help the filmmakers make a decision. Plus where else are we going to get a forum to discuss such things with like minded individuals?

I would like to think that a sequel will be a reality as well.

That being said…

You don't think that children aren't scarry?

One interesting aspect of the virus concept is the fact that people can be carriers of a particular virus but not suffer from its effects. Could a person have three children but only one be a werewolf? It might be even more difficult to keep the human children from revealing their brother or sister than just keeping a single werechild under control.

WolvenOne · Post by **WolvenOne** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 12:55 am

You don't think that children aren't scarry?

Only if it's a group of children and if thier wieght combined outwieghs me. ;)

I agree, but our job as fans is to discuss werewolves. Any aspect of werewolves, even if not used in the film, may help the filmmakers make a decision. Plus where else are we going to get a forum to discuss such things with like minded individuals?

This is true and I do apoligize for sometimes being a little difficult. I have a very focused personality and occasionally I'll get a bit flustered if I feel people are deviating from a set plan or goal. I'm aware of this and try to consciously over-ride it but sometimes it gets the best of me.

One interesting aspect of the virus concept is the fact that people can be carriers of a particular virus but not suffer from its effects. Could a person have three children but only one be a werewolf? It might be even more difficult to keep the human children from revealing their brother or sister than just keeping a single werechild under control.

It's a very interesting concept, though I'm still struggling with how somebody could have the virus in thier system, how they can pass it on, yet still not be a werewolf. At least some rare people being immune, would be interesting, but there needs to be a very tangible reason for the immunity, and without knowing the exact cause of werewolfism it's difficult to come up with one.

On a side note, I don't think that a huge portion of the general population should be immune. If the immunity were common, then the werewolves wouldn't be nearly as cautious about, biting people, getting to know someone, and stuff like that.

The fact that they are contagious, only serves to isolate them further from humanity then they already are. Thus is adds an interesting psychological twist to thier condition.

NightmareHero · Post by **NightmareHero** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:46 am

http://www.goldenwolfen.com/archive/200 ... odpack.jpg

http://www.goldenwolfen.com/archive/200 ... ndfire.jpg

Lasthowl · Post by **Lasthowl** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 7:39 am

See that specifically is something I'd want to avoid. You'd be getting too much into furry territory there.

Silverclaw · Post by **Silverclaw** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 9:51 am

awww, that picture is sweet

I like the idea of werewolf cubs. It would show that it is heriditary and not just something transmitted by bitting. Also, a lot of interesting scenes could come out of the idea. It could deal with troubles and stresses that they have and their parents.

Lasthowl · Post by **Lasthowl** » Sat Dec 04, 2004 10:26 am

Yes it's a sweet and sentimental picture, but it just smacks too much of tribal White-Wolf style werewolves to me, which is not something I'm into, personally.